Wow… from our favourite sub femalepessimist

[–]TheLimeyCanuck 61 points62 points63 points 2 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]shonmao 28 points29 points30 points 2 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Telopitus 16 points17 points18 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]wienercat -18 points-17 points-16 points 2 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

I'm real sorry. This post ended up being way longer than I intended. Read it or don't. Won't be offended either way.

I think we need to acknowledge a couple things. A lot of the disparity in DV shelters is the amount of incidence and severity.

While yes, women can and do commit DV against men, it's far more likely to be a man committing the DV. So naturally there are more shelters for women. It's also way more likely a man ends up killing or seriously harming a woman in a DV scenario.

Should their be more DV shelters for men? Absolutely. Men need to know they can get away from abusive partners as well. Society also needs to start recognizing that men can be abused by women. It happens all the time.

Men's mental health is absolutely an issue that needs addressing. Society spends more on women's mental health because of the age old stigma, that often ends up being true, that men don't seek help for fear of looking weak. While it's truly fucking awful that men out there feel that they cannot ask for help, it's on us as men to make sure we support each other as well and let each other know it's okay to ask for help. Society sure as shit isn't doing it. We need to be our own advocates, making sure that we aren't letting people just dismiss the men's mental health crisis. Way too many of our brothers take their lives every year because they feel like that is the only choice and way too many of them never said a damn thing about what they were going through.

The comment in the image, while wildly out of touch and toxic af did have one very true point. Men's communities are bereft of emotional support for each other. So many men perpetuate the "we can't talk about emotions" thing and it's a problem. So many of the problems we have as men about our emotions and talking about them do in fact stem from other men and the dumb af macho man mentality. I personally have run into some men getting super weird when talking about anything personal or relating to emotions.

The only way we change it though is through action. Tell your friends you love them. Say those words. "I love you bro." it has meaning and it means a lot to be loved by your friends. Give each other hugs. Not this bull shit shoulder bump thing I see so many dudes do. Give each other actual hugs. So many men out there are never hugged. That physical display of affection is so huge. Once you and your friends drop the bullshit machismo and actually realize it's okay to show affection for each other, you start to form deeper relationships and stronger bonds. It becomes easier to talk to them about things and get an outside mans perspective, something far too many of us lack. Too many men keep their friends and everyone else at arms length. If we can't let our friends in, the people who will be able to most closely relate to us as other men, we won't be able to let anyone in.

[–]christina_murray_[S] 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think men’s communities are necessarily bereft of emotional support… this one aims as hard as it can to be a safe space for men to vent but has limits in order to avoid it veering into misogyny which can happen in other male spaces. But this sub is not an exclusively male community- it’s a place to document misandry :) And I support and love men very much.

I think some men might get weird with emotions because they get penalised for it. My partner is a very sensitive guy- wouldn’t hurt a fly… he’s not afraid to embrace his emotions…. but he got mocked for them a lot in his teen years in school so it’s somewhat made him suppress them in public. I remember him telling me that he tried to show affection to his then-best friend by saying he missed him… and the “friend” chastised him for it and told him never to say it again. What a bad friend. I don’t really know that guy, I was lucky enough never to really cross paths with him but he treated my partner like shit, dropped him like a sack of hot potatoes and then got a new group to be hostile towards him….

Men showing emotions in the society we live in, unfortunately has consequences. Should it be the case? No, but sadly it is. I do think men should open up about their emotions more, but I also understand why they don’t. And I hate how many feminists suggest “go to therapy” as the cure for everything… if it’s mainly radfems suggesting therapy and talking it up, is it any wonder many men don’t want to try it? They might be worried they’d get indoctrinated into those beliefs.

[–]Agile_Scale1913 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheLimeyCanuck 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was a victim of DV in my first marriage. I literally feared for my life if I took my eyes off her during one of her "red rages" (her name for them). During her rage she would call police to have me thrown out, but they would take one look at my physical injuries and ask if I wanted to press charges. Foolishly I always said no (I understand why so many women stay with their abusers, her mental and emotional abuse had convinced me it was my fault). After I escaped that situation it took me a decade to fully recover, and during that time I did a lot of research on actual DV statistics. I learned that slightly more than half of DV is female on male (~55%) and that over 75% of child abuse is by the mother.

But we live in a society that assumes that any man killed by his female partner must have deserved it.

[+]wienercat -9 points-8 points-7 points 2 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Agile_Scale1913 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]wienercat -8 points-7 points-6 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I looked at every link my dude. Read the actual data on them instead of trusting a fucking IG reel.

That first link isn't data supporting any stance. It's a set of risk factors. Which is in fact not data proving a point. It's saying "hey these things are things to look out for."

Your 2nd link literally states " Homicides primarily involved a firearm, were precipitated by arguments and interpersonal conflicts, were related to intimate partner violence (particularly for females)"

It is also mainly talking about how people more frequently killed themselves after injuring or killing their partners.

Not to mention this bit of data "The homicide rate for males was nearly four times the rate for females (7.9 and 2.0 per 100,000 population, respectively) and approximately five times the rate for females among those aged 20–29 years (Table 4). " Meaning men are killing women in DV events at 4 times the rate.

Even states "NVDRS homicide circumstance data indicate that homicide decedents were most often males killed as the result of an argument or conflict or during the commission of a crime (predominately assault/homicide). In contrast, among females almost half of homicides were related to IPV; a current or former spouse/intimate partner was identified as the perpetrator in 51.4% of homicides with known perpetrators. "

So half of all homicides committed against women were the results of their partner killing them.

Go read that source. It doesn't back up the claims that women are committing more DV. It very clearly supports that women are much more likely to be the victims of DV and much more likely to die as a result of that.

[–]Agile_Scale1913 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wienercat 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Those sources clearly prove men are the minority victims in violence.

I didn't move goal posts my dude. I used your own "source".

All of the data that I used to "move the goal posts" was in your own source data.

Or are we not considering homicide violence?

Since you made a point about not talking about violence in general. Here is a source about violence in general.

under the Intimate Partner Violence section, "According to the CDC, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men will experience physical violence by their intimate partner at some point during their lifetimes. About 1 in 3 women and nearly 1 in 6 men experience some form of sexual violence during their lifetimes" and " At least 5 million acts of domestic violence occur annually to women aged 18 years and older, with over 3 million involving men. While most events are minor, for example grabbing, shoving, pushing, slapping, and hitting, serious and sometimes fatal injuries do occur. Approximately 1.5 million intimate partner female rapes and physical assaults are perpetrated annually, and approximately 800,000 male assaults occur."

So men are clearly experiencing less violence.

[–]Agile_Scale1913 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]wienercat -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This link, once again. First section after the introduction.

" In the US, more than half of female homicide victims are killed by a current or former intimate partner.4 Data from the National Violent Death Reporting System (VDRS, 2003–2014) indicate that young women, particularly racial/ethnic minority women, are disproportionately affected by IPH.5 About 10% of male homicide victims die by IPH, compared with 55% of female homicide victims"

So, 10% compared to 55%.

corollary victims section.

"Decedents killed in IPV-related incidents who are not the intimate partners are ‘corollary victims’" Meaning literally anyone dying adjacent to the event.

This comment I assume is what you are latching onto here "Over three-quarters (76.4%) of corollary victims are male, many are family members or new intimate partners."

When you go and look at the things they cite. They cite this source for that particular line. here is the link to the full text

They have a very succinct line that explains why men or more frequently a corollary victim.

"Our data also showed that nearly three quarters of corollary homicide victims were male. Intuitively, this makes sense, because a portion of those victims are new boyfriends and partners killed by the former partner. However, some of the victims were family members and others who intervened in violence. Male socialization and beliefs about masculinity may influence men and boys to physically intervene in IPV situations, putting them at risk for serious injury or death."

Men are more likely to be in this category as a new partner, or because they tried to intervene and stop an IPV event.

The suicides part is the result of people killing themselves after killing their partners. It clearly states this. "The remaining victims (n = 849) were IPV perpetrators who committed suicide during a homicide–suicide incident or were killed by police in a legal intervention".

It doesn't address men killing themselves because they are the victims. It pretty clearly lays out that men are killing themselves because they are the perpetrator.

Read your data sources.

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Agile_Scale1913 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wienercat -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As for the claim that women are injured more, have a look at the part about corollary deaths. Women are more often killed directly because of IPV, but statistics suggest men are at a greater risk of suicide, suicide-homicide, or 'legal intervention'.

I addressed most of this in my other comment to you. As for the legal intervention part, it made up less than 1% of deaths in the statistics they cite.

Here is the line from the source cited in your sources."We identified 4470 persons who died in the course of 3350 IPV-related incidents. Of the 4470 deaths, 81% were homicides, 18% were suicides, and fewer than 1% were categorized as legal intervention or undetermined intent. Most incidents resulted in a single death (71.5%); 28.5% involved multiple deaths. The 955 multiple-death incidents (median = 2 decedents; range = 2–7 decedents) resulted in a total of 2075 decedents; 1120 of these victims were killed in addition to the primary targeted victim. These included corollary homicide victims and deaths of the perpetrator by suicide or legal intervention.

Of all homicides in the analysis (n = 3619), intimate partners and corollary victims represented 80% and 20% of victims, respectively; fewer than 1% of corollary victim deaths were categorized as undetermined intent. The remaining victims (n = 849) were IPV perpetrators who committed suicide during a homicide–suicide incident or were killed by police in a legal intervention; fewer than 1% of perpetrator deaths were categorized as undetermined intent. Descriptions of decedents are presented in Table 1 and Figure 1."

[From this source about half way down the page.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953789/0

[–]eldred2 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]wienercat -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]eldred2 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]wienercat -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's also way more likely a man ends up killing or seriously harming a woman in a DV scenario.

Do you REALLY care about women? If so, read this and reconsider.

The rates of partner homicides didn't used to be that far apart. Then women got help and resources and the rate they killed their husbands dropped a lot. Men didn't get DV shelters they could use to protect their kids from their abuser without getting kidnapping charges giving the abuser an upper hand in custody, government funded help to allow them to get easy restraining orders, DV intervention public policy and programs that favored them, etc. Therefore the rate that husbands kill their wives hasn't dropped much. Maybe if we want to eliminate the desperate husbands in mutually abusive relationships killing their wives, we should give them better options. That would probably save a lot of women's lives just like doing it for women has saved a lot of mens lives.

"Gender Differences in Patterns and Trends in U.S. Homicide, 1976–2015" by James Alan Fox and Emma E. Fridel. The data comes from FBI statistics ("FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports, SHR").

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vio.2017.0016?journalCode=vio&

Here's part of the conclusion that the authors came to:

Among all the results already reported, perhaps the most striking and important surrounds the trends in intimate partner homicide, particularly in the context of ongoing efforts to curtail domestic violence. Some researchers argue that the reduction in male intimate partner victimization, a decline of nearly 60% over the past four decades, is because of an increase in the availability of social and legal interventions, liberalized divorce laws, greater economic independence of women, as well as a reduction in the stigma of being the victim of domestic violence. Although at an earlier time a woman may have felt compelled to kill her abusive spouse as her only defense, she now has more opportunities to escape the relationship through means such as protective orders and shelters (Dugan et al. 1999; Fox et al. 2012). As a tragic irony, the wider availability of support services for abused women did not appear to have quite the intended effect, at least through the 1980s, as only male victimization declined.

Here is a graph of intimate partner homicides by sex over the years from the study. Notice the trend for women as they got help vs men that didn't?

https://web.archive.org/web/20201112004425/https://imgur.com/a/6Hx9dJt

God forbid we help men, even if it would save womens lives just like how providing women resources have saved a lot of men's lives.

[–]wienercat -4 points-3 points-2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe if we want to eliminate the desperate husbands in mutually abusive relationships killing their wives, we should give them better options.

People who abuse their spouse don't also tend to be getting abused by them. It's VERY often a one-sided thing. Mutual abuse can absolutely occur, that is without question. But once again, we come back to the simple facts. Men are killing women in intimate relationships at much higher rates and it's not because men cannot escape their relationships...

I want to be abundantly clear, because you seem to have ignored most of my points and went with vitriol instead. I am not arguing that men don't need help. Men absolutely do need help. I can tell you ignored several parts of my comment where I even stated that fact.

Let me point them out to you since you missed them. This is LITERALLY the next line in my post after your quoted sentence.

Should their be more DV shelters for men? Absolutely. Men need to know they can get away from abusive partners as well. Society also needs to start recognizing that men can be abused by women. It happens all the time.

Then wait for, the next paragraph.

Men's mental health is absolutely an issue that needs addressing. Society spends more on women's mental health because of the age old stigma, that often ends up being true, that men don't seek help for fear of looking weak. While it's truly fucking awful that men out there feel that they cannot ask for help,

I am agreeing with you. Men need help. But we as men need to start creating that change. Society isn't going to do it. Society doesn't give a shit about mens mental health. Unfortunately, men will have to do the majority of the leg work for men's mental health. Is that right? No. But it's reality.

But lets be clear, they even stated the reasons women were killing men in the past was because they couldn't escape the abuse.

Although at an earlier time a woman may have felt compelled to kill her abusive spouse as her only defense,

Not because they were abusing their husbands to the point where they kill them, which is often what happens with men abusing their wives.

Men are not turning around to kill their wives because they are being beaten and abused. That is not common. Men killing their wives are doing so most commonly because they are abusing their wives.

God forbid we help men,

I literally said we need to help men in my post. Multiple times.

[–]duhhhh 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

People who abuse their spouse don't also tend to be getting abused by them. It's VERY often a one-sided thing.

HALF is mutual abuse and the overwhelming majority where there is serious injury is during mutual abuse.

The DV "industry" is infested with feminist propaganda. I simply wish we as a society look at gender neutral domestic violence data and provide gender neutral support instead of studies looking for violence against women only and providing help for women only, even to the detriment of women. The violence is pretty equal. The perception and resources are not due to feminists. Reality is women are slightly more likely to initiate physical violence and slightly more likely to be significantly injured during physical violence.

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

Src: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Behind a paywall I have archived around, but Harvard research that women are more likely than men in starting or escalating domestic violence and those women are by far the women most likely to be injured in DV. That doesn't say all women injured are perpetrators themselves, but it does indicate the problem goes beyond the feminist/pop culture model of "violence against women".

It includes:

Almost 25% of the people surveyed — 28% of women and 19% of men — said there was some violence in their relationship. Women admitted perpetrating more violence (25% versus 11%) as well as being victimized more by violence (19% versus 16%) than men did. According to both men and women, 50% of this violence was reciprocal, that is, involved both parties, and in those cases the woman was more likely to have been the first to strike.

Read that one again and #BelieveWomen.

Src: http://archive.is/7vuUz

This is a long meta study that shows we've known domestic violence is often mutual and isn't gendered for decades. It is good analysis. It summarizes the results of dozens of studies across decades. Not ONE study. LOTS.

https://connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrpa/1/3/332 or the whole study here https://talkingback2restrainingorders.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/v71-straus_thirty-years-denying-evidence-pv_10.pdf

Most domestic violence research today is research of "violence against women" from grants specifically looking for data on violence against women, not gender neutral research.

Men are killing women in intimate relationships at much higher rates and it's not because men cannot escape their relationships...

Men can usually physically escape a bad relationship. Protecting their children and money from their abuser is a problem because the entire DV system is setup for women. When you are denied access to your child without repercussions by the courts yet you must pay your rapist/abuser child support or you go to jail, what do you have to lose?

Not because they were abusing their husbands to the point where they kill them, which is often what happens with men abusing their wives.

Baloney. The only time I've ever considered killing my wife was when she was doing things to me that would have her thrown in prison with no child custody rights ... IF our sexes were reversed. I suggest you try actually listening to some male victims. You clearly have gotten your DV knowledge from feminist sources telling you what men are thinking rather than listening to what men are actually saying.

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Title	Wow… from our favourite sub femalepessimist
Author	christina_murray_
Upvotes	93
Comments	44
Date	June 17, 2024 12:27 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/EverydayMisandry
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/everydaymisandry/comments/1dhlg9g/wow_from_our_favourite_sub_femalepessimist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/EverydayMisandry/wow-from-our-favourite-sub-femalepessimist.1521785 https://theredarchive.com/post/1521785

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