Question about r/MensRights in regards to feminism

duhhhh · 2024-07-18T13:11:14+00:00

Feminists -

created and pushed the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence Intervention which results in more men being beaten by their wives being removed from their homes than helped when they call the police
forced Erin Pizzey to flee the UK for her family's safety after she suggested men needed a DV shelter too, after opening the first several in the world (for women only)
create, publish, and use biased rape statistics to erase the overwhelming majority of male victims, erase the overwhelming majority of female perpetrators, and demonize men
block gender neutral rape laws
block laws that default child custody to 50/50 in a divorce unless there is credible evidence one parent is unfit to parent
invite women who abuse and kill men to be speakers at national rallies

If the influential feminist researchers, professors, lobbyists, public policy makers, journalists, authors, politicians, and protesters (and the "real feminists" using their work rather than calling out their sexism, bias, bigotry, data manipulation, outright lies, etc) were to follow the dictionary definition of feminism rather than the man hating spirit of feminism, I wouldn't be at odds with them. I would be a feminist. Unfortunately, the ones with a voice hate men and the rest keep quiet, which makes it a hate movement.

Asatmaya · 2024-07-18T13:38:29+00:00

But I’ve noticed a lot on this sub that you guys are anti-feminist and seem to confuse normal feminism with radical feminism

So, there is some of that, but even "normal" feminism has some issues and has created some problems.

The Declaration of Sentiments at Seneca Falls in 1849, for example, is full of out-and-out lies, intended to provoke hostility from women towards men; not "some men," but ALL MEN.

The most galling of these, to my eyes, is the claim that, "He has never permitted her to exercise her inalienable right to the elective franchise," which is not merely untrue, but ignores the fact that women were, in fact, allowed to vote in some states in the early years of the United States, and that all white men had only been granted the right to vote 7 years earlier! That is to say, for the first 50-odd years of our country, some women could vote while many men could not.

Contrast this with the position of Mother Jones and the anti-suffragists, who felt that giving women the vote would also expose them to the same social responsibilities as men, such as forced conscription, which even now, 100 years after universal suffrage, remains a point of contention. Women gained a privilege, without being required to fulfill the responsibilities that go along with that privilege.

The rest of the "sentiments" are equally mendacious; yes, women did "lose" some rights to men in marriage, but they gained others, such as not being liable for debts or certain crimes (her husband was liable, instead). She didn't "lose" her property, but gained, in effect, all rights to his.

I could go on through the list of half-truths and minor legitimate grievances somehow elevated to existential threats, but I don't have all day.

Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that women face unique challenges in the modern world compared to men, which should be addressed, but I absolutely refuse to discuss the issue in a vacuum and under the rubric of fallacious arguments and distorted facts presented.

Set your house in order, sister, before complaining about ours.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2024-07-18T14:36:25+00:00

I believe everyone should have the same rights and opportunities, regardless of gender, race, class, sexuality.

This is egalitarianism and not feminism. The etymology of the word feminist is "to take the woman's side [on everything apparently]". It only works if women were truly disadvantaged in every way, which is simply not the case. Yes words change meaning over time, but convincing people feminism means equality is disingenuous. Actions speak louder than words and based on the track record of large and promenint feminist organizations pushing for privledge for women and fighting against things like a DV shelter for men, I'd have to say the original meaning is still the best fit.

So I'd urge you to consider calling yourself an egalitarian instead if that's what you truly stand for.

xdavidy · 2024-07-18T14:41:05+00:00

The sentence on Wikipedia right after the one you quoted is this one:

Feminism holds the position that modern societies are patriarchal—they prioritize the male point of view—and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.

This is a mindset not based on facts or statistics. It is a belief, an ideology, that simply is a given for feminists no matter all the evidence that completely contradicts it. It justifies the continious push for sexism that is surprisingly extreme if you actually look at some statistics that are not cherry picked.

It also allows all kinds of ridiculous lies about the present and past to be accepted in our society. Since it affects basically every aspect of the modern society, there is way too much to cover and I don't have the time or energy to give you an overview. If you actually are interested in why feminism is so despised by the men here, I encourage you to do some research on your own.

I can recommend this documentary on youtube made by a feminist reporter about the male side of things: The Red Pill - Men's rights documentary. It only covers a selection of the issues men have with feminism on here but it's a good start.

EDIT: If you want a summary of a larger selection of issues then check out the bullet points on this website: empathygap.uk

NullableThought · 2024-07-18T14:47:28+00:00

One can be anti-feminism without being anti-women or anti-equality.

I am not a feminist. I am an egalitarian.

Tharkun140 · 2024-07-18T14:26:57+00:00

OP, can give us some examples of a feminist space (anything from a serious movement to a small online community) where the "radical feminists" are not the majority? Because otherwise, I think your use of "radical" is misguided, and you shouldn't blame anyone for resenting feminism.

AdamChap · 2024-07-18T15:44:04+00:00

Every day there's another throwaway reddit account saying the same shit on here. Here's the pattern.

You'll get a 100 responses from this. A few days later you'll reply to only the weakest point you can find and engage in bad faith with that. Other posters will follow you to that comment to get your attention and then you'll slink back to whatever feminist reddit space you crawled from.

Worth mentioning that any feminist reddit space you belong to contains evidence that we arne't confusing different types of feminism. Also the onus is on you to call out the bad feminists and distance yourself from them. You feminists however refuse to and use the loose definition of feminism to your advantage.

"Feminism is good, but THAT (bad) feminism isn't truly feminism"

It's a logically fallacy that exists only because you started with the belief that feminism IS good.

Igualdad23M · 2024-07-18T15:45:44+00:00

I'm not wasting any second of my time (any second more than what I'm wasting RightNow by writing this) by trying to debate with someone who use the "THats NoT REAl FEmiNISM" to gaslight us. Never debate with people who comes to you in bad faith.

Saerain · 2024-07-18T14:24:46+00:00

If you believe that, then I wonder what leads to identifying as feminist. What Wikipedia claims there doesn't hold up to feminist theory or the history of women's rights.

Like, how would you distinguish "feminism" from egalitarianism or equal human rights?

TenuousOgre · 2024-07-18T17:43:39+00:00

I'm anti-feminist and pro woman. Anti because it is ultimately an anti-male ideology. You say that's just the radical feminists. Yet laws, polls, and social media tell a different picture.

Look at the popularity of trends like #believewomen, #killallmen, “it’s not all men, but it's always a man” (which is untrue).

Look at family court laws and outcomes. In the U.S. women are earning more than men, yet 92% of alimony goes male to female, and similar rates for child support. Women get primary custody over 80% of the time. Men who aren't primary custodians get denied proper visitation 60-70% of the time. Men go to jail for not paying child support, courts enforce his payments, in some states, even when he has demonstrated he is not the biological father, and she knew it! Women don't go to jail for not paying, and men cannot perpetrate paternity fraud.

Homelessness, men are far more often homeless than women. Most shelters only take women and children. So even teenage boys can't be accepted, much less men.

Men save far more than women on average, women have far more educational and credit card debt (like 4-5 times as much). Yet taxes take from men to pay these women's debts. Why? Feminists as a group.

Men and women have similar rates of physical domestic abuse, yet in many places the standard procedure is remove the man, arrest him and force him through the courts. Why? Feminists as a group.

Women own more single family homes than men (yeah) but why? Mostly via divorce (but if she earns close to what she does, why does he have to leave the home, pay for it, and pay child support, often while being alienated from his kids and not allowed the legally required visitation). Why? Feminists as a group.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Feminism is NOT and never had been an egalitarian movement, o matter how they define it. It has worked always to benefit women at the expense of men.

OP, are you going to respond?

Cgravener1776 · 2024-07-18T15:11:39+00:00

I could rant on and on and on. But instead I'm going to leave it at while I do 100 percent support equal rights for both men and women, it needs to be just that. Equal. For everybody every color doesn't matter. Just because you're biologically different than I am shouldn't give you an advantage. And to be honest, look at just how wonderful modern age feminism has become, or rather wonderful for women while being completely toxic towards men.

WitnessOld6293 · 2024-07-18T16:55:42+00:00

Feminism doesn't have a singular definition. I'm not "anti-feminist" beacuse I don't know witch of the ~20 schools of feminism I would be against and I don't think everything done under the banner of feminism or other womens movements is bad. But your point about "radical feminism" is an oversimplification. Both radical and liberal feminism wants to end gender inequality but advocate different ways of doing so. The issue isn't with their goals but their worldview. But in general most feminist groups are opposed to men's rights issues and attack it whenever those issues come up

tilldeathdoiparty · 2024-07-18T18:19:37+00:00

Lots of good stuff in here but if feminism was actually about equal rights, you all would be out campaigning against the family court system and how custody, alimony and child support are managed but not one single feminist is out to have things equal.

Far too many in your camp have made it very clear their plan is to tear down men and it’s not to bring your fellow women up, if you can’t see that, I am not sure there is a quality conversation to be had.

2024-07-18T19:42:06+00:00

If you knew the true history of feminism, as told by Janice Fiamengo and Christina Hoff Sommers, then you wouldn't need to ask this.

Under feminism the women's lobby falsifies statistics and uses those things, not to help women, but to disenfranchise men. This became especially appearant after the 60s. The attempts to help boys, early in the boy's education crisis, were actively undermined by these lobbies.

If you looked at history overall, without a feminist lens, then you'd see that it was far more complicated than, "sexist patriarchy." There are little to no common feminists who do not believe in the radical revisions of history.

The dictionary definitions don't matter when the majority of feminist would gladly take up arms with Dworkin and Solanas.

Additionally, the majority add authoritarian and communist ideas, a very dangerous combination.

I consider a good, non-radical feminist to be anyone who has beliefs between Camile Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, or beliefs equal to them. People who truly believe in equality, and don't dismiss, silence, or actively fight to worsen the male condition.

z770i1 · 2024-07-18T19:43:42+00:00

My question is. What has normal feminism done to help men’s issues, instead of labeling false issues that don’t exist.

Examples of false issues: toxic masculinity, man spreading. Fragile Masculinity etc.

Is there any men’s issues that has gone down, not up because of feminism

thelorax18 · 2024-07-18T18:54:32+00:00

What you are referring to was classical/first wave feminism, those days are long gone because they already accomplished their goal (at least in Western countries)

The_Glass_Arrow · 2024-07-18T21:42:02+00:00

I'm not anti feminist the movement. I'm against the 2 sidedness of the people behind it.

I said something like "rape is a human issue not limited to one gender" and got banned from the feminist sub. Yeah no I'm going to be against anyone who tries to silence and suppress me.

Not all women are bad, but there sure is some bad apples of the group.

Balages · 2024-07-18T22:09:39+00:00

Uhh the thing I hate the most is "believe me I care more about male issues than you" when talking to feminists

SaltSpecialistSalt · 2024-07-18T21:29:54+00:00

a genuine question : as a feminist what would be the positive things you would say about men ?

TaskComfortable6953 · 2024-07-18T20:23:27+00:00

Feminist concepts actually lead to a lot of male suffrage. For example, the power and Duluth model always assumes men are the abusers. The model also concludes that all abusers are doing it for power and control.

Another example is, how rape is defined in our laws. Currently made to penetrate rape isn’t recognized because feminist actually rallied to get rape legally defined as a penetrative act. Although the FBI changed their definition in 2008 they still don’t recognize made to penetrate rape. Also, about 16 states still define rape as a penetrative act.

Also, feminist also rallied to make women/mothers the default custody holder instead of making joint custody the default.

I’m sure there’s more reasons but these are all that I can think of ATM.

Former_Range_1730 · 2024-07-22T22:55:43+00:00

" you guys are anti-feminist and seem to confuse normal feminism with radical feminism, "

All Feminism is anti patriarchy, which makes it all radical. Heterosexuality is the engine of Patriarchy, which makes them anti hetero women and hetero men.

It only takes a few seconds to see the hate for hetero men when you read through a few posts on places like 2XChromosomes where pretty much all of them are feminists. And they all chant the same negative things about hetero men.

Almost no person who identifies as a feminist, follows the dictionaries definition of feminism.

whatafoolishsquid · 2024-07-23T08:10:41+00:00

We don't play "no true feminist" here. Feminists push policies and laws that harm men. If you have a problem with that, find a new movement.

AlexDLopez · 2024-07-23T09:11:44+00:00

yeah, i think there is a lot of unnecessary hate for feminism here, i ama man, but i don't think that to ensure Mens Rights, At no point that its needed to Threat Womens Rights Activism, You Can see a ton of Misandry in Feminism and a ton of Misogyny in Mens Rights Activism as well, unfortunately i have to admit that even when i am a men's right activist myself, Hate for the Other always existed in both Gender Right Activisms, The Unfortunate part if how this paints a bad image around both, like Toxic Feminism and Toxic Masculinity, It has turned more like Nationalism, both Mens Rights Activism and Feminism, i am not personally against Feminism at all, it is something that granted women jobs, education Voting and many other Human rights that were exclusive to Men at some point, FInally the reasons i see is
1. Toxic Extreme end of the Activisms Themself (like i said above)
2. How Media purposefully shine a negative light that Men Vs Women Narrative and The Mens Rights And Feminism is Against each Other
3. Negative Affects of Feminism on Boys
4. Red Pill Content
yeah that's my take

AlternativeRun545 · 2024-07-24T18:57:53+00:00

I believe the issue this sub has with feminism is not that we don't support the equality of opportunity for both gender, its that that equal opportunity currently exists for (basically) every developed country. There's now more institutional power in the favor of women than men and the cause of that has been feminist ideology perpetuated through massive banking corporations like Blackrock and vanguard putting DEI requirements and quotas in place for businesses to get loans. Interestingly, none of these requirements are exclusively inclusive to men, while there are plenty that are one-sided towards women. There has also been a remarkable decline in spaces and activities centered around male bonding in the name of inclusivity. Men feel cornered with nowhere to feel comfortable in their masculine ideologies of meritocracy.

weatherinfo · 2024-07-20T17:44:05+00:00

It’s very simple. Women are beyond equal to men. Women are privileged. We don’t need feminism anymore. The job is done.

It’s time to spool up the engines on men’s rights; the women’s rights era is done.

Title	Question about r/MensRights in regards to feminism
Author	Independent-Film1606
Upvotes	0
Comments	40
Date	July 18, 2024 12:59 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1e5yotg/question_about_rmensrights_in_regards_to_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-about-rmensrights-in-regards-to-feminism.1524630 https://theredarchive.com/post/1524630

Comments