question about self hatred

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February 3, 2017

Context: I decided to revisit some of the beginner materials from the side bar and re-read NMMNG. reading it through again has really helped with my sense of frame and being congruent with myself. However, it has lead to deeper question that I am struggling to resolve. I find that there is a nagging feeling that doesn't ever seem to go away. It is a feeling that I used to try and get resolved from my wife, which lead to her, rightfully, thinking I am a faggot. The feeling is something like, "no matter what I do, or how much I improve, I am still going to be a piece of shit." In essence, it's self hatred.

To add to the context, I should probably say that I cannot recall a period of my life where I felt otherwise about myself. So I am having a hard time finding a point of reference for what not hating yourself feels like or looks like. So the questions for the group are where does a positive self image come from? Given Acta Non Verba, what actions create a positive self image? How does one truly internalize being the prize and how do you know when you get there and aren't just faking it?


Post Information
Title question about self hatred
Author ofthehighdesert
Upvotes 10
Comments 35
Date 03 February 2017 07:34 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
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[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (8 children) | Copy

In good conscience, I think you need to see a good therapist or psychologist. This sounds somewhat like a depressive disorder, childhood issue, so on.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

This. Get out of your own head, it's filled with nonsense. If you cannot do it, get a professional to help you

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

This definitely could be a thinking about shit too much.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

ya think

[–]resolutions3162 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Specifically, I would seek out a therapist who's schooled in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

correct. CBT is decent stuff

[–]WesternhagenWinner0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Agree. It helped me.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy


Offhand tho: Get something else to do when that voice is in your head. stop coddling it.

Get more sun. Take vitamin D. consider fish oil. Lift. Take Testosterone pills. Get busy. When you start feeling sorry for yourself, have something to DO. Examples: Practice Guitar, learn a foreign language (duo lingo iOs App), home improvement project.

I've done about half of those things, really improved my quality of life.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It seems that being productive is a solid response to being in your head too much. Thanks for the actionable advise.

[–]zeteomegaleio7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy

u/abdada and u/Scurvemuch gave two solid answers. I'm going to add on to those.

Most people have that void in themselves that they need to fill because they don't feel worthy of loving themselves for whatever reason. So you seek love outside of yourself (in this case, your wife).

The two main reasons boil down to:

1) You have learned lessons in your life that make you think you are unlovable, and thus you can't love yourself. Typically, you had a fucked up childhood in some way if this is the case. This is where Scurve's answer comes into play; the truth is that a therapist is just going to be the quickest way to start dealing with this shit and learning the emotional tools you need to be a fulfilled, emotionally mature adult.

If this resonated with you, then you need to briefly think about the negative life events that happened to you and find someone who specializes in those things. These include childhood abuse, sexual abuse, narcissistic parents, whatever.

2) You are not living in alignment with who you think you ought to be. This is why the majority of people are on antidepressants - depression is a SYMPTOM telling you that you're doing something wrong most of the time for people who didn't otherwise get emotionally damaged, but we treat it like a root cause.

Note: Yes, some people literally have chemical imbalances. I'm not talking about those people and I firmly believe they are in the minority.

Anyway, this is where abdada's advice comes in. I would take it a step further though - you also have to look at the deeper, bigger picture shit in your life. This includes asking yourself "Do I enjoy my job?" and "Do I REALLY love and want to stay with my wife?"

Most people would rather swallow pills and numb their negative emotions/feelings that are SCREAMING at them to change their lives rather than confront these hard truths and take the painful actions necessary to change them. If you fix the root cause that you don't truly like how you are spending your life, the void will heal.

The only thing you need to also consider here is "Are my beliefs about what constitutes a successful life healthy? Or are they damaged viewpoints because I learned unhealthy lessons in my past?" If they are not healthy, refer back to reason #1.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

best I have ever felt was during a fight. Nearly to the death it felt like.

Too bad I am a small dude with glasses. Now I feel bad.

At the end of the day, I will think, well what if I was a millionaire, would I retire??

Nah... I like what I do.... I may not like the individuals or the company I work for / with... but those are things I can change. I like what I DO.

So no retirement for me.

but if you go work thinking "wTF am I even here????" - you need to change what you do for 40-80 hours a week.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's interesting that you mention fighting. When I was growing up I got into fights all the time, I think more than 40 by the time I graduated high school. I loved fighting, I still do. Nothing makes me feel more alive than getting in a fight, obviously, for practical reasons, IE I don't want to go to jail, I don't really fight so much anymore. But there has always been a real sense of relief when I got in a fight with someone who really deserved it and that look on their face when they started shit and realized they made a huge mistake.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

thats called catharsis.

The relief... thats you settling something thats not fair.

Looking for fairness is a childish thing.

but yea... I know what you mean

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think perhaps some looking at reason one might be in order. Specifically the beliefs I have developed as a result of the events of my early history.

[–]abdadaRed Beret14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy

Hate only that which you can control.

Hate your gym lift PRs -- you can fix those.

Hate the way you dress -- you can fix that.

Hate your savings plan -- you can save more.

Hate the mess in your house -- you can clean it up.

Hate the responsibilities and repairs you've put off -- you can work on those.

Once you get through the list of hating things you can control, you'll not hate yourself anymore.

[–]470_2_700_nm2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy


[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Focus on the shit you can change and leave everything else aside. I like that.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

"no matter what I do, or how much I improve, I am still going to be a piece of shit."

According to whom? Who defines what a piece of shit is? There are some that think I'm a piece of shit for leaving my wife. There are others who said I was "brave". There are other who said "c'est la vie not, my life". Who's right?

None of them. I set my own standards.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Where does a positive self image come from?

It comes from you. If this has been a lifelong problem then over-simplifications like shine your shoes and similar won't resolve it. See a doctor if you haven't already. If that doctor doesn't work then try another.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

You mean, what happens when you stop looking for validation from others? Then you have to find your own motivations for doing shit. You no longer need to defend your actions or desires, because ultimately you are only accountable to and responsible for yourself.

I mean, why the fuck do you get out of bed in the morning? Do you have goals or passions? Do you have kids? Do you provide value to those around you? Is the world a better place because you're in it?

Sure, we're all fuck ups at times. I would say that I have about 75% of my shit in a pile, which is a vast improvement over a year ago, but there's more work to do. At the same time, I surround myself with people who recognize my value and bring value to me. Just because I care less about what my wife thinks, doesn't mean that it means nothing. If someone is a drain on my life, then I cut them out.

My positive self-image comes from the mirror. It comes from setting goals and meeting them. It comes from having great kids, a fun wife, and being able to enjoy life on my terms. It's not about the negative shit around me and the doubts I sometimes have, but being alive and in the moment. I have the strength to move my own limbs, I have years of life ahead of me, and dammit, no setback, mistake, or naysayer will take that away from me.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

"You mean, what happens when you stop looking for validation from others? Then you have to find your own motivations for doing shit. You no longer need to defend your actions or desires, because ultimately you are only accountable to and responsible for yourself."

Trying to internalize this.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

So am I, brother. So am I.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Deep self-hatred all self-doubt can have many causes: A Freudian take Might be the things that happened to you before you were five. Jung would have you analyze your dreams to see the sources.

That being said I am no therapist and you should perhaps see a psychiatrist and find out?

For now, what can you rely on? I could suggest 2 simple things: your faith if you are religious as a source or, if you are American, read the constitution and see the rights that are your by birth regardless of anything else you may feel.

Good luck

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Please read This

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Damn, that hit home.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am probably older than you but I can relate a bit. I've struggled with anxiety and depression most of my life but learned to manage it well in my older age. In my younger years I would self medicate with booze, cigarettes and drugs and basically walked around feeling like I was a fraud throughout a lot of my professional career. Things that helped me:

  1. As I've become more successful professionally and gotten to see "behind the curtain" a little I've learned that people in management positions often don't work any harder and aren't as smart as me, so I feel like I belong here as much as anyone.

  2. Realized that my upbringing put a lot of pressure on me to live a certain kind of life and feel like a failure if I didn't, and I have very deliberately decided to let myself off the hook about things and not buy into it. I've specifically been a lot better about ignoring my parents' sometimes not very good advice and learning to tell my family "no."

  3. Did things to better myself. I am in vastly better physical shape now than ever before. I went from basically sedentary to running a 5k as cardio 3x a week and benching my body weight 10x. I am not bragging, lot of guys much stronger than me. But I am proud of what I've done. Quitting my 20+ year pack a day smoking habit was a HUGE boost to my self esteem as well.

Now I realize that by the time I become self actualized most of my life will be over but it's something to strive for all the same.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

This seems quite disordered and frankly worrisome. The language and syntax is fine but something about this strikes me as wrong. How do you not hate yourself? No matter what you do you will always be a piece of shit?

Let me take a wild swing at this one: Think about those phrases you used in this short piece. Think hard. Repeat them in your mind a couple of times and try to recognize that voice. It's your mother's voice. Am I right? It's way past the time to tell her to Shut The Fuck Up and stop listening to her.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, you kinda hit that one on the head. I don't want run the risk of sounding like a bitch here, I am responsible for my own self image, but its true. My mom, who was a single parent, ignored me. I used to disappear, sometime for days and she didn't notice. When my shitty grades would come back, she would tell me I was a fucking retard, just like my dad. I don't think about it, the relationship is fine with her and I can't change the way I grew up. But if I am honest, the fact that I used to do terrible shit and she wouldn't notice is the voice. It says you aren't worth looking at, and when I do, you are fucking retard. I once put another kid in the hospital and there wasn't even a conversation about it. I was fucking my friends older sister in when I was 5th grade, nothing. My Dad was too big of dumbfuck to get his shit together and set me straight either. You are correct. It's probably time to take a sober look at the message that sent and then put it aside and deside for myself what kind of man I am.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Now you are developing a plan based on self awareness. You have got this.

[–]sh0ckley1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

That kind of shit comes from your past. How do I know? Because I am the product of a moderately dysfunctional family system. Moderately does not mean "it wasn't that bad" moderately means "it was very hard to see and acknowledge."

The way I got out of the woods was by connecting the dots between childhood misery and maladaptive behaviors that had continued into adulthood... with a decent therapist and lot of self motivation. It sucked. My ego and pride hated it. But things are better now.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

What kind of Therapist did you see?

[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Parts therapy for 6+ months weekly, and before him a CBT guy who was the quiet type for 6 months as well. Over a year total. I had NMMNG exercises written which I also shared here on MRP while being careful of disclosure and doxxing. Also a book called Facing Codependence which had a companion workbook. That shit helped.

The second guy was beta as hell and I was already seeing him when I showed up here. As I put MRP into practice, I had to make sure I didn't red knight him but in spite of that, he was very helpful.

what actions create a positive self image

Lately I've been chipping away at Nathanial Brandon's sentence completion exercises as described in The Six Pillars of Self Esteem. Great stuff and that right there is the answer to your question above.

[–]ofthehighdesert[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's not a bad thing to think you can always be doing more. There's healthy anxiety-- the drive that men use to create business, conquer nations, and own their shit. And there's unhealthy rumination and self-doubt. Find a way to challenge your beliefs and transform the worry into a sense of ownership.

As you succeed in life-- whether in your career, family, athletics, or whatever metric you use as "success"-- you will gain that positive self-image. You will never be the best at any one thing. But you will be the best version of yourself as you strive for excellence

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've wrestled with this demon for most of my life, so I can really relate. I don't have any answers or advice, though, other than to try to channel it into self-improvement rather than self-destruction.

Not knocking anyone, as I know everyone in this thread is offering sincere advice, but it's eye-opening to see how people who've never dealt with this have no clue what it's like.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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