Q4BP: Assume for a moment that TRP is correct on certain ideas which legitimately put women in a cold, predatory and threatening light. Are redpillers justified to be bitter, or must they still get over it?

wub1234 · 2015-12-03T09:54:40+00:00

women cannot love unconditionally

This applies to men too. Men do not love women unconditionally.

Many of the points you have made apply to both genders. Men constantly operate on double standards, the difference being that we are perhaps a little more honest to ourselves about it (although none of us know whether or not women are honest to themselves about their double standards). Men will tolerate shit from a 9/10 woman that they would NEVER tolerate from a 3/10.

Men are hypergamous too, at least they would be if they could be. What guy wouldn't date a superhot woman? I would suggest men are more hypergamous than women, more looks-oriented, more easily seduced by particularly high value individuals than women are. Why else are there so many images and videos of really hot naked chicks on the net?

The only difference is it's harder for men to be hypergamous because women are more sexually selective for biological reasons. Every guy would be hypergamous if he could. I would be. Who the fuck would not?

The idea that men are more accountable and responsible than women is bullshit. Look around you on a daily basis. We're rapidly heading towards an Idiocracy-style society, the only difference between that film and our world being that our society is socially engineered by the elite to produce these results, so they don't lose control of the political system in the way that is depicted in Idiocracy. They want the public to be atomised, trivial and stupid, not them. They're doing a fucking good job because the society is absolutely asinine.

I don't want to write too much here, but many of the other phenomena that you mention in the OP are due to the fact that women are bombarded with attention nowadays. It wasn't this way in the past. This is almost an evolution of our species. Women are just engaging in selection strategy. If they had less options then they would be less selective. But they can afford to be selective nowadays, in fact they're almost obliged to be selective, because they get constant attention from a sex-crazed male population.

As I've mentioned numerous times, any woman can have 200 dating options in 24 hours nowadays quite easily. Maybe that's a conservative estimate. Of course they're going to be selective in that society. Additionally, every dating coach that I've seen, both male and female, is telling men to constantly approach women, almost to make it their highest priority in life.

What do you think the consequences of this are going to be? Of course women are going to end up with an inflated sense of self-worth. It's not even inflated, it's almost a rational response to the amount of attention that they get, or can get if they choose to do so.

I understand why some guys give up, but unless you're going to get yourself neutered then you will continue to long for the same things you long for now. There is no easy way out.

cats_or_get_out · 2015-12-03T12:14:06+00:00

Men and women are different. Life's not fair. These are two really wonderful ideas. :-)

Sometimes this works in women's favor. Sometimes it works in men's favor. When we forget the two essential premises, then we get into the old " but that's a double standard" trap.

We also tend to demonize the opposite sex for their differences rather than accept the differences as just what they are--differences. For every "bad" female trait there is a "bad" male trait. Take hypergamy and polygyny. In order for marriage to work, both parties have to deal with those tendencies.

"How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it."--Marcus Aurelius

[deleted] · 2015-12-03T22:22:25+00:00

[permanently deleted]

wtknight · 2015-12-03T13:16:35+00:00

If you assume all of those things are true and they are part of female nature, then there's not much you can do to change them. If you are attracted to women and want to have sex with them, there is no point in being bitter, because women aren't going to change due to your bitterness. It's actually more productive to be mad at yourself for being attracted to such an inherently selfish gender and to discipline yourself to not be attracted to them. In this sense, if you really believe in Red Pill truths and are bitter about those truths, I think MGTOW is a better way to go. Being a Red Pill "alpha" and at the same time being completely bitter about women is like being addicted to a drug. And, in fact, if you talk to some of the more well-adjusted Red Pillers on here (relatively speaking), they will tell you that they are not bitter about women and actually like certain things about them besides their ability to provide them with sex, even while at the same time they can get frustrated by what they consider feminine nature.

Bekazzled · 2015-12-03T07:02:34+00:00

At the end of the day, in this realm, the exceptions to the rules are all that really matter, especially if you're looking for a monogamous relationship. I mean, by RP logic this would be akin to me totally giving up on men because the majority would just use me for sex if they had the chance.

thecitttty · 2015-12-03T09:19:21+00:00

If these traits are all present in a high degree in all women, AND they have no mitigating characteristics, then you should probably be quite bitter and MGTOW. I wouldn't blame you.

However, if all women have these traits, but some/many of them are muted in some/many women - due to innate disposition or upbringing - then perhaps we can start seeing women as a range of humans, some of whom aren't that bad, some of whom are downright horrible, some of whom are in between.

Most importantly, if women have executive control over their actions, then we can believe that they will rein in these tendencies. Even women who naturally experience these tendencies to a high degree are able to work on mitigating them. This would exclude sociopaths, narcissists, and various other shitty people. Most women, though, have that executive function and want to exercise it to abide by a moral standard. Just as they may be tempted by finding a large sum of money but resist the impulse to steal it, they may be naturally inclined to branch-swing but deliberately choose to remain faithful.

In fact, if you consider it, almost every human being has terrible innate impulses. We all get tempted constantly to screw others over for our own benefit. Every generation of kids has to be taught not to steal, lie, and assault people. Some people take this as a reason to become misanthropic. But it is also true that almost everyone has executive control of their actions, and that almost everyone exercises this control to match actions to principles even when the path isn't easy. To become misanthropic and hate all people for their shitty innate traits is to ignore the work that we all put in to making ourselves and our societies better.

After all, men also - hypothetically - have some impulses that can and do lead them to screw over women. Some women vilify men for this, but it’s clear to me that most men try to some degree to keep themselves in check

I know that for myself, it took learning about red pill to recognize those same bad traits you list within myself. (Sorry, leaving the hypothetical.) Now I can identify them and work on NOT expressing them with my partner. I think that it is generally important to teach girls about these tendencies and controlling them.

octopus_sushi · 2015-12-03T07:17:09+00:00

I think, to know the answer to this thought exercise, you can consider for a moment, the way the world looks to your presumed feminist bluepiller. (Yes, not all BP is feminist nor activist. But for a moment, let's try to walk in the shoes of a BP feminist).

While RP says the world is gynocentric, BP says the world is patriarchal. While RP says the odds are stacked against men, BP says the odds are stacked against women.

However, unlike RP, which has resorted to tactics that borderline abuse and general bitterness, much of BP remains optimistic. While RP has given in to selfishness, fear and cynicism, BP are still altruistic and optimistic. This can be seen in the way that BP overwhelmingly volunteer and help the less fortunate, unlike RP (You started that thread a few days back).

So, to answer your question, no, I don't think trp is correct on giving in to bitterness. I think, had BP been in their shoes, they will remain the same reasonable, empathetic human beings they mostly are.

[deleted] · 2015-12-03T10:38:43+00:00

The idea that women are 'evil' in a way that men aren't is logically inconsistent. Honestly, men are just as shit and capable of being shit as women. There's a tricky situation in which feminism is excusing shit behaviour from women and encouraging it, but on the whole women aren't any worse than men. The idea is pretty damn simplistic and stupid in the first place. Just expect that people will be civil but be aware of people who don't seem sensible and grounded enough to be civil. You expect men not to be violent, competitive dicks even though it's in our nature to be, so why expect women to be incapable of controlling their nature in the name of decency? Be a good judge of people, don't expect perfection, life will be fine.

There's a lot of pressure on men to be good at lots of thing, which is shit, but at the same time... it's not like we wouldn't do these things anyway. I'd be fit even if women didn't care if I was fit. I started doing push-ups when I was like seven years old because my dad told me what a six-pack was and I thought it seemed cool. Dude, it's ten thirty in the morning and I've already jacked off twice today. I'm still gonna do all the shit I was going to do anyway, I'm not going to do it for puss. If you have enough testosterone going on it's kind of natural to be dominant and confident anyway. Like, yeah there's pressure on me to do this stuff but I want to do it anyway and guys when they're healthy and in the right frame of mind mostly do too.

One thing I've found myself agreeing with TRP on a lot is that you just have to let nature take its course and be a man. A man by nature wants to do these things on the whole, it's how we've evolved, and it wouldn't make sense for us to have all these obligations that we outright hate. Do I agree that pressure on men to meet those expectations is completely unreasonable? Sure, but TRP is right in that, as a man, it's on you to try and meet those expectations. If you give it a go you'll probably find that it comes quite naturally. Just stay healthy, physically and mentally. You're not going to change the world dude, and when you accept that you're just going to find that actually the world is not really so bad for you. Feminists seem to have a disproportionate level of mental illness because they're obsessed with this crazy notion that they can change the world to make everything 'right and fair'. There's no need, there are injustices that must be fought, but nature is nature. Just roll with it and you'll be better off. I actually wish TRP would emphasise this point, instead of pushing more pressure onto people with ridiculous self-improvement projects etc.

Xemnas81 · 2015-12-03T11:46:09+00:00

Nobody loves unconditionally except maybe your mother. Get over it people.

Anyway, if you think women are so much trouble, go MGTOW or something.

coratoad · 2015-12-03T08:54:27+00:00

No I would not judge them, or at least I would try not to. Even if none of this is true, I don't think we should judge. Anger and bitterness are expressions of pain, and telling someone to stop feeling pain is pretty cold. I don't think it's helpful to trivialize people's feelings or tell them to just get over it. They likely already know they need to push through the fear and anger but either can't or don't know how. Whether their fears are true or not it just doesn't do any good to tell them to just get over it.

Would you still be thought policing to ensure that he likes you, or him/her?

If all those things were true, I would understand if he didn't like me, but I would probably ask just to make sure. Plus I have my own insecurities and I sometimes need a little reassurance myself.

Xemnas81 · 2015-12-03T16:21:47+00:00

What if jews control the world? Are nazis jusified in being angry?

asdf_clash · 2015-12-03T17:08:00+00:00

I didn't read a goddamn thing in your post, but anytime someone says "what if X is true, am I justified to be bitter?" the answer is "you only live one life, and being bitter about your circumstance will make it worse."

don't ask me for permission to be mad, or bitter, because it doesn't matter if you have permission or justification -- even if feminists killed your family and kicked your dog, you will still have A BETTER LIFE if you're not bitter about it

midnightvulpine · 2015-12-03T17:16:57+00:00

Justified in what respect? Because feeling anger is different from expressing it and allowing it to taint who you are and infect how you carry yourself. Personally I feel a lot of anger phase folk use it as an excuse to be needlessly cruel and act like general jackasses and others use it as a way to wave of RPs word actors and lunatic fringe.

vezokpiraka · 2015-12-03T17:38:48+00:00

Bitterness is a sad state to be in.

That's why TRP recommends going monk mode after going through a break up to learn to manage your emotions. Many people don't do that, because they want results and want them fast.

The thing is most RP truths apply in a vacuum. It's hard to swallow the pill, but if you look for a second at the interactions around you, you'll realize that AWALT is true. It's hard to explain things like this in a coherent argument on the internet. It would be easier as a discussion.

[deleted] · 2015-12-03T19:51:05+00:00

Bitterness is extremely powerful for motivation. What does it matter if it's justified, if it propels you to greatness?

Nemesinthe · 2015-12-03T09:15:13+00:00

Assume Scientology is right about the whole "Humans are vessels for ancient Thetans" stuff, are they justified to milk all of their members' money? That's how much sense the question makes.

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