~ archived since 2018 ~

my thoughts 19M

reddit309

February 5, 2019

18 upvotes

/r/ExRedPill

The purpose of TRP is teach you to pursue excellence in all areas of your life. When a guy is very sexy, makes a lot of money, he will be spoiled for choice and that is a fact. Learning red pill awareness is important for every guy because it helps you recognize your own value as a man and never to put a woman on a pedestal. It teaches you to self improve, so that the high value man you work towards to become will be able to CHOOSE his wife and prevent marrying the wrong woman which is a very big problem these days. So many men are so desperate that they are very vulnerable to certain manipulations and abuse from certain women. Not all women are manipulative bitches, and I think most are not, but without red pill AWARENESS a desperate guy can easily become the victim of divorce rape, or just a shitty marriage in general if he doesnt realize what hes getting himself into (most dont). The red pill empowers men to work on themselves and not WORRY about relationships. Just work on yourself and the women will come. Thats what I love about the red pill.

Over the past 6 months I obsessed about a girl I find to be very attractive without even knowing her name. I finally approached her after becoming red pill aware because I was able to recognize my own value and that (high value) men are the prize, not women. I think a lot of TRP community has a positive outlook on life and women (, but a lot of them dont). Its not about putting women down, its about putting yourself up which is how I got started with it mainly watching youtube videos.

However, the community has extremists and very bitter men that literally encourage you to treat women like shit because thats what they deserve. Not all red pillers have this belief, but the ones who do are making me turn away from the community]. The red pill has motivated me so much to become a very successful man but I can no longer listen to these paranoid bitter guys demean women. Some members of the community are misogynistic which spread a very bad message.

I disagree with the concepts of cheating, game, alpha, dread game, "spinning plates", and treating women like shit so they perceive you as high value.

I think cheating is wrong. I dont believe in "game", it just seems fake and immature. It has been proven to work with some young women but not the kind anyone really wants to be with. The concept of women just wanting to be with alpha dominant macho overly confident (arrogant) guys that treat them like shit I do not believe to be true but many red pillers do believe this to be true. Just because you hear about some dumb ass 20 year old girl have sex with a bad boy and get pumped and dumped doesn't mean that's what every girl wants. I don't think theres anything wrong with spinning plates but I dont like the idea of cheating so yeah.

Overall TRP actually has a lot of helpful information regarding how the dating game works, what women general want depending on their age (looks are most important until like age 30, then they want a provider, that sort of thing), and how to self improve. But most of the positive information is really common sense. For example, I already knew lifting makes you sexy... its not like some ground breaking discovery that society has kept from us...

However the forums are generally pretty toxic so Im kinda torn.

Thoughts?

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Support the archive

Everything here was supposed to disappear. Banned subreddits, deleted communities, cancelled blogs — much of what is archived here survives nowhere else.

It stays free — no paywall, no account — for the next man who comes looking, the way it was free for you.

I pay for the servers, the storage and the bandwidth myself. If you want this record still standing in ten years, become one of the people who keeps it online.

Support the archive

Post Information

Title	my thoughts 19M
Author	reddit309
Upvotes	18
Comments	74
Date	February 5, 2019 9:34 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/anj09k/my_thoughts_19m/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/my-thoughts-19m.299875 https://theredarchive.com/post/299875

Comments

[–]mein-shekel15 points16 points17 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mischiffmaker8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]mischiffmaker11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Luvagoo11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Davidfosford1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Luvagoo4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Davidfosford1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

from what I've read,

red pill doesn't say "this is concrete reality,"

whatever advice they give is usually just a guide.

If a girl you're dating reacted like this, and you've read that 20 other guys reacted different ways with varying results and you noticed patterns in their situations that you notice in your relationship.

you can then make a more accurate decision on how to react in that given situation with your girlfriend. Redpill advice is never been "this is reality, and it cant be any different". It's just a guide for the most part.

Every girl is different. But generally, aka biologically allot of women do react to the same cues and actions. You can't deny that, we aren't that unique from one another.

The only reason I hate redpill is the aggressive extremism.

But those people are usually just incels that have infiltrated the forums .

[–]sarah-goldfarb6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]sarah-goldfarb3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Davidfosford1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Which part are you having trouble with?

Redpill looks for a reason why these men suffer and cannot find loving partners, but it shifts blame away from personal responsibility, shifts the blame for their suffering onto women, ignores cultural contexts, promotes only the basest of standards and motivations, utilizes half-truths and blatant falsehoods to justify malicious behavior, does not allow for women to possess agency, does not allow *men* agency, employs emotional manipulation and abuse tactics, uses cult tactics to create an "Elected Elite vs Others" divide, and encourages desperate, selfish men to hurt women in order to find their own personal success. It imagines and reinforces the worst in people.

It's also self-reinforcing. TRP men don't succeed with women because they don't realize how terrible and abusive they are to others, nor do they see the red flags they give off because they lack basic emotional processing... and then they blame women for that inevitable suffering. It is a cycle of self-destruction.

They literally do not know how people operate or function, including themselves. They operate on half-assed cliches, cherry-picked and easily debunked evidence, and the stereotype that women are shallow, selfish, and cruel.

The strange part is that it's a cult with no functional leader/head. Instead, it lets the individual member see themselves as the head.

On top of all that, it's a direct gateway to other forms of bigotry, because there's a fantastic level of overlap in those spheres. Once you start blaming "others" for your problems, especially when acting along standard bigotry lines, it's a quick few steps from 'fellow traveler' to full on bastard.

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

" but it shifts blame away from personal responsibility, " No it doesn't, not at all.

" TRP men don't succeed with women because they don't realize how terrible and abusive they are to others, nor do they see the red flags they give off because they lack basic emotional processing... and then they blame women for that inevitable suffering. " True red pill men are actually very successful with women, even in LTRs.

I finally understand why you are so triggered. You really do not understand TRP at all. You think they all hate women and that isn't true. The ones who hate women are not red pilled, they are incels or MGTOW losers. Those are the ones who don't take responsibility for their failures with women. TRP isn't about abuse but many people think it is. Whatever you've read is a huge misrepresentation of TRP. TRP teaches misguided men that if you wanna be successful with women, the best thing to do is work on self improvement with your looks and career because that is what attracts women the most. Have you ever seen a male model that couldn't get a girlfriend? How about a rich successful man? How about a man with both? No, and you never will.

The stuff you see about "dread game" and manipulation tactics is exactly why I'm mad at the community because that really isn't what TRP is all about. Look up entreprenuers in cars on youtube. He is a great guy that got me started with TRP. He doesn't hate women and he specifically tells his viewers to not hate women but to take responsibility. Online forums are admittedly filled with extremely toxic people and some of them even encourage manipulation and abusive behaviors which is why I stepped away. The people that encourage abuse, are not red pilled. They are the narcissistic assholes that you speak of. But they are not red pill they just claim to be.

" the stereotype that women are shallow, selfish, and cruel. "

I hate when people say this too, but they are not true red pill. I believe each gender has the same amount of shallowness and selfishness and cruelness. Most people are selfish and shallow. Some people are cruel. I hate when people act like women are so evil, but those are not red pilled guys! They are the jackasses you are seeing on the reddit pages!

[–]raziphel0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You truly have no idea what you're talking about and you lack the perspective to understand human motivations. As stated on the other reply, "True Red Pill" is a base No True Scotsman fallacy. It's utterly foolish, so don't do that.

Did I say 'hate?" No I did not. By this point you can at least trust that I'm going to say in no unspecific terms what I mean, right? If I'd wanted to say "hate" I would have. I know you're trying really hard to understand what I'm saying, but you're going in the wrong direction.

Misogyny is more complex than simplistic hatred. It is apathy, a lack of empathy, and looking toward women as "not equals." Misogyny and other forms of bigotry are an outcome as much as, if not more than, intentions or motivations. Even neutrality in the face of oppression is passive complicity.

This isn't being triggered and I doubt you know what that actually means. I'm confronting you and your bullshit directly because you need to be confronted. Why? You are actively supporting and defending abusers, misogynists, and a toxic, destructive cycle of negativity. There may be a few kernels of truth under all the bullshit (like self-improvement) but kid... every cult has those. They're used to lure fools and defend the rest of the bullshit. Such points mean less than nothing.

If you're truly and honestly promoting personal responsibility, then fucking do that. Take a good hard look at yourself and the shit you're promoting, from a perspective other than your own, and change it. Here's a hint: if someone lays out that an action or mindset is destructive, and explains why, work to understand that perspective instead of defending the toxicity. If you cannot do that, you'll never move forward.

Truthfully? A lot of people are shallow, selfish, and cruel. Most folks are, and no group has a monopoly on that. They profit from the harm and suffering of others, and most folks are too dense to recognize how that process why, and too arrogant to do the self-reflection necessary to grow past it.

Don't tolerate that shit in the slightest. Not in yourself and not in others. Don't spend time with those people, don't chase them, don't promote their ideologies. Hold yourself and others to a better standard. Develop a stronger and more ethical center, one that's flexible enough to do actual self-reflection. You'll quickly discover that there are also lots of people who're tired of their abusive shit too.

But you can't do that while also supporting and defending destructive ideologies. Once you start doing the work necessary to move past this, you'll quickly discover that there is no middle ground and no neutrality when it comes to oppression. Assuming otherwise is a moderation fallacy, if you need a logic term for it.

Now go do that work.

You can start here:

https://racismscale.weebly.com/

Take that lens and those steps and apply them to redpill and social misogyny. There's a fantastic amount of overlap. Ask yourself where you really want to be.

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (41 children) | Copy Link

So you quoted me saying "the man is the prize". Please note that I specified "(high value)", not just any man, but even so men are still the prize.

The ideal wife is: beautiful, gives consistent sex, cooks, takes good care of the kids, intelligent ENOUGH and sweet.

The ideal husband is: earns high income and/or rich, ripped, tall, buff, good looking, high status, and good personality.

Literally any woman on this planet can be the ideal wife. But all of the standards for the ideal husband are only met by a very small percentage of the population (less than 5%). High value men who have all of these desirable things are much more rare than high value women and are therefore the prize. These men are spoiled for choice, they can have just about any woman they want because they are so rare and desirable.

Women have a short frame of time in their prime to attract a successful man. After that, and her beauty fades...she isn't worth much to a man to put it bluntly. However men continue to build wealth and status as they age which is exactly what attracts women.

So in an LTR a woman trades her youthful beauty (short period of time) for a life time (much longer period of time) of being taken care of by a man. All she has to do is give him sex and be nice to him and he will take care of her for the rest of her life.

Who do you think has the better deal?

Feminism has screwed things up to where many women are working now, but lets ignore that and only speak about this in a traditional sense.

[–]Luvagoo9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Luvagoo2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're totally right, my bad.

I just...where to begin. I can't really express myself better than Raziphel above, but to get a bit more granular, is this ideal husband/wife thing how you actually think? Is that how you segment the world and how you perceive everything in it? Do you have any comprehension on how fundamentally insulting that is to both men and women?

Everything you say, even the seemingly sensible stuff, is still through the lens of the assumption that individuals can be labelled, coded, categorised, predicted and managed. You do this because the world is a big, scary place; everything is much easier when everyone has a neat little box you can plop them into. Once they are in boxes, you can assign the entire box with dismissive adjectives that keep them in their place: 'alpha', 'slut', 'high value', 'low value' etc. Then you no longer have to think about them. Easy, right? Oh, and this is about everything in the world and in your life, not just about sex. But of course, most of it does boil back down to sex.

The problem is that people don't work like this. Oh, great statistical averages for populations, sure. But people, women you meet don't abide by the little boxes you want, expect and need them to act in, and you get frustrated when they don't. Cue all the toxic red pill shit. And though you seem to have rejected the worst of that toxicity, you still hold their absurd, fundamentally flawed worldview.

And my dude, it sounds fucking exhausting. I know it's supposed to be a life hack, but instead of being open, honest and empathetic to people you meet, willing to welcome, accept or reject the quirky, beautiful, bizarre differences between you, you come at them with great expectation (and therefore great let down), anger and frustration, with the fun cherry on top of a state of constant competition dictated by the quest to be a 'high value' at all times.

And at the end of it all, it also just sounds fucking sad. Because it means you can't truly connect with another human being.

[–]raziphel2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit3091 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I came to this sub for answers. It might sound like I'm trying to argue with you people but I'm really not. I'm trying to figure this stuff out, and I really didn't mean to trigger you so much.

Men and women are both attracted to superficial things like looks and money. No where does this imply that men cant love women and women cant love men. Its attraction. You can deny these traits I listed for men as not being important but there is irrefutable proof that these traits I listed in a man are desirable. The traits I listed as the ideal wife are admittedly wrong - I already said this in another comment. They are just superficial things I thought of. Personality is very important on both sides. I never said it wasn't, but I guess I never said it was.

I never said anything about alpha or slut, in fact I hate those terms as much as you probably do.

Brad Pitt is a very high value guy (top sub 1%) and he is clearly spoiled for choice.

" state of constant competition dictated by the quest to be a 'high value' at all times. "

What is your problem with men chasing excellence? I never said anything about excellence being the only thing that matters in dating but it clearly changes everything for you.

Why is saying that sexy money making machines are more desirable as partners an insult to men?

Why is saying sexy faithful housewives are more desirable as partners an insult to women?

You are making a lot of negative assumptions about me being generally negative and degrading to women. All I am talking about is that superficial things make a pretty big difference.

" but instead of being open, honest and empathetic to people you meet, willing to welcome, accept or reject the quirky, beautiful, bizarre differences between you, you come at them with great expectation (and therefore great let down), anger and frustration, "

where is this even coming from? how did you conclude that I am an asshole?

[–]raziphel4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Davidfosford 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You have no idea what women want, do you? Have you ever actually talked to women about any of this - notably women who're actually informed on the subject or understand statistics? Hell, have you ever actually had successful relationships?

So you're discounting 90% of women based on their looks alone? How fucking shallow are you? You must be terribly lonely.

It's not centuries of misogyny, it's millennia. Women have been held, sold, stolen, and used as sex objects or as breeding chattel for damn near all of human history. Pull out your fucking history book, kid. Women were essentially property for most of human history. There are literally too many references for this to even begin to list here - even the traditional root of 'rape' involves abducting women and forcing them into marriage.

Women are allowed to like, want, or value whatever they choose, just as men are. Financial stability, social stability, physical and emotional safety, etc. are all basic human needs. This is "Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs" shit and functionally universal... as are issues like respect, trust, and so on. Women are allowed to value all of those social factors in whatever way they want, giving them whatever weight they want, in whatever order they want.

"Can't get a guy to commit" is fantastically ignorant, especially if you're blaming women for male infidelity. That's a complex issue that you've boiled down to something utterly absurd and patently ridiculous. LOL

Women's "time frame for attractiveness" is far larger and less rigid that you might imagine. This happens often, unless you live in some shit-hole like India or China that pretends women somehow expire when they turn 27. That's just fucking stupid, and no, there's no argument to be had about it.

There's nothing vague or mystical about misogyny, so leave that bullshit at the door. It's not a difficult topic at all.

You don't deserve my best, or anyone else's. You're still struggling with the kindergarten lessons like "treat others with kindness."

[–]Davidfosford 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

i have amazing relationships. thank you very much Janice

first of all, don't shame people as an argument, it's not about me or you. Don't make things personal. It makes you sound butthurt and illogical.

second, I said the top 10 percent of women like these traits in men because most men want to date and have sex with hot women, they don't care for the ugly trolls. Redpill is trying to teach men what high quality women want not what angry trolls want in men.

just like how most women don't want losers that stay it their parents basements smoking weed and fucking around. That's being human, that doesn't make me shallow, nice try.

I mean if you're okay with dating a loser than more power to you, but that shows you have to be quite desperate to want to date a guy like that.

men have also been held, sold, stolen or used as breeding chattel for damn near all of human history of all races welcome to humanity. anyway how is women being property relevant to the argument?

They can't get a guy to commit because he found better girls, if you aren't the best, people that can get better will. If you're a guy that is short, broke stupid and lazy, she won't stay if she finds a guy taller, smarter and richer.

No time frame for attractiveness is pretty rigid, sorry, that may be hard to hear, might frighten you, life is scary sometimes. It's out of your control for the most part, if you're a guy born short, tough luck, it's going to be a hard road ahead.

If you're a women turning 33 your ability to attract an amazing guy over a hot beautiful smart 23-year-old is also difficult. Sure out can find a guy keen on a 33-year-old, but its usually a guy that cant attract a higher quality girl even if he tried, so he's willing to settle.

so far everything you said was mystical, you have your head in the sand.

just so you are aware you just said, "treat others with kindness."? after calling me a loser with no successful relationships aka an incel.

[–]raziphel4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't call you an incel either. You did. Own your shit.

My name isn't Janice. Don't throw out casual sexism, and don't make your own half-assed assumptions and accusations after accusing me of doing such. It makes you a hypocrite and stinks of tu quoque fallacies. No one is butthurt, and nothing about this is illogical. You lack the capability to process.

Your assumptions of what constitutes "hot" and "ugly" are shallow, biased, and ultimately false. "High quality women" as you put it can smell redpill's abusive bullshit a mile away and avoid them. RP folks don't realize that their bad behavior outs them in the bottom 10%, and they lack the perspective to see the red flags they send out.

OF COURSE no one wants to date losers who stay with their parents and smoke weed all day. No one is saying otherwise and only fools promote that concept. The idea of "Redpill vs Basement Dweller" is an exaggerated false dichotomy and you know it. Most of the population isn't that - presenting that as an argument is bad logic and just fucking stupid.

I said you're shallow because you cannot comprehend anything beyond the most basic concepts or value determinations. Your idea of "quality" is specious at best and utterly juvenile. replying on superficial traits like "hotness" and "money," but that are not markers of virtue, worth, or goodness. Go do an internet search on what it means to be shallow if you can't understand this concept. I cannot make this plainer for you.

Oppression against men doesn't make oppression against women acceptable, so why the fuck would you suggest that it is? Especially when we live in a society that is actively moving away from all of those things? Beyond that, why would you think defending misogyny and oppression in the first place is a good thing?

Nothing I've said is mystical - you're dismissive because you lack the ability to process the concepts, or the will to even try. Nothing I've stated is complex or difficult here - this is remedial shit - you just don't want to understand because you've invested your personal identity into the redpill methodology and get defensive over it. If you hadn't, you'd be listening instead of arguing. I say redpill is a cult for a reason and you're proving my point for me.

You can't understand kindness shown to others well enough to be demanding it for yourself. I'd point you to concepts like "no tolerance for intolerance" but it's clear such things will go over your head because you don't want to grasp them.

You want an argument, but you're not equipped. You need remedial ethics and logic lessons first. Until you get those, you'll never master things that require nuance or critical thinking skills - you'll just double down and continue rationalizing your pre-set emotional decisions.

Go do that on your own fucking time.

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

I came to this sub for answers. It might sound like I'm trying to argue with you people but I'm really not. I'm trying to figure this stuff out, and I really didn't mean to trigger you so much.

" Have you ever actually talked to women about any of this "

Yes I have. None of them will ever tell you that they are attracted to looks money and status.

But there is irrefutable proof that LMS is what attracts women in the same way a woman's beauty attracts men.

" So you're discounting 90% of women based on their looks alone? How fucking shallow are you? You must be terribly lonely. "

No I'm really not. Personality is very important to me. My standards are not that ridiculous either. I'm talking about attraction, I never said "Im not going to marry or date a woman unless she meets this list of superficial desirable things". All I really want is someone to love and be loved by that is compatible with me that is reasonable attractive. Top 10% of women in terms of beauty is not necessary to ME but I still have standards and so does everyone else.

So you have a problem with self respecting men who have standards?

" Women are allowed to like, want, or value whatever they choose, just as men are. Financial stability, social stability, physical and emotional safety, etc. are all basic human needs. This is "Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs" shit and functionally universal... as are issues like respect, trust, and so on. Women are allowed to value all of those social factors in whatever way they want, giving them whatever weight they want, in whatever order they want. "

Who are you arguing with? No one disagrees with you there.

" "Can't get a guy to commit" is fantastically ignorant, especially if you're blaming women for male infidelity. That's a complex issue that you've boiled down to something utterly absurd and patently ridiculous. LOL "

This has literally nothing to do with infidelity and unfaithfulness.

" Women's "time frame for attractiveness" is far larger and less rigid that you might imagine. This happens often, unless you live in some shit-hole like India or China that pretends women somehow expire when they turn 27. That's just fucking stupid, and no, there's no argument to be had about it. "

Women hit the wall at age 30 I'm sure you are aware of this concept. This doesn't mean that they are just completely undesirable when that happens. You realize that many men opt to marry younger women than themselves. Do you understand why that is?

" You don't deserve my best, or anyone else's. You're still struggling with the kindergarten lessons like "treat others with kindness."

Discussing attraction has nothing to do with treating people without kindness, no idea where you are getting that from.

Lastly,

" Women are allowed to like, want, or value whatever they choose, just as men are. "

" So you're discounting 90% of women based on their looks alone? How fucking shallow are you? You must be terribly lonely. "

You realize you contradicted yourself there pretty hard, right?

[–]raziphel2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're 19, I'm 40. I've literally been dating for longer than you've been alive.

You're unfailingly holding on to a juvenile, toxic, and self-destructive understanding of how the world and relationships work, and you - in your teenage arrogance - insist on arguing and proselytizing in a decidedly anti-redpill space. What the fuck did you expect would happen?

If you want answers, you first have to let go of the shit that's holding you back. ALL of it. I'm serious. dig out all the toxic bullshit and start over.

You're not doing that though, are you? No, you're doubling down to defend the rationalizations of TRP misogyny. Do you know what that means? Do you know what that tells us? It says that you don't really want answers - you want validation, but without actually doing the cognitive and ethical work necessary to change your position. I will not give you that. You don't get an A+ for D- effort.

I've literally presented you with better and more correct answers than what you hold and laid out why, but you refuse to listen or understand. Hell, half the information- again, basic kindergarten level ethics - you've flatly admitted that you're incapable of understanding. Use your imagination and figure it out. If you cannot figure out how "attraction" and "kindness" relate, that is a colossal red flag signifying a massive lack of basic human empathy.

I am very right to call you a child. You've got a hell of a lot of growing up to do. I suggest you do it sooner than later.

Here, since you need a basic lesson in cause and effect: holding toxic ideas about what women want is not treating them with kindness, respect, or support. They see this in your behavior and react accordingly. On top of that, holding such beliefs as truths is factually and morally wrong.

[–]reddit3091 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]raziphel4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do your own research on the impacts this has on others before you go straight for ignorant denial. If you don't understand a term, look it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity#Toxic_masculinity

You're right, there's nothing wrong with attraction, it is part of us, but it's not wholly determined by biology and everyone as agents of free will get to determine what that means. Don't rely on appeals to biology fallacies. Don't reply on your assumptions of attraction to define what others find attractive. Don't reply on what you think "society" says either, especially when society is laden with systemic bigotry.

If your answers do not account for complexity, context, and individual decision-making processes, your answers will inevitably be false. The world is far more complex than what you're allowing for.

[–]reddit3090 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never said looks and money are the ONLY things that matter. Why would I write a 10 page paper for you explaining different personality traits that are attractive. Looks and money DO matter and are the most important thing for younger people especially. Men want a beautiful wife to make babies with. Women want a handsome guy with money to make babies with and take care of the family. When you get older you stop caring about those things because you really just want to be happy. Considering you are 40, you have passed the wall by quite a lot and know that you aren't going to be able to get a highly successful good looking guy to commit to you because he has much better options. Call it misogyny, and deny what young beautiful women are attracted to, you are just triggered that you can't be with a high value guy.

You either have had kids or not, either way you definitely aren't going to have anymore at this point, so a good looking guy with good genes is not even remotely important to you at all when considering a guy to be with especially considering your looks are worse than when you were younger. But don't act like understanding that young beautiful women want a handsome money maker is misogynistic because it isn't.

In my original post, I already acknowledged how toxic the red pill forums are which is why I turned away from them. The abusive and manipulative tactics are not appealing to me or any true red pilled guy. You will find tons of misogyny if you go looking through those forums or even some youtube channels. But true red pilled guys are not misogynists.

Are you a feminist?

[–]raziphel5 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Those traits were the only things you listed. You don't need to write a ten page paper to communicate more clearly. You still haven't stated that individuals have different priorities, you're just doubling down on your beliefs. Don't set unrealistic standards and then throw your hands up in mock defeat either. That's a base logic fallacy and a manipulation tactic.

Stop assuming your rationalizations are universal motivators, or that everyone is as shallow as you. We've already had this conversation. You're promoting base "appeal to nature" fallacies and your wholly limited opinions as universals. That is utter foolishness, and you're too arrogant to consider that maybe, just maybe, you're not correct. Do a google search for the Dunning Kruger Effect, consider how it applies to you, then actively start questioning why you believe you're right.

40 isn't past any wall, kid, and to think otherwise is laughable. You thinking so is objectively foolish, absolutely shallow, and self-defeating. Even by your laughably low perception of success, I've been dating "young, beautiful women" for the last two decades. I'm poly, so it's been roughly three at a time for the last decade, much of that while married. Don't project your personal insecurities and fears onto me - take responsibility for your own shit. Do the work.

You say redpill abuse and manipulation tactics are toxic, and you're right about that, but dude... you're still promoting redpill bullshit. You lack the perspective to understand how. Why do you think I'm being so hard on you here? If this were racism, you'd fall under the "fellow traveler" category. If you don't know what that is, look it up.

If you want to get away from the redpill cult, you need to drop and re-inspect everything they promote, and you're not doing that.

"True Red Pill" is a red herring fallacy. If you don't understand that, look it up too.

Yes I'm a feminist. 4th wave intersectionalist, at minimum, but a more accurate descriotion is that I'm a straight-up abolitionist. If you think you can use that to dismiss me, don't. Feminism and anti-racism groups have decades of wonderful cognitive tools for understanding how people and societies work, and I sincerely suggest you investigate that toolbox. You might actually learn something useful and make your way out of the negotiation phase of grief processing. If you don't know what that means, look that up too.

I'm no longer replying to any of this because I've got better things to do and I'm not going to repeat myself further. The onus of responsibility is all on you. Either grow past all this bullshit properly... or don't. Your choice.

[–]reddit3091 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]buckythezucky4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Desirable things in women: beautiful, gives consistent sex, cooks, takes good care of the kids

Desirable things in men: earns high income and/or rich, ripped, tall, buff, good looking, high status.

This viewpoint basically sucks the life out of relationships. Why, you ask? It's completely, extraordinarily shallow. Look at all the things not included in this list, things that are among the most important to making a human connection: compatible personalities, compatible sexual tastes and sex drives , all of these are factors that are not "desirable" things you could make a general laundry list of, but factors that take the respective two people into account and frankly, it's insulting.

I, as a man, no, a person , am more than my income, height, status, looks, whatever. And should a successful relationship not be one of mutual support? Where both partners accept each other, flaws and all? Pretending to be strong in front of one's partner is a symptom of fear. Fear of being dropped because the real you is not flawless, has ugly, unattractive sides to it. It's like that for everyone. And the fear is normal, too, and the more prone to obsession your personality is, the stronger it is.

Comparing who has it better or worse just isn't an activity that is likely to yield any positive results, ever. Maybe it boosts your confidence for a bit, but do you have to put others down for that? Of course you're generally as valuable as anyone else. No need to put women down for that.

A huge chunk of finding someone suitable is, sadly, dumb luck. Of course you can adjust some measure of likelihood by improving yourself in a way that makes you more visually appealing, or at least a bit more comfortable in your skin, but that adjustment, honestly, is minimal. One thing philosophies like the red pill try to do is give you an illusion of control over the situation, but you can't assume said control. I think it is better to just accept that fact, even though it's pretty daunting. And this yearning for control also explains their fetishization of "self-improvement", which appears to be becoming a kind of replacement religion in western society.

This got rambly fast, so to reiterate my most important point:

So in an LTR a woman trades her youthful beauty (short period of time) for a life time (much longer period of time) of being taken care of by a man.

This transactional view of relationships will function as a wall between you and happiness if you let it dictate your life.

Let me paraphrase one of my favorite quotes from Neon Genesis Evangelion to conclude:

"If you change your perspective, you will often find that a seemingly objective truth was just a subjective opinion you do not have to share; but instead of questioning the seemingly objective truth, one will often build complicated thought structures on top of it and believe it to be 'deep insight' ".

[–]reddit3090 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Dude when I said

Desirable things in women: beautiful, gives consistent sex, cooks, takes good care of the kids

Desirable things in men: earns high income and/or rich, ripped, tall, buff, good looking, high status."

I was only trying to list things unrelated to personality and morals. I'm not going to write a page long about everything else such as personality, sex drive and tastes. Obviously when it comes to an LTR, those things are the most important and I never said they are not. These are just "desirable things" that attract the opposite sex - looks and money. I didn't say desirable traits, or views, or anything. I said things.

" This transactional view of relationships will function as a wall between you and happiness if you let it dictate your life. "

I agree with you there.

" I, as a man, no, a person , am more than my income, height, status, looks, whatever. And should a successful relationship not be one of mutual support? Where both partners accept each other, flaws and all? Pretending to be strong in front of one's partner is a symptom of fear. Fear of being dropped because the real you is not flawless, has ugly, unattractive sides to it. It's like that for everyone. And the fear is normal, too, and the more prone to obsession your personality is, the stronger it is. "

I really dont get where you are going with that. I never said we aren't people, or that a relationship shouldn't have mutual support. Or that we shouldn't accept each others flaws. Or that I am flawless...

[–]LaserFace7782 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309-1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]thebassoonist063 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

That's the funny thing. They are pursued which makes them think they are more valuable long term but they're only more valuable short term because of when she is pursued.

Several reasons they are pursued:

A woman is primarily pursued in her prime, which is when she is at her highest value (SMV) which is also when the man is no where near his highest value.

Women are subtle, not direct, so they will never approach by their very nature. It just makes more sense for the man to do it. "I want to take care you" not "I want you to take care of me".

Looks matter for both sides, but looks are more important for the woman to have. A man approaches her based on her looks. Not the other way around.

My criteria lists superficial qualities that are commonly desired. It's not what everyone looks for because they are unreasonable expectations. But the men who do meet those ideals, are spoiled for choice.

[–]MissNietzsche3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]raziphel2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]rrroqitsci1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

“Never put a woman on a pedestal”

You could have learned that at 100’s of other sites, if not 1000’s. And you wouldn’t have had to deal with the misogynistic BS in RP. This isn’t even original to RP.

All the decent concepts in RP came from other sources. RP added the misogynistic BS. And that BS is supported and encouraged by the “vanguard” and the endorsed contributors. I’ve seen them do it.

A lot of desperate guys are brainwashed by the RP and don’t even realize it. They put RP dogma on a pedestal, heck, they put THEMSELVES on a pedestal. The man should be the prize? That’s RP putting men on the pedestal instead of the woman. That’s egotistical misogynistic BS.

In addition, most of the real RP “contributions” are based on cognitive biases, in particular confirmation biases. Statistics don’t support the beliefs, information is ignored if it disagrees with dogma. It’s at best foolish.

I know this won’t convince you of anything, but I felt compelled to reiterate my RP criticisms. Return of the Red Pill

[–]raziphel1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MissNietzsche4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I literally said we are equally important. Women just have the better deal from a logical standpoint.

The entire point of this concept is to teach men to not be desperate simps. You see it all the time nowadays. One woman got away with catfishing over 100 men to compete to go on a date with her. They flew in and skipped work thinking it was a real date and when they found out it wasn't, they actually played her stupid game. This is just one example of this crap, but it is a good representation of the mindset of so many men today. I'm only 19 so if you don't think I'm good LTR material, you would be right in thinking that but not because I recognize my worth. I'm still in college and I am not completely comfortable with myself yet. I have a long way to go with self actualization and figuring out who I am and what I want.

It is crucial for a man to understand his long term worth and what he's getting himself into in an LTR. You are right in that high value women are the prize too so I was wrong to avoid that notion, but you still avoid other things I said anyway.

[–]MissNietzsche1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you find fault in what I say because I'm really not logically debating you. And honestly, you're right to do so; if I were in your shoes, I'd think the same. Honestly, I just couldn't be bothered, and I'm very surprised you continued to speak the way you did despite my deplorable debate skills, or lack thereof, employed in this conversation, so thank you for that.

I take almost no issue with everything you said here. To be completely honest, I think females like that should be condemned. But yes, I also agree with using red pill as a tool to grow strength.

I also think, to be truly fulfilled, a women can't be a vacuous, Stepford wife. The traits you listed that make women desirable would not make for a wise female, resolved of all existential issues.

Both men and women are going through journeys. As a anti-feminist, I see it as my duty to educate my fellow sisters on the hardships of men, but I can't really accept your previous agenda either. That being said, I think most people are kind of low-value, both males and females, and again, as a conservative red piller, I see it as my duty to try to help everyone improve.

But alas, I am but a mere, one year your senior, so I probably sound like a haughty bitch lmao. I have little wisdom, so don't mind me.

[–]reddit309 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link