CMV: Lasting, intentional change is not something the overwhelming majority of people are capable of.

diffdedbed · 2020-01-02T21:57:18+00:00

Lost like 50 lbs.

Gained muscle.

Did a lot of little things for my looks.

Learned how to game a lot better.

This was now 10 years ago.

Going back in time I wouldn't have fucked me at 30, I let myself get doughy and didn't appear to have owned a mirror. Luckily for me my wife was already smitten.

Change is very doable, but you have to be motivated to do it. Most people really just don't care enough.

So maybe I'm special, but I'm special in that I really did something instead of talk about it. I'm lazy but not so lazy that I don't get what I really want out of life, I just don't maximize effort but I give enough.

As for that 90% deal, its because they do a diet they don't lifestyle change. I don't diet, my lifestyle is now around health.

akaean · 2020-01-02T23:30:49+00:00

I think a key component missing from your analysis is what is "change". Look at it this way.

I like tennis and I want to get better at tennis. Every time I pick up a racket and hit balls against one of my buddies or against the wall, I get a bit better. Every time I spend an afternoon practicing my serve, I get a little bit better. Overtime I will have gotten better at Tennis to a point. Obviously my potential is not limitless, and my age, fitness level and natural skill ceiling will all be reached eventually (I will never be as good as Sampras or Federer for instance). But that isn't something I really need to worry about and I'm getting a little better at tennis every time I play.

Have I changed as a person in my example? I think most people would say I haven't really changed on a fundamental level, even though my skills in one specific area have improved.

Similarly, certain skills are connected to charisma. If you are a funny person, the ability to utilize comedic timing, to gauge a room for appropriateness, and knowing when to stop joking are all skills that can have learned and developed over time to improve your performance. Similarly, conversation skills can be developed, reading social queues, when to respond, how to respond, how to react to verbal and non verbal queues, when to listen, when to interject, all of these are skills that can be improved through practice.

Is developing social skills different from tennis or video games in any meaningful capacity? Similar to tennis I can get a lot better with practice, and similar to tennis I would be inclined to say that I am still the same person despite having these certain skill areas improved.

I suppose in a sense this leads to a deeper philosophical question as to what constitutes change. At least on some level I could argue that I am technically changing every second I continue to exist, but I don't think that is a useful notion. I will get better at things as I continue to do them, and fundamentally I'll be the same person. So I will practice the things I want to get better at- including developing social skills like humor or conversation.

2020-01-02T23:09:04+00:00

Everyone has to have realistic expectations but lasting change is possible.

Neuroplasticity is a thing, ironically its heavily induced by exercise.

abaxeron · 2020-01-03T00:16:28+00:00

This nonsense is modern, because:

Our modern ability to witness the story of every individual emotion-inducing outlier from every corner of the world on our little googleboxes has transformed the just world fallacy tendency into a veritable DISEASE.

I'll attack this from an unconventional angle - you say it like it's a bad thing. Yeah, 300 years ago everything was so simple and so much better - if you're born a commoner, you'll DEFINITELY die like a dog in misery and poverty, probably of common cold and nematode invasion.

Obvious question - 90% of people who lost weight gained it back; 90% of academic underachievers who experienced a boost regressed back; 90% of lazy slobs who decided to hit the gym got back to being lazy slobs. Are these 90% the same people? Or is it just that people in general succeed in ~10-30% of things that they try?

HeckleandChide · 2020-01-03T03:44:08+00:00

Warning: THICCC ASS WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. This is a topic I'm passionate about... as you will be able to guess.

The OP's premise - as stated - is wrong. I would agree if the OP added "in their present mindset" to the sentence.

Listen, even if this only reaches one person, fucking read Mindset by Carol Dweck. It's a book that's been out a little over 10 years and talks about how people either have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. Most people, including yours truly, have a fixed mindset for the most part on most things. This book is genuinely life-changing. The lady who reads the Audible version makes me want to gouge my ears out but I've still listened to it three times.

The problem is that most people think that most "attributes," such as intelligence, are fixed. "That person is smart." "He is charismatic." "She is patient." "She is good at negotiating." They see these characteristics as things that someone is either good at (and maybe can get better with practice) or bad at (and will likely never get good at regardless of practice).

The problem is that this mindset is both wrong and self-limiting. Here's one key example from the study that I'm going to grossly over-simplify.

The authors took a group of students and praised half on a math test for doing well "because they were so smart." They praised the other half "because they worked so hard and focused their best." This continued for several rounds with more and more difficult tests and the results were analyzed closely.

Over time, the "you are so smart" crowd started to do poorly when facing harder problems and reported less enjoyment. They also avoided more challenging problems. The researchers learned that the students were desperate to avoid failure. After all, if the students originally did well because they were smart, then any poor results must mean that the students had reached the "limit" of their capabilities and simply weren't smart enough. After all, if success was due to fixed attributes - their intelligence - then failure must be based on the same. On its surface, that conclusion may sound ridiculous but I'm sure you can probably see a few areas that you use the same approach.

On the flip side, the "you did well because you tried so hard" group did better and better. That group also sought out harder problems and reported high levels of enjoyment in the challenges, including the failures. These students learned that failure simply meant they had to try harder and/or use different approaches.

At the end of the study, both groups took the original test again and the "you are so smart" group did worse than the first time while the "you tried so hard" group did much, much better.

How does that relate to long-lasting change? It's vital to see yourself as a work in progress. Maybe you are a procrastinator. Maybe you are lazy. Maybe you eat wayyy too much. Ok. That's right now. That doesn't have to be tomorrow or a year from now. Sure, you do need to recognize where you are at, how you got there, and that you need to change. But then also recognize that change is possible and it will be a growth process that is slow, imperfect, and full of "back & forths." Ultimately though, the attitude and effort must be in the right place to be sustainable.

That's why the "lose 50lbs then gain 60lbs six months later" crowd fails. They don't fundamentally change their mindset or their view of their identity in order to accommodate success. They self-sabotage eventually where they are still the "fat guy" or the "sloppy girl" or whatever so deep down, they believe themselves truly incapable and undeserving of lasting change. That, unfortunately, is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's also why they eventually give up. After all, if they try and fail again, their fixed mindset tells them that this failure is just one more example / one more proof that they are limited in their ability to change.

Incidentally, this is rampant in the incel community.

Workaholiconew · 2020-01-02T22:18:26+00:00

Last, intentional change, is not something most people are heavily investing either. And last time I checked we just change ourselves in order to make things easier on ourselves, so we may be ourselves in other aspects of life.

I know I only deal with the idiots at my work in order to obtain money to follow my true dream, but I am myself away from people. You should try it too.

yuckyuck13 · 2020-01-03T01:46:28+00:00

It's far easier to be lazy and blame other, than it is to be responsible for ones own life. Working toward an appropriate body weight isn't a diet or weight loss, it's a life style change. The same can go for personality and job change. People must make a lifestyle change. Move two steps forward one step back.

blackedoutfast · 2020-01-03T03:32:10+00:00

this is completely wrong. a lot of people fail when they try to suddenly make major changes in their lives but it's because they're doing it wrong. they either bite off more than they can chew or they lack discipline.

but this idea that a person's personality and behavior is permanently set and unchangeable is absolutely incorrect.

you (and every other incel or loser with a shit personality) really just don't want it to be possible. you're looking for excuses. you're trying to rationalize inaction instead of making the necessary effort to get your shit together.

all of your problems in your life are your own damn fault. you could fix them but you won't because you're lazy and would rather wallow in self pity

ridgecoyote · 2020-01-03T04:04:03+00:00

100% of the people living a great life are going to die one day. So what, it’s still worth it to live the best life you can while you’re here.

2020-01-03T11:16:05+00:00

I agree with much you say.

I think people can change but only if they have an internal baseline within oneself to change. Meaning a introverted neurotic nerd is never going to become a charismatic extroverted calm socialite regardless of what self help books tell you. But you can make some changes but you are right it's difficult to sustain that change. Probably the only real way to change is to find the personality traits you want within yourself and unlock them. Maybe it's your anxiety holding some of your personality traits back. In fact that may well be the only way to change, fix what's holding you back. If nothing is holding you back then you'll never change lol.

Of course this sub is filled with people who think they're "one simple trick" away from being a playboy Chad. So you'll never convince them, but they keep coming back lol

churnthrowaway123456 · 2020-01-02T22:01:11+00:00

That's why "Just Be Yourself" is actually very good dating advice. If you don't believe that people can change, than doing anything else to get a date is faking the funk

saladfingers4141 · 2020-01-02T23:18:01+00:00

Capable is a pretty strong word, the human body/mind is capable of incredible things so everybody is capable of changing but the majority are too lazy or arrogant to do it. People want to change but rarely put enough effort or planning in to actually execute it.

You have a toxic personality? Should you see a therapist? Nah just read a self help book. Fat as fuck? Should you make long term sustainable changes to your attitudes on nutrition and exercise? Nah just do a keto diet for 10 weeks and lose 30lbs. Everyone is always looking for a quick fix with minimal effort and then wonder why it doesn't work.

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MrHerbSherman · 2020-01-02T22:30:46+00:00

It’s not their fault? Whose fault is it?

throwawy_12262017 · 2020-01-03T04:12:03+00:00

Well, I intentionally changed into a beta Bluepill. Why couldn't I intentionally change out of it?

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Title	CMV: Lasting, intentional change is not something the overwhelming majority of people are capable of.
Author	Validationation
Upvotes	13
Comments	57
Date	January 2, 2020 9:45 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ej4uxd/cmv_lasting_intentional_change_is_not_something/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-lasting-intentional-change-is-not-something.306492 https://theredarchive.com/post/306492

This nonsense is modern, because:

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