Getting past the "mens problems are mens fault" view most women have.

Ody_ssey · 2019-10-19T18:25:12+00:00

So she agrees patriarchy benefits women.

Egalitarianwhistle · 2019-10-19T18:41:59+00:00

I find the same attitude when it comes to the murder rate. Women don't care that men are murdered more than women by a ratio of 3 to 1. They dont care because the murderers are men.

So they dont care about victims they only care about blame.

Another aspect of this hypocrisy is seen where a woman does something clearly bad- like a proven false rape accusation. Women won't hold that woman accountable, they just ignore it.

They don't police their own but they expect men to police their own.

Mostly I think they like the feeling of being righteously indignant.

huxepenner · 2019-10-19T19:47:39+00:00

Actually a lot of women get custody because they falsely accuse the man of being abusive. Even though it's just her word with no evidence, the judge has to follow protocols (which have been put in place because of pressure from feminist groups) to give the benefit of the doubt to the woman.

Lion_amongst_gods · 2019-10-19T20:39:31+00:00

So, by that logic, women's problems are women's fault?

And if it benefits women, how is it "patriarchy"? It's "matriarchy"...

HeForeverBleeds · 2019-10-19T20:46:42+00:00

it's because of the patriarchy (caused by men) that women are seen as primary care givers and often get sole custody.

The problem is a lot of people like to conflate "the patriarchy" with "conventional gender roles". They are not synonymous, because men are not the only ones perpetuating conventional gender roles. Women also perpetuate them when they refuse to date a man who makes less money than she does or who doesn't pay the bills or pay on dates. And if the man is the primary breadwinner (which women often insist he is), the woman has to be the primary caregiver

Women perpetuate gender roles when they divorce a man and try to get sole custody. It's not usually the judge granting the mother sole custody against her wishes; it's the woman who's trying to get sole custody, sometimes to the point of deliberately alienating the father from his children or making up lies to make him look bad

Women perpetuate biased laws in how they vote, and also in the attitudes they believe in and spread. E.g. it's not just men who say things like "a man should never hit a woman" or who believe that violence against women is worse than violence against men. Oftentimes it's feminists (a lot of whom are women) who perpetuate the idea that sexual violence is "gendered violence"; that men are responsible for stopping rape; #BelieveHer, #YesAllWomen, "men are trash"; and generally the idea that male-on-female sexual violence is a serious social issue, while female-on-male sexual violence is not really worth addressing. Often feminists will even say it's derailing to talk about it female rapists

TL;DR no: it's not just men to blame for men's problems. Women are at least just as responsible for furthering the status quo that disadvantages men. The idea that only men are responsible relies on the false premise that women have no power or influence in perpetuating social norms

LettuceBeGrateful · 2019-10-19T21:03:50+00:00

I don't think you can complete reason with people who think like this. It's an inherently bigoted position, and bigotry isn't rational.

Recently, I was arguing about the draft with someone, and she kept saying that "men passed the law." Who gives a shit? A handful of men passed a law 100 fucking years ago. It doesn't matter to me whether the people who voted on that bill were white men, black women, or interdimensional sentient fungi. What matters to me is that when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, I was worried about the draft. Me, the individual behind the keyboard.

Reducing someone's humanity to their sex is patronizing, and that really should be the end of the discussion. If you really want to refute this, ask them why it matters to this discussion that men are enforcing the laws. Ask them why it matters to the men who are harmed.

And if you really want to get into a rhetorical battle about it, consider:

FGM is mostly perpetuated by women who approve of the practice.
Girls are mostly bullied online by other girls.
The Alabama abortion bill was written and signed by women.

At this point, they seem to magically find nuance. "But men also support FGM, bully girls, and pass pro-life legislation!" And then you can ask them why they're relating to women as individual human beings, but not men.

2019-10-19T19:29:54+00:00

most of the judges are male, the laws were written by men

Tell her they're are jewish so she is being antisemitic. Get that cognitive dissonance going.

Honestly? You don't. Call her stupid/ignorant and walk away. You won't ever change the mind of a 40+ year old woman. You could tell her "we live in a democracy and women vote more so it wasn't the patriarchy" or some b/s but it won't help.

DickRulez · 2019-10-19T18:31:12+00:00

Feminism has shown the world female nature

antifeminist3 · 2019-10-19T21:26:12+00:00

"that women are seen as primary care givers"

Women want custody of their children. Women getting what they want is a bias in favor of women, not 'patriarchy that oppresses women."

The NOW (Nation Organization of Women-the largest feminist organization in the world) has for decades been lobbying for women to get custody and opposes shared custody. They know women want custody and so lobby for it. To claim that it is part of patriarchy is tantamount to claiming that the largest feminist organization in the world promotes patriarchy.

douglasmacarthur · 2019-10-19T23:00:46+00:00

There's two issues here. One is the assumption men have an in-group bias like women. This isn't true. Studies show both men and women are biased in favor of women.

The second is the way we ignore the areas of life in which women have more agency. The majority of politicians and extremely rich people being male doesn't automatically give men collectively way more power over institutions, when women raise most children and make up most schoolteachers, are the majority of voters, control the majority of household spending, etc.

dontpet · 2019-10-19T23:04:11+00:00

Men don't appreciate that for most women, they are very focused on their side.

That's why the idea of a patriarchy makes intuitive sense to many of them. If the bulk of political leaders were women, they would expect the laws to be even more focused on women's well being.

Projection is a bitch.

v573v · 2019-10-20T08:52:04+00:00

Men support women over men as a part of our instincts so when presented with a choice between a man and a woman to suffer the man will choose the man to suffer and a woman will also choose the man to suffer.

This doubling down against men was satisfactory when women’s access to direct power was accessed thru a man but now it’s making modern women who have access to both direct power and influential power unsuitable partners to men.

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2019-10-19T19:38:31+00:00

"mens problems are mens fault"

I have to agree because outside this sub, men belittle other men who make police complaints about their wife or GF hitting them

and they mock teen boys who've been sexually abused

and they say circumcision is a good thing.

It's not just feminists that are the problem but men themselves.

We could have shut down feminism a long time ago if not for the white knights.

petrel5 · 2019-10-19T21:59:36+00:00

The whole "but your problem is men's fault" argument is beyond stupid. I've seen it used as some sort of fucked-up "gotcha" line by feminists, but all it does is silence men's voices about their own issues. I'm assuming they think that a man in power would have no reason to enact laws that go against men's rights, but that's a really asinine assumption. Women have voted for restricted access to abortion - keep in mind that this is the gender that has a stronger bias towards themselves than men. If women in power are capable of "voting against women's bodily autonomy" even with all the in-group favoritism and girl power and the like, how can you deduce that men, as a group, must be privileged because "it's the men that have been in power"?

Feminism isn't a therapeutic movement, it's a confrontational one. If feminists really cared about offering help to the victims, there would be no reason to bring up how men are part of the "oppressors" every time men's issues are discussed.

vxd386 · 2019-10-19T20:47:48+00:00

Hm, in my country (Austria), most judges in family courts are female …

xNOM · 2019-10-19T22:14:06+00:00

How do we refute this talking point?

Well then Western civilization technology and modern living standards should also be credited to men, because women basically did shit.

Necrullz · 2019-10-19T23:57:06+00:00

RemindMe! 1 day

Easy_As_ACAB · 2019-10-20T00:07:20+00:00

"women's problems are solely the fault of women"

Obviously anyone that thinks this way is just a retard, too far gone to help.

turbulance4 · 2019-10-20T09:46:24+00:00

How to get passed it? I don't know, perhaps it's not possible. But you can try using the same logic in a different situation that would make her recognize the logical error:

Women being slut shamed is primarily women's fault. But you can care about the victim without regards to who is the perpetrator is.

whibbleymoondanc · 2019-10-20T11:46:58+00:00

Well ultimately she isn’t wrong. However, to some degree, men are biologically wired as protectors and want to do what makes women happy. We made laws that made sense to the men that didn’t know any better. We made laws at a time when giving the children to the women was the sensible thing to do. We made laws when giving women support was what needed to happen to be fair. But that is no longer the case and the laws haven’t changed

Dnile1000BC · 2019-10-19T20:56:58+00:00

Unfortunately your female family member is delusional. If patriarchy is a thing how is it that men are being screwed by it? The entire basis for feminism is men are oppressors and women are oppressed (i.e. patriarchy).

The truth is that our society is gynocentric. Women have always been privileged. Look up the tender years doctrine. It is the pre cursor to the primary carer principle. It was established because of the grievance of a narcissist selfish woman at a time when women are supposed to be opposed.

aussietoads · 2019-10-19T21:21:02+00:00

Of course it's the Patriarchy's fault. Feminism IS Patriarchy^TM.

Title	Getting past the "mens problems are mens fault" view most women have.
Author	Apupil
Upvotes	101
Comments	35
Date	October 19, 2019 6:20 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dk7jme/getting_past_the_mens_problems_are_mens_fault/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/getting-past-the-mens-problems-are-mens-fault-view.866684 https://theredarchive.com/post/866684

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