Men's Forums in a Nutshell

[–]GlassTwiceTooBig 70 points71 points72 points 8 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moonvie 30 points31 points32 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]GlassTwiceTooBig 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Arby01 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]yuk0njack1 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Pretty much. TRP is more like "the rules are unfair, so we're going to use hax to gain an advantage"

[–]mwobuddy -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]genkernels 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]joedevice 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]joedevice -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Chrh 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]knock_off_yank 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Don't have much to say on MGTOW or "incels" and while I'm by no means an expert on the topic - being a poofter with no particular reason to go cruising PUA forums except curiosity - I don't really get the hate that places like TRP get. I mean, I guess I kinda do. Some of the shit I've seen there and from other PUA joints is pretty out there and could even be "misogyny" depending on how you define that. But man, do people just not know how women talk about men when there's no men (or only "non-threatening men"/honourary women) present?

Shit, I was the token gay dude at a lot "girls' nights" in my lispy, limp-wristed youth, and the stuff women say to each other when it's "just the girls" makes your typical TRP poster look like a cuntstruck male feminist. In broad strokes, everything from the kind of mind games that will "keep him keen" to how to blackmail a guy using threats of restraining orders and accusations of violence all the way up to how to sabotage contraception to "hook him" with a positive pregnancy test scare. And that's just stuff I personally witnessed, not even including the stuff that was mentioned as advice my friends had received from mothers/aunts/sisters/etc. Is it that women tend to do this shit in person rather than on public internet forums (no idea if this still true) that makes the difference? Or is that women sharing techniques for getting what they want out of men is "just different" to men doing to same for getting what they want out of women? I really don't get it.

[–]Aivias 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ive always been of the opinion that most of the hate TRP gets from women is because it exposes that they can be and often are just as shallow as their perception of men is.

TRP seems to be a game in which, to use their terminology, a low-sexual value male can project the same image as a high sexual value male and 'trick' women into sleeping with them. This 'tricking' is where a lot of the hate is, women upset that they gave vagina to a low value man, women upset that they have been exposed as shallow through the techniques used.

To me its amusing because women are getting mad that men lied about their jobs, earnings, popularity or whatever else to get them to sleep with them and how there is zero introspection that you need to actually be someone who would fuck for social points in the first place to fall for it.

[–]J2501[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]knock_off_yank 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That implies discrete groups in competition with one another and some way of comparing them that makes it practical to make a value judgement. "Men" and "women" don't meaningfully fit that description, unless you're seriously prepared to make and defend a judgement on the relative value of those categories in comparison to each other. I know there are some feminists on the crazier end who do this and, indeed, probably some genuine misogynists who do as well. Me, I'm not prepared to make that leap. I'm just saying that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if it's perfectly socially acceptable for women to scheme and share strategies, then it makes no sense that it be unacceptable for men to do the same. Or, indeed, if it is objectively bad to tolerate that behaviour from men than we should also be policing women's behaviour in this area.

[–]J2501[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dan-Stephensz36[🍰] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xEj-mN1N67q_N4ScZIl 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Basically it's a rat race and TRP teaches (or tries to teach) men how to win that race. But it does not, nor does it claim to make things better for men on the whole. In other words, the ratio between winners and losers stays the same. It's just trying to help individual men increase their chances of being among the winners. An inevitable side effect of that is that it's teaching them how to make other men losers.

It has its place and for some it's a useful tool but my problem with it is (aside from the overbearing collectivism regarding the genders) that it's kind of defeatist. Like accepting ridiculous power imbalances on the terms of others - like a slave accepting that he'll never be free but trying to be a more privileged slave than the other slaves. I understand why some would go down that road but it just doesn't work for me.

[–]RobDog101 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

If it has then it's done so by sheer accident.

No... it's done it by design. TRP helps men who want to help themselves. The MRM is trying to fight the system to help all men. That's why TRP has a chance of being successful while the MRM still keeps failing.

Nobody should accept rules that are fundamentally unjust.

Nobody should accept that the sky is blue.

It doesn't matter if it's unjust. It matters if you can do something about it.

Even if one cannot change them, at the very least individuals should speak out about them.

When speaking out about them does nothing other than earn you mocking, and scorn... what's the point? Virtue signaling?

Try not to get so emotional.

I'm not. I'm one of the few MRAs that actually discuss solutions to the problem because I'm one of the few that actually know what's going on rather than making a blind bid for equality without considering the consequences.

Real rule #1: equality is impossible and attempting to seek it harms the status of men.

And that's why the MRM will continue to fail.

[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

No... it's done it by design. TRP helps men who want to help themselves.

Those are individuals you're talking about. Apparently you've confused them with the entirety of men. A common mistake. TRP most definitely does not aim to help men on the whole. Only individuals (which inevitably comes at the cost of other individuals btw.).

Nobody should accept that the sky is blue.

That isn't an injustice nor is it perpetrated by people.

It doesn't matter if it's unjust. It matters if you can do something about it.

Finally you manage to say something correct. The problem is, whether you think something can be done about it or not, TRP simply declares that nothing can be done about it without attempting to disprove that assumption. And that's the part I can't get behind.

When speaking out about them does nothing other than earn you mocking, and scorn... what's the point? Virtue signaling?

The point is having the spine to stand up for what you believe in. And not lying to people just so you win their approval.

Real rule #1: equality is impossible and attempting to seek it harms the status of men.

The problem with that statement isn't that it's false (it's most likely true though we cannot know for sure). The problem is the inevitable corollary. Mass behavior based on such a belief will result in more sexism as it's not justified.

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Those are individuals you're talking about. Apparently you've confused them with the entirety of men.

And you are debasing good because it's not perfect.

TRP most definitely does not aim to help men on the whole.

Because men, on the whole, can't be helped. You can help people help themselves, but most men don't want to be "helped" because they've bought into the lies and have to escape that first.

Only individuals (which inevitably comes at the cost of other individuals btw.).

Yes, life is competition. Perhaps if you grew up in a period of time when they didn't hand out 13th place medals you'd recognize this.

But let's imagine a world where we could help all men at once. What then becomes the cost? Women's privileges.

And that's why the MRM is facing so much flack. That's why it's a massive uphill battle. That's why it will take drastic measures that very few want to take and even less have the stomach to take. Because as long as women hold majority control of suffrage, they're not going to allow government to accept that cost.

That isn't an injustice nor is it perpetrated by people.

Same with the biological differences between men and women.

The problem is, whether you think something can be done about it or not, TRP simply declares that nothing can be done about it without attempting to disprove that assumption.

No, it simply leaves that to other people. There is no law that says you can't be TRP and MRM at the same time. In fact, I see great value in both: follow TRP to increase your own individual success, and then use some of that success to help other men (via TRP and/or MRM).

But, instead, we end up with MRM people like you that shit on TRP for not doing enough for you rather than going out and doing something for yourself.

Why?

The point is having the spine to stand up for what you believe in. And not lying to people just so you win their approval.

In what way, shape, or form is TRP lying? TRP wouldn't work if it was lying... it's very focus is on using the hidden truth to gain advantage!

Oh, do you mean lying to women? No. You don't have to do that. You just have to be what women actually want... not what they say they want and not even what they think they want, but what they actually want.

The problem is the inevitable corollary.

That society works best when men are men and women are women? No shit. We've based millennia of years of civilization upon that idea. Societies which have attempted to force equality have failed again and again throughout history.

Mass behavior based on such a belief will result in more sexism as it's not justified.

Define sexism in a way such that a doctor giving a pregnancy test to a woman experiencing nausea in the early mornings doesn't qualify and I'll give a shit about not being "sexist".

Protip: it's a trap. As soon as you recognize that men and women are actually different, a whole lot of "sexism" becomes justified.

[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

And you are debasing good because it's not perfect.

You don't understand. In a competitive situation, helping individuals isn't some step in the direction of helping all participants. You're just shifting around who is winning and who is losing. There's no net positive for the group.

Because men, on the whole, can't be helped.

I wish you'd make up your mind which point you're trying to disagree with. So are you or are you not conceding that TRP doesn't help men on the whole? Given that you've just said that's impossible, normally it would seem like a redundant question but... well, you're special that way ;)

You can help people help themselves, but most men don't want to be "helped" because they've bought into the lies and have to escape that first.

Yes. Which is why that is TRP's best contribution - uncovering the truth. Ironically, this is precisely where it intersects with the MRM.

Because as long as women hold majority control of suffrage, they're not going to allow government to accept that cost.

The bottom line is, we have never been in a situation where some basic facts about the sexes were common knowledge (i.e. the public was red pilled). Achieving that is very possible and requires no particular electoral circumstances. In fact, now more than ever, the means are there to do this.

But until we do it, we cannot know for sure how society would react. Odds are very high that things will improve for men even if none of the imbalances themselves disappear. Why? Because, at the very least, it would force gynocentrism to be explicit. Feminists could no longer use equality as a justification for their actions.

If you think that's nothing, then consider the following: If gynocentrism were really so hard-coded inside us that it trumps everything else and is literally "impossible" to even reduce, then why the hell do feminists try so hard to justify their actions under the guise of equality and fairness? They have no need to package it up like that?

The truth is that a significant part of the problem isn't the biological circumstances but the abysmal understanding the public has of the same. Fixing it will at least free men of the burden of original sin and constant blame and attack. I think you'd agree that that would constitute a significant improvement.

Same with the biological differences between men and women.

You're slipping into fallacious/dishonesty again. We're not talking about trying to fix the biological differences between men and women and you know it.

There is no law that says you can't be TRP and MRM at the same time.

I'm not pitting them against each other. Like I said, they intersect (in principle). TRP has its uses. Though I think its ability to help men is overrated. It far more resembles a forum for people to feel good about the path they're already on. I doubt there is any significant number of BP men who find TRP and change their mind.

But, instead, we end up with MRM people like you that shit on TRP

You're getting emotional again. Calm down. I'm sure TRP doesn't need me to praise it all the time. You merely assume I'm one of those people "shitting on it" because you are so habitually defending TRP that you can't tell the difference between a rain drop and a flood.

In what way, shape, or form is TRP lying? TRP wouldn't work if it was lying

Red herring. We were talking about injustices and I said one should speak out against them. You responded asking what's the point if it only earns you mockery. Then I said the point is standing up for what you believe in. Do you or do you not agree with that?

Oh, do you mean lying to women? No. You don't have to do that. You just have to be what women actually want... not what they say they want and not even what they think they want

Aha. What if they want somebody to lie to them? What when a woman starts going on about male privilege and sexism? In such a situation, you have to choose between speaking out against lies and injustice or increasing your smv. I think you'll agree that the number of women with whom you can do both at the same time is negligible.

That society works best when men are men and women are women? No shit. We've based millennia of years of civilization upon that idea.

Lol. Tautologies followed by an appeal to history. Somebody really wants to play it safe :D Maybe you're learning to think ahead better.

As soon as you recognize that men and women are actually different, a whole lot of "sexism" becomes justified.

In principle, what case would you try and make against scrapping female prisons or early retirement for women while holding up that equality is impossible?

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You don't understand. In a competitive situation, helping individuals isn't some step in the direction of helping all participants. You're just shifting around who is winning and who is losing. There's no net positive for the group.

So, in other words, the MRM is failed because you can't help all men.

I wish you'd make up your mind which point you're trying to disagree with.

The crap you're spewing on TRP. You keep insisting that "TRP is wrong because it doesn't help all men at the same time" and then keep agreeing with my points that it's impossible to help all men at the same time.

So let's look at the scorecard:

MRM: loser men remain losers, middle men remain losers, top men stay winners.

TRP: loser men remain losers, some middle men become winners and others remain losers, top men stay winners.

Yep... the MRM is doing SO much more than TRP for men.

The bottom line is, we have never been in a situation where some basic facts about the sexes were common knowledge (i.e. the public was red pilled).

Bullshit. We've been in that situation for a long long time until we conveniently forgot those facts in the name of equality. Now.... we've never been in a system of universal suffrage when those facts were known, but let's admit it: those facts mean jack shit when government is answering to women's 56% control of suffrage.

Because, at the very least, it would force gynocentrism to be explicit. Feminists could no longer use equality as a justification for their actions.

They don't have to. They use "women hold most of the votes, listen to us whine and get (re)elected"

then why the hell do feminists try so hard to justify their actions under the guise of equality and fairness?

To give the government cover so men don't revolt. Because if the majority of men caught on to what was going on, they'd take it out on government (not women) and replace them with a government without women's suffrage that would, believe it or not, still treat women better than it treats men... just not give women direct control to tip the scales to the point of absurdity.

You're slipping into fallacious/dishonesty again. We're not talking about trying to fix the biological differences between men and women and you know it.

If you're advocating for equality: you are. Unless you're not advocating for fixing them... in which case you're not advocating for equality but are instead advocating for female supremacy.

So are you advocating for equality or not?

I doubt there is any significant number of BP men who find TRP and change their mind.

I disagree. TRP has grown faster than MRM by a long shot. And it's done so because it produces results while the MRM has produced a waiting game.

Then I said the point is standing up for what you believe in. Do you or do you not agree with that?

It means jack shit unless you can make a change. Let's be honest here.

What when a woman starts going on about male privilege and sexism? In such a situation, you have to choose between speaking out against lies and injustice or increasing your smv.

HAHAHA. Actually, no.

The quickest way to get into a feminist's pants is to calmly and slightly mockingly rebuff her. Feminism is a shit test. Pass the shit test and you're in.

I kid you not. Feminists are the easiest lays in existence. The downside is that you're sticking your dick in batshit crazy.

Tautologies followed by an appeal to history.

It seems crazy to me that every field of science builds upon the lessons learned in the past other than the sociology...

P.S. you might want to look up "tautology" and apply it more accurately next time.

In principle, what case would you try and make against scrapping female prisons or early retirement for women while holding up that equality is impossible?

I'm pointing out that the house is burning down and you're asking for my opinion on wallpaper vs paint. It really wouldn't matter what argument I make. Government is going to listen to the 56% majority female vote.

[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

So, in other words, the MRM is failed because you can't help all men.

What a facile lie. Obviously I was talking about men on the whole - i.e. a net positive for the group - not every single man. You know that perfectly well but you just couldn't help yourself reaching for this pathetic, infantile trick because you clearly can't keep up any other way.

So do you or do you not agree that TRP does not help men on the whole? You explicitly said no but, sniffing another cop out I asked you that as a clear yes or no question which you ignored. I remind you for the umpteenth time that "men on the whole" does not mean "all men".

And keep in mind what I said about helping individuals compete. Yes, TRP does that but it produces no net positive for the group.

You keep insisting that "TRP is wrong because it doesn't help all men at the same time"

Oh ffs there you go again. This time even blatantly misquoting me. I don't have time to keep correcting blatant lies. If one day you want to discuss this like an adult, let me know.

[–]heimdahl81 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Dude, I know redpillers in real life, and that's really what they do. The gluttony of one starves many. If you ask me, that forum is far more toxic than Incel ever was, and it's typical of liberal sexists to ban the victims and not the victim-blamers.

There's a reason gluttony has always been a sin in any culture. You gain at the expense of the multitudes.

That said, I'm sure that what you're saying is "these guys are sucking up all the sex and leaving the rest of us with nothing", which sounds like incel, even as it IS entirely accurate (gini coefficient, jordan peterson, poverty doesn't cause crime, lack of sex availability for males causes it).

The problem is that when you complain "tfw nosex ever", what happens is people say you're entitled and that you should shut up because women don't owe you sex, avoiding the argument as it were, that men monopolize sex with women and women allow men to monopolize it at the expense of other men, by suggesting that if you can't get it you're clearly not deserving of it. Ironically, this kind of speech would be like a rich person looking at a hobo and saying that they clearly don't deserve food because they didn't work hard enough.

Which smacks of true entitlement.

[–]J2501[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

What I'm actually saying is 'The upper socio-economic class is sucking up the most desirable opportunities, leaving the rest of us with undesirable opportunities, over which many of us willfully pick nothing.'

Women, who tend to fall victim to groupthink and other typical trappings of democratic socialism, look at an under-watered plant and think, 'You don't deserve water.' Instead, they keep watering the over-watered plant because, 'look how well it's doing.'

And yes, a person who has everything calling the person who has nothing 'entitled' is the epitome of projection.

That's the thing is that it's actually quite easy for men with no standards to be sluts. There are desperate women out there. But what if you have standards? what if you don't want to be a slut? Well, you better be wealthy, then, because happy marriage is a class privilege, and women make it so, and all that is their part in rape culture, IMO.

So I guess that's the difference between MGTOW and Incel: I imagine incels to be these socially anxious late teens/early 20's kind of people who want to get laid but have no clue how to go about making it happen... then you have the more wizened men who have been there, done that, and maybe they are just tired of being confined to a class that can't give them what they want.

In my town if you are that desperate hornball college freshman, there are places you can go where someone WILL get you laid IF you are willing to compromise... But these tend to turn into the kinds of experiences that people regret when they grow up.

For the middle-aged man with grown-up sensibilities, who's been left behind by the marriage class, there's little a college liberal town mentality can do for that guy, except make fun of his pot belly and receding hairline. And that's all they will do.

[+]J25011 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

That's the thing is that it's actually quite easy for men with no standards to be sluts. There are desperate women out there. But what if you have standards? what if you don't want to be a slut? Well, you better be wealthy, then, because happy marriage is a class privilege, and women make it so, and all that is their part in rape culture, IMO.

So I guess that's the difference between MGTOW and Incel: I imagine incels to be these socially anxious late teens/early 20's kind of people who want to get laid but have no clue how to go about making it happen... then you have the more wizened men who have been there, done that, and maybe they are just tired of being confined to a class that can't give them what they want.

[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GlassTwiceTooBig -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GlassTwiceTooBig 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blutarg -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Blutarg 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]davebrain 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fortspucking 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SilverGryphon 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Title	Men's Forums in a Nutshell
Author	J2501
Upvotes	146
Comments	60
Date	November 13, 2017 5:32 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7cop2l/mens_forums_in_a_nutshell/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-forums-in-a-nutshell.911215 https://theredarchive.com/post/911215

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