Um, so I have some questions for you guys...

Imnotmrabut · 2017-04-22T21:22:03+00:00

Please look at the sidebar.

EsraYmssik · 2017-04-22T21:47:46+00:00

So I am actually a feminist, and I am curious as to why you guys go to men's rights advocacy. I am not here for a slur contest or shouting match, but to debate with you guys and show why I feel the way I do. I know this will be down-voted to hell and possibly banned but freedom of speech, right?

If you are here for genuine debate, that is you are actually willing to listen and consider points that don't fit your narrative^¹ you won't be downvoted. In fact, and I'm sure you will find this impossible to believe, the posts that get downvoted are the sexist ones, the posts that actually ARE misogynistic, oh and drive-by feminist trolls.

We get them a lot; tone trolling, "The MRM should be less controversial if it wants to be taken seriously," the "MRAs are whiny pissbabies who can't get laid and need to MAN UP," and such bullshit.

But if you're honestly here to listen (you don't have to believe) then welcome. But don't expect us to worry about your fee-fees. You're an adult, you can deal with grown up talk and attitudes.

Grateful that you are not forced into marriage, getting your breast ironed, being called a slut for being a female, and not having unequal pay? Since the dawn of time, men have been the dominant sex, both within society's standards and power.

Oh dear... OK let's start with some simple MRM talking points.

Did you know, for example, that:

Men make up 80% of suicides world wide? That suicide is the leading cause of death for males age 40-60?
Men make up 95% of workplace deaths.
66% of victims of violent crime are men?
50% of victims of DV are male, but there are almost NO services for men? In the UK, frex, there IS a service for male victims but they have to go through a screening interview to access services that no woman has to.
Remember when Boko Haram kidnapped all those girls? How the world went apeshit. Did you ever wonder what happened to the boys? Here's a hint, they were murdered
When discussing refugees, the news will talk about women and children but ignore the dearth of male refugees because...
The media obscures, distorts or outright ignores mass murder of male civilians in war.
In the UK, it wasn't until 1919 that ALL men over 21 and ALL women over 30 could vote. ALL women over 21 got the vote in IIRC 1929. The gap was due to the excessive number of male war deaths in WW1.
Which brings me to the draft. With FEW exceptions (Israel, Iran, some Scandinavian countries, possibly WW2 USSR) military conscription has only ever called upon men. Women now have the CHOICE to serve on the front line and good for them, but men rarely have the choice to NOT serve. Today, in the US, men and ONLY men have to sign up for "Selective Service". Men don't have the 'right' to vote, they purchase their vote with their lives.
How about bodily integrity? As soon as the West discovered female circumcision it was (rightly) banned as barbaric. Male circumcision is still practiced. Oh, and before you trot out that "it prevents STDs" line, infants aren't having sex, they can wait until adulthood if they want to get cut. OTOH, there are stories of infants receiving STDs FROM their circumcision.

Here are some other points to ponder. MRAs do NOT believe in Patriarchy Theory, nor do we believe in some Matriarchy Theory.

We reject the whole feminist view that society is an oppressor/oppressed binary split along gender lines.

Society gives rights and responsibilities and these have, historically, differed according to sex/gender. That does not mean ONE sex was 'privileged' over the other.

men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house. Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband.

Which meant that the RESPONSIBILITY of providing, maintaining and protecting a home fell solely on the men. That protection kept women and children sheltered, fed and unharmed.

In a pre-technological society that means working on the farm or hunting, both of which involve dealing with large animals that may object to having pointy things stuck in their giblets (remember that 95% of workplace deaths statistic?), and going out to fight wars (male only draft, remember?).

It may not have been fair on women, but it wasn't fair on men. Gender roles don't benefit men or women, they benefit SOCIETIES by using 'disposable' males to protect 'breeding' females.^²

Thankfully today we live in a society where that does not HAVE to be the case. Except that while women have gained more freedom from gender roles, men have not.

Women did not do this, feminism did not 'do' this. But feminist activists HAVE hampered MRA attempts to address these issues. Look at how much trouble the Red Pill movie is having, with feminists trying to ban it, when the film merely discusses issues that inequitably impact men.

Final point, that "female 77c to the male $1" is a myth. Seriously, drop it. It makes you look silly.

^¹ Yes, YOUR narrative. You describe yourself as a feminist. That necessarily entails that you believe in Patriarchy Theory, it is a bed rock of feminism today.

^² Before you pitch a fit about my use of the term 'breeding female', consider what I mean by the phrase 'disposable male'. Try and take an honest look at how society treats men. 80% of suicides while the media discusses manspreading. Can you honestly tell me that women are oppressed when society wastes time on 'mansplaining' and ignores the murder of boys, or the gendercide in the Balkans, or the falling academic performance of boys and young men?

Aprilisse · 2017-04-22T22:44:43+00:00

Grateful that you are not forced into marriage, getting your breast ironed, being called a slut for being a female, and not having unequal pay?

Both sons and daughters have been forced into marriage. In France, a man had to be 30 before he could choose a wife without his parent's consent, whereas a woman only had to be 25.

http://lonang.com/library/reference/blackstone-commentaries-law-england/bla-115/

How would you like a glove of stinging ants placed on your hands for no other reason than to prove you won't cry?

http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/the-pain-of-growing-up-being-stung-by-hundreds-of-bullet-ants-in-the-amazon-rain-forest.html

How would you like to be called a creep, pervert, and objectifying women just for being a male?

How would you like to have the social expectation that you must work a high-paying job if you want to be attractive to the other sex? I know a lot of men in their 30s who have jobs that earn only enough to cover expenses for themselves and this makes them very unattractive to women. Yet as females, our financial situation never affects our ability to have a relationship or even get a date.

Since the dawn of time, men have been the dominant sex, both within society's standards and power. The first democracy, in Athens Grace was for only men, women were excluded.

Because the Grecian concept of a citizen was based on the idea that if you expect protection from the government, you better provide protection as well, e.g. military service. Thus all citizens were rich (able to provide weapons) and male (disposable). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_citizenship

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive.

I haven't had my licence for several years now. It's the unspoken rule of my family that if I want to go anywhere, someone better drive me, and it's typically a male. It's kind of like having a chauffeur.

It was just until 1920 women in US gained the right to vote.

Women began getting the right to vote in individual states starting in 1869 (just 9 years after male universal suffrage was implemented). Largely women themselves needed to agree that voting was something they all wanted before it would be granted. Many women didn't care or didn't want it because being a full citizen back then meant the ability to be drafted. Aren't we so lucky that we get to be full citizens and not be forced to serve in war?

Now explain to me what historical setback or institutionalized sexism do men face, either previously or currently, and how they are being treated worse then women?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/wiki/faq#wiki_7._what_are_the_focal_topics_of_the_mrm.3F

I could go on but that last link should provide you with everything else.

Lethn · 2017-04-22T22:27:27+00:00

So I am actually a feminist, and I am curious as to why you guys go to men's rights advocacy. I am not here for a slur contest or shouting match

Oh boy here we go.

Shouldn't you be grateful you are on the lucky side. Grateful that you are not forced into marriage, getting your breast ironed, being called a slut for being a female, and not having unequal pay? Since the dawn of time, men have been the dominant sex, both within society's standards and power.

forced into marriage

This is illegal in most western countries and should be reported to the authorities if it is happening

getting your breast ironed

No idea what this means, just looked it up and that's called assault, also illegal in most western countries and men have to deal with things like honour killings and so on as well, they also have circumcision as their gender based issue as well.

being called a slut for being a female

This genuinely is not a thing, you may have women who cheat on their partners getting called sluts, dressing proactively can mean they end up getting called sluts or just sleeping around with anyone they can getting them called sluts. However being called slut for being a woman? Please show some actual evidence for that, it's an unpleasant thing to have said to you sure, but it's hardly the equivalent to forced marriage, honour killings or sexual assault.

and not having unequal pay

A giant heap of shite that has been repeatedly been debunked and you could have spent five seconds on google to realise this simply isn't true. Any time feminists bring this up they always deliberately leave out the hours worked and the experience of the people they've surveyed even sometimes the profession they simply put in the industry in a lot of cases. It's a load of dishonest bullshit designed to make you think you're genuinely being discriminated against despite the fact that discriminating against people like that and paying them less because of gender, race, religion or even ideological belief is illegal.

I could go on, but can you really compare the way men get treated to the way women do? Is it women running the majority of the business and politics and mass media, committing the acts of sexual intimidation, or physically abusing their spouse in most cases, and men are scot free angels.

I really have stopped giving a shit about these types of assertions, I'm here because I care about both men and women. All you people do is come here and the reality is that you have in fact come over here to have a shouting match, because that's all you feminists fucking do, you grandstand, you make your assertions about us and then you fuck off when you actually have to answer real questions.

I'm going to spin the old feminist argument of caring about equality, if you really are a feminist, then ask yourself this, why the fuck does it matter to you so much there are actually people out there that give a shit about the way men are treated?

As for you getting downvoted that's based entirely on how you conduct yourself and I've been here awhile and I have never seen anybody aside from blatant spammers get themselves banned because they just wouldn't respect other people and leave them alone or only wanted to post by themselves and force everybody to read their crap.

So I guess my final point, or rather question is this, if you can't even be bothered to respond to all of my replies, why the fuck does it bother you so much that people actually give a shit about men?

The_Bird_King · 2017-04-22T21:13:30+00:00

First off, the wage gap is a myth. There are dozens of articles on this sub and a video from PragerU debunking it. A woman claiming to be sexually abused does not make it true. There are way to many incentives for women to lie about it. You mentioned the lack of women's rights in the middle east and you are completely right but how often do you see feminists fighting for those women's rights? Never.

"Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband" At the same time, men are given the burden of supporting a woman with little reward for him. Women gain everything from marriage and men gain nothing.

EricAllonde · 2017-04-23T01:06:55+00:00

So I am actually a feminist

They make an estimated 60-80 cents for every cent their male counterparts receive

Yet again your comment demonstrates that when people are indoctrinated into the cult of feminism, they lose their ability to understand simple economics and uncritically accept the wage gap myth.

This is one of the many reasons why feminism is so harmful and damaging to society: it literally makes its victims dumber.

Imnotmrabut · 2017-04-22T22:07:00+00:00

You are taking a very limited and old school view of issues. You are badly prepared to debate matters of even learn. You also communicate issues as Zero Sum Games. That's bad.

A few issues to ponder

Issues List - Not Exhaustive by any means
Negation of the male in international convention and in International law
Gendercide - the most vulnerable and consistently targeted population group [in situations of War and genocide], through time and around the world today, is non-combatant men of “battle age," roughly 15 to 55 years old.
Male Mortality Rates - Globally men die Younger than women Life expectancy gap
NGOs have historically ignored males in wartime and forced displacement - this has supposedly changed but evidence of UN and NGO compliance with new standards is missing since 2012
In developed Countries - the Education Crisis caused by the imposition of Gynocentric standards, beliefs and behaviours which are now leaving Boys Disadvantaged and Higher/College Education in Crisis with gross gender imbalances that are growing. This represents national Crisis in many countries as it imperils that stability of economies long term
The “women are wonderful” effect and in-group bias - women are automatically seen as positive - males are automatically seen as negative. Protecting against this bias in Government and Social Admisniteration
The Dad Crisis - Children do better in 2 parent families or when there is family breakdown with the father actively involved with equal joint custody. Across developed countries, there are massive issues of the "Tender Years Doctrine" (unsupported by science) still being used to justify bias in family courts and not the long term best interests of children and society

mwobuddy · 2017-04-22T21:10:37+00:00

I know this will be down-voted to hell and possibly banned but freedom of speech, right?

Why isn't "begging to be banned" against the rules? You're basically asking for the fallacy of catastrophic consequences to be validated or threatening this validation on mods and posters. "I hope you don't prove me right". Its just such a slimy tactic.

Is it women running the majority of the business and politics and mass media, committing the acts of sexual intimidation, or physically abusing their spouse in most cases, and men are scot free angels. Or are women the one's who are fighting for basic rights, protections, and to end societal inequality in society?

Ah, black and white, intellectually dishonest, begging the question, sentences.

You're not going to get an answer because you're saying "tell me Im wrong", and then giving us only two choices.

Don't deny this stereotype, men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house.

And if men aren't, they never get laid and commit suicide. Rates of violence go up relative to lack of access to sex, and suicide is violence against the self.

To get things you want, especially when it comes to women, you have to act tough. Nothing dries a pussy up faster than a man who is 'emotionally weak', or passive sexually. He has to be aggressive because women respond to that, even as they demand the opposite.

Have fun with that.

Andpeggy123 · 2017-04-22T23:23:16+00:00

Also I think you assumed all of us are men

Dembara · 2017-04-22T23:32:31+00:00

We allow feminists on here explicitly. Go to the search bar and type in "I am a feminist." Unlike on feminist threads with MRAs, feminists here who are polite and respectful will get upvoted even by those who disagree.

So the majority of the content here is basically posts of apparently shitty women blaming men, or accusations of double standards men go through.

Not quite, but close enough.

The first democracy, in Athens Grace was for only men, women were excluded.

Yes, Greece was a patriarchy... We don't care about ancient Greece, when talking about today.

It was just until 1920 women in US gained the right to vote

Yes. Men have to sacrifice their lives to vote as citizens while women got the vote for free. Every man when he is 18 must sign his rights to be subject to the whims of the state while it is illegal for the state to impose its whims on women.

Now explain to me what historical setback or institutionalized sexism do men face, either previously or currently, and how they are being treated worse then women?

The law. Today, it is legal to mutilate a baby boy and illegal to mutilate a baby girl.

Don't deny this stereotype, men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house.

I deny the phrasing. Men are considered to be strong, yes. On mean and median they are stronger than women. Men are considered to be the heads of the households because it is illegal for them to fail to provide for their wives and children. So, women have the right not to earn for the family if they so choose while men have no such right.

Women who don't work as housewives are mistreated at their jobs

Yes, and women who don't work as housewives are not mistreated at their jobs. Those are two equally true statements. I suspect you'll be able to figure it out.

They make an estimated 60-80 cents for every cent their male counterparts receive

Nope. When controlling for job position, hours worked, and other relevant factors, women make 93-97 cents for every dollar a man makes. And the remaining 3-7 cents may be explained by other factors that it is impossible to control for. Here is the most comprehensive study to date.

had multiple woman claim

This just in: multiple men claim that those multiple women raped them...

are often asked about starting a family in interviews

This is purely statistical on an employer's part. If a woman starts a family, she is a liability and will cost the company money. A main is far less likely to choose to stay at home as men tend to be more economically oriented.

Imagine how it feels to be surrounded by stereotypes

When the law starts saying it's not a crime if it happens to women I'll start taking considering those stereotypes. I am referring to both domestic violence and rape. A man who is the victim of domestic violence is over twice as likely to be arrested when reporting his abuser. There are cases where a man has stab wounds and the woman doesn't have a mark on her and they arrest the man for abuse. When a man goes to the cops and says a woman raped him, they will quite literally laugh in his face. When a baby is born, if it's male it's A-OK to mutilate it legally, but if you do the same to a female you go to jail. For the same evidence, crime and criminal history, a man is 50% more likely to be convicted, when brought before the court, and when convicted get's 63% longer sentences. I am not saying stereotypes don't harm women but compare those to what you complained about.

Imagine being tied done and forcefully raped and then being forced into indentured servitude at the ripe young age of 18 for the crime of getting your rapist pregnant. Case precedent deciding this. Case of it in practice

I could go on, but can you really compare the way men get treated to the way women do?

No, it doesn't. It is illegal to discriminate against women and illegal not to discriminate against men.

physically abusing their spouse in most cases

Yes. 70% of one-sided domestic violence is committed by women. As reported by both men and women. According to Harvard. Further, women self-report abusing their partners (25% of the time) compared the women reporting male abusers only 16% of the time. Most cases (just over 50%) were requited violence, and in those cases, the vast majority of violence began with the woman hitting the man.

Or are women the one's who are fighting for basic rights, protections, and to end societal inequality in society?

Could we get /u/girlwriteswhat in here?

2017-04-22T21:53:13+00:00

Don't deny this stereotype, men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house. Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband. Men's desire to chase their passion is considered unequally to a woman. The majority of her questions are "When are you getting married", and "When are you having a baby". There is so much pressure for them to fit traditional roles.

I'm afraid I will have to deny that stereotype as I have found that perception to be more on an individual scale rather than societal. The bias/perception I've encountered is that women are the head of the household. "Happy wife, happy life" and all that.

Point of fact, I've seen more women encouraged to "chase their dreams" with the man holding down a job he doesn't like to enable his wife. Speaking of gender roles....right there. Men are expected to "be the breadwinners" and are the engine behind "keeping up with the jones". We're expected to not participate much in child raising, not only as evident of society's amazement when they see a father with a child alone, but also codified in the biases and bigotry of the court.

Women aren't the only ones to face stifling pressure to fulfill gender roles. They are the only ones who have been liberated to rebel against them however.

Dembara · 2017-04-22T21:34:39+00:00

I know this will be down-voted to hell and possibly banned

Down voted probably, feminists are not liked here.

possibly banned

This is not r/feminism, no ban for sharing opinions here.

Honestly the rest is just full of very wild claims that I'd rather not deal with, many other gladly will, I just made this comment to highlight the part about bans.

Andpeggy123 · 2017-04-22T23:20:33+00:00

Your historical points are good, but they've already been solved

mikesteane · 2017-04-23T01:09:59+00:00

Grateful that you are not forced into marriage

In cultures where marriages are arranged (and incidentally arranged marriages would seem to be a lot happier than the modern farce which is called marriage in the West), they are arranged for both spouses and men are forced into them, as well as being responsible for the financial support of the whole family, just as much as women.

being called a slut for being a female

Slut-shaming is largely done by women because easy women reduce the value of their own sexuality. Men, particularly in the West, are shamed just for being male. turn on your television and watch any advertisement, listen to any politican, hear the undertones in the narratives of most programmes...

not having unequal pay

This old canard. Equal pay legislation has been in force throughout the developed world for 40 years. Difference in lifetime earnings, a figure which does not include alimony, child support and income that is freely given by male partners to support their wives, is due to work choices, not discrimination.

Since the dawn of time, men have been the dominant sex, both within society's standards and power.

You simply do not understand the biology of this. As with other species, the males perform and the females select. The power is in the selection, even if the performers do have a higher profile.

women were excluded

No, they simply had different roles to play. They may not have been allowed to vote but they were not required to fight, an activity which killed many men in their prime.

Now explain to me what historical setback or institutionalized sexism do men face, either previously or currently, and how they are being treated worse then women

Too much to list really. Gender roles which expect men to support the family, circumcision legal for males but not females, lack of due process in accusations of sexual offences, portrayal in the media, resumption of custody, health services biased towards women (e.g. comparative funding for breast Vs. prostate cancer), selective drafting, hiring bias, educational systems set up to favour females and the resultant drugging of mainly male children, a plethora of female only scholarships...

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel going half-way round the World to find an example like this. Wherever there are strongly-defined gender rules, taking a single example like this is an extreme form of cherry-picking.

Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband.

Actually, this is what most women want. Feminists frequently try to deny them the right and accuse them of treachery if they don't want to go out and work.

Women who don't work as housewives are mistreated at their jobs.

A bland generalisation that you provide without evidence.

"When are you having a baby". There is so much pressure for them to fit traditional roles.

This is not a traditional role, it is a biological one.

They make an estimated 60-80 cents for every cent their male counterparts receive

I estimate that including inheritance, child support which is largely paid to women by men without accountability nor requirement that it actually be used for the children, receiving more pension money due to living longer and retiring at the same age, being supported by men etc. women receive more money and do less work for it.

a CEDA leadership survey in 2013 had multiple woman claim they have experienced sexual abuse

While women tend to suffer more sexual abuse than men it is not unique to them. If all assaults are included, men are far more frequently victims than women. I think it is unfortunate that the waters have become muddied by people deliberately conflating minor matters like harrassment and unwanted attention with serious matters like rape in the real, traditional, sense of the word.

when you get to finally do your passion you get harassment and generalizations while doing it.

My experience suggests that women following a passion are encouraged very much more than men, except for the few men who are at the very top of a competitive pyramid e.g. professional athletes.

Is it women running the majority of the business and politics and mass media

This is due to the effort they make, not discrimination. Men dominate most things for the biological motivation stated at the beginning of this answer. With respect to control of the media, see this post.

committing the acts of sexual intimidation

Actually, if you include tricking a man into getting them pregnant or using their sex to push men around as an act of intimidation, probably women commit the majority of such acts.

physically abusing their spouse in most cases

About even for physical abuse, but heavily loaded towards females committing the bulk of psychological abuse.

Or are women the one's who are fighting for basic rights, protections, and to end societal inequality in society?

Women have every single legal right that men have (go on name one they don't have) while men get longer sentences for the same crime and the family courts systematically side with women in custody and divorce battles.

Look again at the World, you are seeing things through distorting lenses.

fengpi · 2017-04-23T05:40:06+00:00

I know this will be ... possibly banned

We don't do that very much. We're not feminists, after all.

But if you're begging to be banned so you can complain to your like-minded friends about how horrible we are... well, it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that case.

By the way, I'm curious what your opinion is on those hilarious LOL MALE TEARS mugs and t-shirts which seem to be considered very funny within the feminist realm... because feminists are supposedly the compassionate ones who like to say they think "it's OK for men to cry." So I'm curious how that is-- how it is that feminists both endorse male displays of emotion and mock the displays as laughably pathetic. I've never gotten a straight answer from a feminist about what looks like a hypocritical double-game of lying and mockery that your team seems to be playing. So, yes, I'm very very eager to hear about this from a pro.

-redditardation- · 2017-04-22T21:25:16+00:00

Pay gap is tired... there are tons of debunks out there.

dominant sex

Historically 80% of women have reproduced and just 40% of men and in times of hardship this went as high as 17 women per man. I'd say we've had it harder when there's essentially been a purge on more than half of us: https://psmag.com/8-000-years-ago-17-women-reproduced-for-every-one-man-6d41445ae73d

2000 years ago... pretty sure we all hate Saudi Arabia.

Women are considered as weaker

They are. It's biology. Men are larger and stronger. Men also have a significantly higher standard deviation for most things but notably intelligence which explains the 'glass ceiling'. It could also explain a multitude of other traits.

You're going back to the first point. I'd highly recommend watching Thomas Sowell's video on YouTube. It looks about 40-50 years old and covers this well. Never married and childless women are on par. Being out of the workforce costs you.

harassment and generalizations while doing it.

This is like the whining that women get bullied online when men are actually the victims of more abuse. The same is the case with the inflated rape culture myth when men are still 75% of the victims of all violent crime. You get treated like shit as a man as well. The difference is no one ever stops for you so you just learn to cope (or become part of that 3M:1F suicide statistic).

The old tired response. Find me an actual law where women are discriminated against and I'll happily campaign to have it repealed. Not just inference or baseless assertion.

This site sums it up pretty well: http://www.realsexism.com/

Mac4491 · 2017-04-22T23:43:25+00:00

Grateful that you are not forced into marriage, getting your breast ironed, being called a slut for being a female, and not having unequal pay?

These things don't happen in Western cultures. Both men and women in certain cultures are pushed into arranged marriages yet it's illegal to enforce it. They have a choice.

getting your breast ironed

How barbaric. Genital mutilation. Males in the US are so fortunate their genitals can't be mutilated.....Oh.

unequal pay?

Don't get me started. If you're going to start making BS claims then please try and be informed. There is legislation in place that literally makes this unlawful. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but that would be a problem with the employer themselves and not society. Society has literally made this illegal. If you find out someone is paying women less than men for the exact same work then by all means, report it.

As someone already, your historical points are decent but irrelevant. We've moved past that realising that it was wrong. At least we have in Western civilisation. Saudia Arabia is a huge mess mainly because of one thing, religion.

Now explain to me what historical setback or institutionalized sexism do men face, either previously or currently, and how they are being treated worse then women?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System Boom. There you go.

men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house. Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband. Men's desire to chase their passion is considered unequally to a woman. The majority of her questions are "When are you getting married", and "When are you having a baby". There is so much pressure for them to fit traditional roles.

There is so much pressure for them to fit traditional roles.

men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house

Is that not a traditional role men are still pressured to fit? God forbid a man desires to be a full time stay at home Dad...what a pathetic and lazy father amirite? /s

Women who don't work as housewives are mistreated at their jobs. They make an estimated 60-80 cents for every cent their male counterparts receive

Simply not true.

multiple woman claim they have experienced sexual abuse

As do men. They just don't report it because it's seen as being weak and they feel ashamed. Not only that, they're made to feel ashamed.

Imagine how it feels to be surrounded by stereotypes

Don't need to. I work in a school so therefore I'm a pedo, obviously.

I can't believe someone out there is so ill informed. I didn't even have to do any research to argue these points. Surely, this is trolling.

Doubt_Cloudy · 2017-04-23T00:02:54+00:00

men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house

According to experience, "men are expected to be strong and the leaders of the house" is more accurate. I have been shamed because I don't meet those expectations.

Women are considered as weaker and the one who watches children and supports her husband.

This stereotype (and the last one) is also harmful to men. Men hitting women is like "OMG abuse and violence! call police! help the poor girl!" but women hitting men, which is equally bad, is like "Oh he deserved it." Male victims of rape or domestic violence are shamed and denied support. Sometimes, men will join the woman and also beat up the man without knowing the context of the situation but not vice versa. Family court law is heavily biased against men. Women get custody of children most of the time. There are so many cases of child support being overwhelmingly hard to pay and women divorcing men just to get millions of dollars and fancy houses and cars and sharing it with a new SO. Seriously, who needs $10 million just because she was a stay at home mom instead of pursuing a career. There are also cases when the woman makes more, gets divorce, and still receives alimony.

being called a slut for being a female

I get called a beta male for not getting girls. I get shamed for being short or skinny or unfit.

They make an estimated 60-80 cents for every dollar their male counterparts receive

Please cite sources. I believe that two people working for the same company with the same degree, experience, hours worked, and job should be paid the same. Lots of studies I see are simply mean/median of all fulltime men vs women, without controlling for the variables I listed. Pay discrimination based on gender is already illegal. If there were a company that did discriminate based on gender, there would be lawsuits and huge news coverage.

According to this study, "like to like" pay gap is about 1.6%: http://www.haygroup.com/en/our-library/whitepapers/gender-pay-gap/#

but can you really compare the way men get treated to the way women do

I think it's better to look at specific issues instead of the whole. The problem with looking at the whole is that it's hard to consider all factors and decide which gender is more privileged. Men have disadvantages, such as being the majority of combat deaths, workplace deaths, suicide victims, etc. Women also have disadvantages. You can work to make lives of women better and I can work to make lives of men better.

Is it women running the majority of the business

Is it women who also make up the homeless population, minority of college graduates, and majority of prisoners? It seems like feminists want women to be at the top of society as much as men without also caring about bringing the huge numbers of men up from the bottom of society.

Is it women committing the acts of sexual intimidation, or physically abusing their spouse in most cases

Yes this is a thing and men have been shamed and have found it difficult to get support. There are stories of male DV victims calling the police and being arrested when the woman was the abuser. There are a bunch of cases of females accusing males of rape and it's all false but the man's life is ruined in the end.

genderbent · 2017-04-23T04:15:37+00:00

I'm a feminist too, but I'm also an MRA, and I think that when they're done right, the two movements complement each other rather than conflict. You're right that you'll probably be downvoted, but not banned, as this group really walks the walk when it comes to freedom of speech.

I'm here because gender inequality affects both men and women in ways far more complex than you seem to be arguing. Even within mainstream feminism it's hardly controversial that men are harmed by the present state of affairs. As a movement that has historically focussed on the injustices women face, feminism rightly places women's experiences at the center of its analysis. That being said, effectively addressing men's issues similarly requires a movement that centres male experiences.

When it comes to gender, there is no universally lucky side. Yes, women are victims of horrible abuses like the ones you have mentioned, but men too are subjected to unspeakable horror. I would think it heartless to say women should be greatful that they are not forced into alimony, having parts of their genitals cut off with the support of western governments, being called a potential rapist for being a male, and not having unequal rates of suicide.

The idea that men have been dominant since the dawn of time is questionable at best, and quite useless in terms of social analysis; the reasons for gender inequality in preindustrial societies are distinct from the reasons it exists today. The first democracy in Athens excluded the vast majority of men too; less than ten percent were eligible to vote, and they were probably outnumbered by male slaves by a factor of 3 or 4 to 1. I doubt you'd find anyone here willing to defend Saudi Arabia's discrimination, but this sub is mostly focused on issues in the west where this sort of blatant discrimination has largely been outlawed. While no women could vote in the US before the 1920s, it's madness to pretend that men weren't denied the vote too; it wasn't until the mid 1960s that minority men (and women) were enfranchised.

In terms of historical setbacks and institutionalised sexism, how about the draft? How about men making up 90% of workplace deaths and 71% of the homeless? How about legal male genital mutilation? How about Guantanamo Bay? What about slavery - there are more men in forced labour today than at the height of the Atlantic slave trade. What about male rape victims being excluded from statistics if their attacker is female? (the CDC's NISVS classifies them as "made to penetrate" rather than rape) What about sentencing disparity (men receive 63% longer sentences on average for the same crime) ?

While women face great pressure to confirm to stereotypical gender roles within the home, so do men. That being said, women have made greater strides in this area - women's increased participation in the workforce greatly outstrips measures like availability of parental leave for men. Society looks much more harshly on a man who doesn't work outside the home than a woman who does.

The pay gap is a misleading statistic; it measures the average wages of all women in fulltime employment vs the average wages of all men in fulltime employment. That raw number doesn't account for things like experience, time spent out of the workforce (primarily due to raising children) or what the jobs actually are. When you adjust for these factors, the disparity doesn't disappear entirely, so there seems to be some discrimination going on that definitely needs to be addressed, but it's much much smaller than it appears in the unadjusted numbers.

I looked at the CEDA 2013 report on women in leadership, and could not find any mention of the statistic you cite. I'd be happy to look into it further if you can provide me the source.

Can you compare the way men and women get treated? Maybe, but that's missing the point. Both women and men are suffering. Helping men doesn't mean harming women. In feminism, women have a strong movement advocating for their interests, and that's a good thing. The MRM serves the same role for men. You may not feel that men's suffering matters as much as women's, but I think that's a dehumanising position.

Finally, for all your talk about social inequality, you seem totally ignorant of class. Most men aren't running business or politics or mass media, and the tiny fraction who are don't give a shit about the other 99.9% of men any more than they do women. The women among their ranks behave exactly the same. The fight for basic rights, protections and social equality isn't between men and women, it's between the rich and the poor, and most men, like most women, are among the poor. We're fighting alongside you, dying alongside you, and when you treat us as the enemy, the only people who benefit are the rich.

Badgerz92 · 2017-04-23T04:42:45+00:00

shouldn't you be grateful you are on the lucky side

and you're the reason most of us don't like feminism. Either you don't know anything about men's issues, or you don't care. If it's the former, try learning about men's issues instead of writing such a long rant. Here's a start from our sidebar, and you should also look into a recent movie about MRAs

JestyerAverageJoe · 2017-04-23T12:37:55+00:00

You are the problem. Your sniveling self-assured arrogance and faux inquisitiveness are showing. Quit pretending you care about the other half of humanity. We can tell when you're disingenuous. But of course you are. You're a feminist.

Dont_Get_Upsetti · 2017-04-22T21:01:25+00:00

When are we going to close the wage gap between Asian-americans and whites?

Draggonzz · 2017-04-22T23:37:13+00:00

I hope you'll stick around, Not Becky. You'll learn some stuff.

ABC_Florida · 2017-04-23T22:14:50+00:00

There have been quite a few feminists doing similar posts in this sub. Some are sincere, like you. Others are here to mock people. I think I'm not mistaken, if I say, it is a more welcoming community than female aligned ones. E.G. /r/TwoXChromosomes, /r/feminism, /r/AskWomen, /r/AskFeminist. I've seen things said in this forum which are much worse than the things which got me banned from the aforementioned subreddits. Although, I can't speak about the possible bans in this sub, but usually I see multiple insults here, so I assume no bans were issued.

Now my answers. Men are not scot-free angels, to start with. Simply people like simple things, they make small alterations to the world they experience, and they try to simplify that, so they need less energy to paint a picture about their surroundings. So they generalize. PEOPLE, not men.

So I am actually a feminist, and I am curious as to why you guys go to men's rights advocacy.

Why am I here speaking to you? Because I believe the most influential part of feminism is not about equality anymore. (This sentence would earn at least a deleted comment in FeMRADebates, if not a ban.) I believe that the movement have achieved to make women equal. At least in the parts of the world where the movement is most prevalent. And now the most influential part is for the benefit of women (beyond the rights of men), but mostly for the benefit of feminists.

But sure, we all have our stereotypes, shouldn't you be grateful you are on the lucky side.

And why am I lucky? Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with being a male. But what facts make you say, I'm luckier than you?

Grateful that you are not forced into marriage, getting your breast ironed, being called a slut for being a female, and not having unequal pay?

Well, that shit mostly happens in third world countries. Or to people insisting to their shitty traditions. If I'm not mistaken. So as I said, feminism has reached its goals in some regions of the world. What can you do to change the fate of those women in those countries? Well, 'equal pay for equal work' is a PR BS from Obama. Like the 77 cent for a dollar. Judge it yourself if you have some time. Simply it's the difference among working men and working women. Regardless of the hours of paid work. But there are other little lies in the study too. If you're interested, I can tell. You know I believe in equal pay for equal work. But I think employers should be compensated by the government for the added risk of employing a female. Because it's in the interest of society, families, and women; to create an environment suitable for bringing up a child. And as I think we agree, it's her business when/if she will have a child. So why should the employer bear the consequences of paying for her leave?

Since the dawn of time, men have been the dominant sex, both within society's standards and power.

Yep. When physical power was everything, for sure. But as humans evolved into societies, its importance deteriorated. You have the opportunity in the western world to everything a man has. It's on you if you fail. Have to say though, folks like Cleopatra, Queen Victoria, Marie Slodowska, Margaret Thatcher, Madeleine Albright, Jutta Kleinschmidt and Condoleeza Rice were born.

The first democracy, in Athens Grace was for only men, women were excluded.

"Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens." Yeah, that was not equality. But the right meant a service to the society. Above having a family.

Now explain to me what historical setback or institutionalized sexism do men face, either previously or currently, and how they are being treated worse then women?

Their lives is valued the least in society. "Women and children first". Boko Haram abducts girls, all hashtags around the social media. Fine. Kills schoolboys, much less attention. There's no government legislation to help them with quotas. You don't see quotas for male kindergarten teachers to make them more gender equal. Nobody cares how much more the best female model makes than the male. Not that I think people should care. So why are there quotas for women anywhere? How is it equal to have access to something the other sex has none?

Don't deny this stereotype, men are considered to be strong and the leaders of the house.

IME bossing me around in the family are mostly women. Men are much more critic of my life choices. That goes against my life experiences. IME men are more likely to prefer peace, than being the undisputed boss. It is much easier to deal with male A-holes. You tell them to go fuck themselves. Do it to a woman, you are at least rude, if not sexist.

The majority of her questions are "When are you getting married", and "When are you having a baby". There is so much pressure for them to fit traditional roles.

It rings a bell. Wait, I've been asked such questions.

Is it women running the majority of the business and politics and mass media, committing the acts of sexual intimidation, or physically abusing their spouse in most cases, and men are scot free angels.

What's that? What about running the majority of the business? Women can do shitty things too, when in charge. Marry Barra covering up the GM ignition fault scandal. Testing the waters, and coming forward to apologize when it's clear, she has to. It's a shit a man in the same position would do.

Or are women the one's who are fighting for basic rights, protections, and to end societal inequality in society?

You were complaining about stereotypes. What basic rights are you, specifically, fighting for? What protection too? You can't end social inequality. It'll always be there. There are more capable people and less capable. You only can have the same choices if we are talking about sexes; or in practice nearly the same choices.

2017-04-27T12:41:20+00:00

Why do you oppose equal custody? Why do men have longer prison sentences for the same crime? Why do men live 5 years shorter on average? Why for 99% of history only men have been conscripted? Why are no women found in shitty manual and dangerous jobs? Why are you against equality? Why is the vast majority of suicide committed by men? How come affirmative action even exists?

If feminism is about equality, how come these things are happening?

sources

Title	Um, so I have some questions for you guys...
Author	mynameisnotbecky1
Upvotes	6
Comments	54
Date	April 22, 2017 8:57 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/66ybu1/um_so_i_have_some_questions_for_you_guys/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/um-so-i-have-some-questions-for-you-guys.924708 https://theredarchive.com/post/924708

The 10,000 Kidnapped Boys of Boko Haram
The militant group has forced thousands to become child jihadists. As many escape, Nigeria wonders what to do with them.
While the world focused on Boko Haram’s mass kidnappings of women and girls, the Islamist group was stealing an even greater number of boys. Over the past three years, Boko Haram has kidnapped more than 10,000 boys and trained them in boot camps in abandoned villages and forest hide-outs, according to government officials in Nigeria and neighboring Cameroon, and to Human Rights Watch, a New York-based advocacy group.
Hinshaw, D., & Parkinson, J. (2016). *The 10,000 Kidnapped Boys of Boko Haram* - The Wall Street Journal.

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