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Cosby's [Female] Lawyer: I'm Not Victim-Blaming, But "Women Have Responsibility [to report alleged rapes straight away]. We have responsibility for our bodies, we have responsibility for our decisions, we have responsibility for the way we conduct ourselves." Oh dear, she spoke the truth!

Consilio_et_Animis

August 1, 2015
125 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://archive.is/7VqWb
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Title Cosby's [Female] Lawyer: I'm Not Victim-Blaming, But "Women Have Responsibility [to report alleged rapes straight away]. We have responsibility for our bodies, we have responsibility for our decisions, we have responsibility for the way we conduct ourselves." Oh dear, she spoke the truth!
Author

Consilio_et_Animis

Upvotes 125
Comments 84
Date August 1, 2015 12:35 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3fcvc5/cosbys_female_lawyer_im_not_victimblaming_but/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/cosbys-female-lawyer-im-not-victim-blaming-but.974251
https://theredarchive.com/post/974251
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Comments

[–]dontpet 30 points31 points32 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wise to have a female lawyer. A man saying that, wow!

[–]pnw_diver 33 points34 points35 points 10 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

By all accounts, Cosby has done some terrible things. He is not a poster child for male dispossession in society.

[–]Macismyname 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

He has been accused, that's all. The court of public opinion may have already declared him guilty but we should not stoop so low, especially on this sub.

If they have evidence, then I hope the man serves the remainder of his life in jail. But I'll never hope someone is condemned before being proven guilty in a fair and unbiased trial.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Satanic Panic child sexual abuse of the 1980's has definitely mutated over the years.

[–]electronicoffee 21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

There's zero proof he did anything but party with some thirsty starfuckers who wanted some drugs and black celebrity dick.

[–]Neovitami 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

What is the number now? 40? Sure the occasional celeb gets falsely accused of rape, violence or another crime, with the sole purpose of settling out of court for money. But 40? Many of these women are clearly not in it for the money or fame.

[–]downloadbitch 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

A woman accusing of Justin Bieber of raping her and impregnating her went on tv on oath swearing it was him. Theres a saying dont kick a man when hes down, whether Cosby is innocent or guilty theres more going against him just from reports from women than anything he can say.

[+]Neovitami -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And where are all the followup of women riding the bandwagon and making similar claims about rape?

[–]downloadbitch 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Terry Richardson was accused by multiple clients of sexual assault, exposure and inappropriate yet many models vouched and defended him. There was one quite recently within the last couple years but I cant remember the person. Regardless, the way reddit is making fun of date rape and Bill Cosby is despicable treating it as some kind of normal activity.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

How do you know? There's no evidence of wrongdoing, just accusations, which shouldn't be enough for anyone who considers themselves a rational person to think of another as guilty.

There could be 1000 people accusing him, it's no different from a single accusation, especially since the stories are all very similar and well publicized, it's not like these women came forward individually without any knowledge of each other.

In fact I'm inclined to think that the more accusations there are that were never reported that occur in the wake of other well publicized accusations that are all very similar with absolutely no evidence, the less likely they are to be true.

[–]Neovitami -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

How do you know? There's no evidence of wrongdoing, just accusations, which shouldn't be enough for anyone who considers themselves a rational person to think of another as guilty.

What kind of evidence do you except? He supposedly drugged them, so they probably didnt get bruises, and if they didnt get a blood test right a way the drugs would be out of their system by the time they are ready to contact the police. Do we really wanna "blame" women for not acting rational right after a rape, because they didnt get a blood test? Many of these women probably had drug habits, which would have shown in the blood work, which a defense attorney could have used against them.

Short of a first hand confession video from Cosby himself, there will probably be no evidence Cosby-apologists would accept.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

I would accept literally any evidence before I form an opinion on the topic, because people are and should be innocent until proven guilty, not assumed guilty because they've been accused and it's difficult to prove.

There's a place for assumed guilt: witch trials and the USSR.

Someone who doesn't think he's guilty based on an accusation isn't a "Cosby apologist" they're people who believe in due process. People like you however are definitely anti-due process, which is deplorable.

Simply put: in a fair legal system if you don't let police do their job by refusing to report a crime, and there's no evidence of wrongdoing, an accusation alone should never, ever be enough to convict someone.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

witness testimony is evidence. Maybe not reliable evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

Here we have about 40 witnesses (the victims are witnesses) - I'm not saying you have to believe them, but you obviously are not accepting "literally any evidence".

He is innocent in the eyes of the law. No question about that. And that's how it should be.

Doesn't mean he's "actually" innocent, and doesn't mean we have to treat hi as if he's innocent. We are not the law, we are not the state.

I don't think Neovitami is claiming the court should convict him, but I think they are claiming that, well, he's probably guilty. I for one agree with that. I won't put him in prison (wasn't convicted, and probably can't be), but... I'm considering him guilty.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I wonder if you'd feel differently if you were a celebrity being accused of rape...

I don't think he's guilty or innocent, I'm just reasonable enough to withhold judgement about these things when the only evidence is something as unreliable as an accusation about an alleged decades old unreported crime.

It's possible that he's guilty, it's also possible this whole thing was a lie.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I'm not a celebrity, but I was falsely accused.

Being falsely accused means I know first hand false accusations are a thing, and I know first hand how horribly they can impact my life, even if you're not charged with it.

But being falsely accused doesn't mean I think there is no such thing as rape. And in this case - I'm pretty sure he's a rapist. I won't put him in prison (due process and stuff), but I won't defend him either. I won't go out for a drink with him, and I won't put him as a "poster child" for the wrongly accused.

Because I don't think he is wrongly accused.

[–]Jaykaykaykay 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You're a fucking moron.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah, yes. Very convincing. Indeed. I now see what I said is completely wrong. Good argument there.

[–]Jaykaykaykay 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Its obvious that you're being a cunt, theres no need for me to explain it to you.

[–]wakkawakkawat 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't mean he's "actually" innocent, and doesn't mean we have to treat hi as if he's innocent. We are not the law, we are not the state.
You're arguing for the justice of the mob, which is no justice at all. There are no credible witnesses until there has been a proper examination of their stories. Until that happens, there is no evidence, just accusations.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No, I'm not arguing the "justice of the mob" (meaning "the mob takes justice into its own hands"). I'm not saying the "mob" should lynch him or anything similar to that.

I'm arguing the right to form my own opinion.

Example: your neighbour broke into your house, beat you up and took $400 from your wallet. You call the police, but there's not enough evidence (other than your word) that he did it.

So... he is innocent? Legally yes. Do you have to treat him as if he's innocent? Hell no.

If you're having a neighbourhood barbecue in you back yard, are you obligated to invite him as well (which you would have if he's innocent)? Fuck that. No.

What about your friends. You tell all your friends he did it. But they never even saw him doing it. Do they have to treat him as if he's innocent? Or are they allowed to, e.g., tell him to go fuck himself when they see him?

Yes, they can.

The fact that he's legally innocent means nothing.

It's like OJ Simpson. Legally he's innocent. Still, you understand why no one wants him in movies anymore.

[–]llcooljosh 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But in that example you KNOW your neighbor is guilty.

Do you know something the rest of us don't that proves Cosby's guilt or are you basing his guilt on unsubstantiated accusations?

The court of public opinion can still be very punishing and can pretty much ruin one's life. The fact that so many people are willing to assume his guilt on nothing more than these accusations is a disturbing trend and just proves the further moral decay of our society.

[–]Neovitami -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with pretty much everything /u/Men13 said. I get that there isnt enough evidence for a trial, I dont want to have him skipped off to the Gulags or burned at the stakes. But im glad the word is out, now people are free to decide whether they want to continue supporting him and pay to go watch hes shows or buy hes DVDs. And im glad that women now know to be vary around him, so he likely wont get any chance to rape anyone again.

Simply put: in a fair legal system if you don't let police do their job by refusing to report a crime, and there's no evidence of wrongdoing, an accusation alone should never, ever be enough to convict someone.

Its like you dont think accusing someone of rape has any repercussions at all. Not to mention the hardship of going through a rape trial, if you're a young aspiring actress, dont you think its likely that an accusation of rape against one of the biggest and beloved names in the industry(and country) could hurt your career?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It could hurt their career, so can being accused, that's an unfortunate aspect of the politics of these things.

But I don't think that's a good reason to keep silent.

Victims should feel obligated to report crimes against them, if only to possibly prevent future crimes against others.

All of this could have happened a long time ago and the police may have been able to gather evidence then and make a case, instead we have a media storm with no substance.

If he's guilty, don't you think that the first victim reporting him could have prevented all the others from falling into the same trap? Or at least some of them?

[–]Neovitami -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If he's guilty, don't you think that the first victim reporting him could have prevented all the others from falling into the same trap? Or at least some of them?

Yes if he ended up being proven guilty or public opinion about him turned around. But you cant be certain of that beforehand, of course you can be 100% certain that nothing will be prevented if you dont report it

Victims should feel obligated to report crimes against them, if only to possibly prevent future crimes against others.

I think its fair to say that victims who dont report the crime are, at least partially, being selfish and are trying to protect themselves, and in doing so also protects the offender. But I still think its important to keep in mind that we are talking about people who are in a position of weakness, they have just experienced a rape, or in this case the aftermath, I find it completely understandable that they act out of self interest.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

So? At this point anyone can latch onto this case and people [as you proved] will just take it as "evidence" he's guilty.

Opportunistic people know this is the attitude people have, so they jump onto the accusations trains to get attention and money. No one will question them too harshly, after all it's obviously true!

Frankly, let's assume they are all victims for the sake of argument. I saw we try them all with enabling rape on the others. If what they claim is true, they are the reason there are 40 or more. It doesn't sit well on them for letting a serial rapist go free for decades to continuously abuse women.

But we have no evidence they were raped anyway. And with society's warped victim mentality to convince people they were victims when they weren't, I would wager the ones that he had sex with regret it and that has been misconstrued as rape due to regret, memory bias, and outside influence to convince them it was in fact rape.

Do you really want a court system that throws evidence out the window as long as people dogpile on?

[+]Neovitami -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Opportunistic people know this is the attitude people have, so they jump onto the accusations trains to get attention and money. No one will question them too harshly, after all it's obviously true!

So why isnt it more common? Why isnt there more celebs who gets into the same trouble as Cosby? And point to me one woman who has made money of this or used the attention to further their career. I dont see any Monica Lewinsky wannabes here.

Frankly, let's assume they are all victims for the sake of argument. I saw we try them all with enabling rape on the others. If what they claim is true, they are the reason there are 40 or more. It doesn't sit well on them for letting a serial rapist go free for decades to continuously abuse women.

Yeah the MRA movement dosnt have a problem with victim blaming, at all!

But we have no evidence they were raped anyway.

And thats an intrinsic problem with rape, especially when the alleged rape happen years ago. And you wonder why these women dont come forward? perhaps because they dont have any proof and the rapist is super powerful and can get the best lawyers and private investigators can buy.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+]Neovitami -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Michael Jackson went through the same shit, just with children.

So two? And with Michael Jackson it was probably opportunistic parents who exploited their kids.

Also if you want to talk victim blaming, look no further than feminism. They're adding it to law.

And we should be above that.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Happened with bill Clinton too...

Anyway, he answered your prompt and then you move the goal post to try to keep your argument relevant

[–]downloadbitch 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Getting accused of sexual assault as a male, that tarnishes your record forever. You just say only two accusations of molestation from MJ happened but look how that ruined his life. I didnt realized after his death that he had not committed any wrongdoings.

The alleged victims of Cosby why would you do it so late in his career? Possible some of them have been changed by extremist ideologies or how you perceive a past event when you find out he was accused of assault. In no way Im blaming the victims but the faster your actions the more evidence you would likely have in contrast with something that happened decades ago.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Usually people who do this stuff are just paid off. Because lies or not, the public mindset will damage the career regardless of if the accused wins the case or not. So paying them off is easier and more cost effective.

Same reason that companies will give into somewhat reasonable complaints from consumers, who are wrong, but give so much business that it isn't worth it to fight it.

Or a legal comparison, it's the same reason that people who are innocent of crimes will take a plea deal. Because fighting their innocence is too costly and time consuming, and they have to get back to work so they can get back to their families and support them.

Yeah the MRA movement dosnt have a problem with victim blaming, at all!

It isn't victim blaming. "Victim blaming" as a concept is blaming the victim for their own victimization. Which I did not do. You tried!

And thats an intrinsic problem with rape, especially when the alleged rape happen years ago. And you wonder why these women dont come forward?

No shit rape is hard to prove years later. That's why you come forward immediately. It's your best chance if you're a victim. If there's any physical evidence, that's the only time you can get it. You can get more reliable witness statements and more reliable testimony.

Instead of making excuses for not reporting, encourage people to actually report. You're just re-enforcing the idea that it's hopeless to report rape.

I think "rape culture" hysteria and attitudes like yours are more to blame for why women don't come forward. They are continuously told how it's impossible, that nothing will come from it, that there are all these reasons that it makes no difference when or how you come forward. They get told 98% of rapists aren't convicted or whatever the bullshit number is. And you wonder why these women don't come forward?

Encourage them to, rather than justify why they shouldn't.

[–]Neovitami -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes any rape victim should be encouraged to come forward immediately after the rape has happened, so the rapist can be stopped. Just because I understand why some people dont, dosnt mean that I disagree.

I dont know what I would do if I was raped(im male), its certain that I would be completely embarrassed. If I reported it, everybody would know that some guy(assuming its a male on male rape) put hes dick up my ass. I would forever live with that label, that would destroy my self confidence. Maybe people would think im gay or the defense attorney would try and spin it like that.

Of course I would want the rapist to get punished and ensure no one else gets raped. But I would certainly do the pros and cons before talking with the police.

And all this dosnt mean I want to go down the road of anonymous rape accusations being a legal thing, like some feminist do.

[–]downloadbitch -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We live in a tolerant society. If youre selfish enough to put your reputation above the safety of others then thats on you.

So can you figure out a reason why some girls dont report assaults immediately?

[–]electronicoffee 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's called 'jumping on the bandwagon' - these women are looking for payouts. They want him to admit guilt so they can sue in civil court for a group payout. Just because a lot of people like justin beiber doesn't mean he's a good singer. Numbers mean nothing.

[–]Tmomp 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We insist they have evidence to believe their claims.

Do you have evidence to support your claims?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What is the number now? 40?

40 accounts, half of which aren't claiming rape or drugging (such as the claim Bill Cosby kissed her at a party), in which NONE have evidence.

But hey, 60 people could never lie about rape either, right?

Oh, and i'm not sure how many times it needs to be pointed out to those desperate morons trying to grasp at the number of claims being presented as proof of each one of those claims being true or proof that they are "more likely" to be true but the MORE individual accusations that arise (especially when they present no evidence) during a high profile case or against a high profile person the LESS likely those accusations are to be true.

So how about your bring us some evidence first before spouting off that a claim is evidence of its own claim, hmm?

Evidence that isn't countering you, such as a court document stating women asked for, received and then knowingly voluntarily took a recreational drug during the freakin' 70's.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So 40 completely unrelated women did not report him? God-damn!

Sorry but no evidence is part of the problem with reporting something a decade after the event. Perhaps we should encourage girls to turn in rapists

[–]Jaykaykaykay 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not all accounts. Maybe all accounts you're aware of.

[–]tprice1020 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Aligning ourselves, or showing any support thereof, to Cosby will only serve to discredit every legitimate cause on this sub.

[–]AcidJiles 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

We support innocent until proven guilty, not presuming guilt is not aligning with anyone.

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

And no one is convicting him.

Emma Sulkowitch wasn't proven guilty either, but we don't have a problem pronouncing her as a (very probably) false accuser.

So are you supporting "innocent until proven guilty" only for men? Or are we saying that although legally she and Cosby have to be considered innocent until they are convicted, we can look at the evidence ourselves and decide who we want to support and who we don't want to support?

[–]electronicoffee 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's because FAKE RAPE CLAIMS happen all the time in this country (and worldwide) and we're one of the only countries that doesn't punish fake rape claims even when it can utterly destroy lives. These women are looking for a payday in civil court dude.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And rapes also happen all the time.

These women are looking for a payday in civil court dude.

Do you have proof of that? Because if not - you're not giving them due process or considering them "innocent until proven guilty" now are you.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sulkowicz hasn't had any allegations brought against her, though if Nungesser wanted I'm sure he could sue based on the evidence he has that he's innocent, the Facebook messages he has are quite clear in that regard. Cosby's accusers on the other hand have nothing. There's no evidence to speak of. What they have is a signed court document from him stating that he gave them drugs and they voluntarily took those drugs and had sex. These scenarios aren't analogous by any means, especially not if we're considering the evidence.

So as far as the evidence is concerned, Paul is innocent, he actually has the evidence to prove it, which by extension would make Sulkowicz guilty of a false accusation. In the case of Cosby, I choose to withhold judgement, because there's no evidence one way or the other.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So are you saying he didn't do it because the statute of limitation has passed? That's the only thing that is different here.

Also - you're talking about proof Nungesser is innocent, as it "creates reasonable doubt". The facebook chats do that. But it isn't enough to convict Emma "beyond a reasonable doubt" of falsely accusing him.

If Cosby's accusers wanted I'm sure they could press charges too (except that the statute of limination has passed. But that doesn't mean he is innocent right?). And with the leaked deposition transcripts - they actually do have evidence that's similar to the facebook texts (as in - very much suggesting that he did it, but not really proof enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt).

[–]Jaykaykaykay 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Every legitimere cause were fighting for is already discrediting us by fighting for them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No im supporting a statement by a individual and its a statement most people agree with.

[–]electronicoffee 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Fuck off, shill.

[–]tprice1020 -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So eloquent.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

He always seemed nice to me.

Oddly though, he does seem like the type who would be very aggressive as well.

I guess I don't know anything, but if he did do it I am not totally shocked.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]electronicoffee 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Being a perfectionist and passionate, doesn't make you a rapist.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So was Michael Jackson. Yet he was one of most sensitive and docile people in the business.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh hey, that's the same thing every feminist has claimed every other time we question an evidence lacking rape claim of a man. The same thing we heard for the Mattress Girl. The same thing we heard for the Rolling Stones hoax.

Oh but this time it's different because "it'll make us look bad". The MRM is demonized and vilified in all media. So go fuck yourself back to SRS if you think demanding due process is somehow "delegitimizing" fighting for men's rights.

[–]tprice1020 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hey. Fuck you too, asshole. Check my post history, I'm all about men's right. That doesn't mean I have to drink the kool-aid and agree with every god damn thing you think I should. The dude already fucking admitted to buying ludes for the sole purpose of supplying to women.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/bill-cosby-quaaludes-sexual-assault-allegations/

Click the link asshole.

I supported the guy prior to this revelation. Even in the face of the 30 something women whom accused him, I supported him. But when he states, under oath, that he bought drugs with the intention of using them to get sex, I adjust my position.

If you want to stick your head in the sand, that's cool. But stop acting like your more /r/mensrights than me because you're opting to support an alleged, yet self-professed, rapist.

Also eat dicks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The dude already fucking admitted to buying ludes for the sole purpose of supplying to women.

Oh no, women asked for, received and then knowingly voluntarily took a recreational drug during the 70's?

A court document that directly refutes the claims of those two women that they were forcibly drugged?

Clearly he's a fucking drugging rapist then.

Back to SRS. Strangely enough we don't consider evidence clearing him as proof of rape, no matter how many times you little feminists stick your head in the sand and scream "rape".

Come back when you actually have evidence. Especially evidence that doesn't counter what you're claiming.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Imagine a woman flies to Somalia, strips naked in the street, lays down on her back with her legs spread, has a sigh with an arrow pointing to her vulva.

Does she then have any responsibility for the result?

Obviously a woman who dresses in a hot sexy way doesn't deserve to be assaulted, does not owe anyone sex and has every right to safely end any encounter at any point.

But is it really victim blaming to admit that there are levels of safety and risk that come with every decision?

If someone wants to argue that the risk should be less, then I agree.

But pretending like women have no power to influence outcomes is dangerous in itself.

[–]mariox19 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex in the wild can be dangerous. That's why cultures, since almost the dawn of human culture, have tried to codify the circumstances under which sex takes place. Now, I'm not against casual sex, free love, hooking up, or whatever you want to call it. I'm saying we shouldn't kid ourselves.

Camille Paglia said something in an interview once that pertains to this. She said that her gay male friends all have stories about hookups gone wrong. None of them is happy with this, but every one of them realizes that this comes with the territory.

This is not to say that crime is okay. It's not. But casual sex is something of an extreme sport. Someone should send women the memo.

[–]llcooljosh 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I liken it to locking the door on my house. No one denies that if I leave my house and I leave it unlocked, it doesn't mean that I am "wanting" to be robbed, nor would it make said robbery legal.

However if I was robbed I'm almost certain that the first piece of advice I would get would be "Dude, you should really lock your doors."

Should I have to? No, in a perfect world everyone would respect my property, locked door or not. But that's not the world we live in.

[–]CoccyxCracker 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This has been my biggest problem with this entire issue. These women waited, in some cases, DECADES to come forward. And what do they do, now that they have the national spotlight? They attack Cosby. And attack him, and say some more mean things. And there will probably be a civil lawsuit. Which means they want money.

Now, if these women had come out and straight away made a PSA style video telling young women to report this shit ASAP, because look at how it fucked up our lives by not reporting it, I would have SO MUCH RESPECT for them. The media will take care of Cosby FOR YOU. They didn't need to throw mud.

Instead, it comes down to gimmie gimmie gimmie. Pathetic.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely.

[–]Snowfox2ne1 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I just don't think defense attorneys are the cutting edge ethics we are looking for... Their job is to make whatever point they can to get their client off, not to spout actual ethics and reason. Rape is rape, just because he can get away with it legally, doesn't mean he didn't do it. Just because they didn't come forward immediately doesn't change the facts, and I am ashamed that anyone would call this kind of bullshit "truth".

Also what truth is she implying in your mind? That these women are weak if they don't come forward immediately? If they don't take responsibility for being drugged by someone? I still don't know if he invited them over for drugs and happened to have sex with them, or if he invited them over to drug and rape, but man is what this woman said the farther thing from truth I have seen on the issue.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's one thing to "not come forward immediately". ie; outside the scope of a rape kit's usefulness, a few months after the fact. It's another to take DECADES.

At that point, there really is no point other than to slander. You won't get legal "justice" waiting decades to come forward. You simply destroy a life because we live in a society where female accusers are viewed as "victims" by default. Thus the accused is a rapist, you can't separate these two things. If you view the accuser as a victim to "protect their feelings", you view the accused as a rapist. We make up our minds based solely on emotion. Which is a huge problem.

Just because you believe he's guilty, doesn't mean he did it. What "facts" actually prove he did it? I haven't seen any facts that actually prove he RAPED women.

[–]CMOS222 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

In fairness, 30 or 40 years ago it was a lot more difficult for a woman to report a rape and expect to be treated seriously, especially if the alleged offender was a famous or influential member of society. It was just as difficult, if not more so, for victims of pedophilia at the hands of members of the Catholic clergy or people like Jimmy Savile. Society had a vested interest in believing these people to be likeable, charismatic people, and they avoided the emotional effort of changing their viewpoints about these people.

[–]electronicoffee 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit. That's a feminist myth. Rapes have always been treated with utmost seriousness, especially if the rapist is black and the woman is white. Even in medieval europe a man would be castrated, his animals slaughtered, and his wealth divided up between the local lords.

[–]CMOS222 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, I was speaking specifically about situations where the assault was committed by a famous or well-respected member of the community, not assaults committed by someone from a middle- or lower-class demographic. I think also that for some rape victims there was an ingrained bias or self-restraint against reporting a famous or well-connected person...perhaps out of fear of the assailant's social power, perhaps a kind of "self-gaslighting", or they persuaded themselves that even if they reported it, it wouldn't be taken seriously.

It's pretty obvious from all of this that rape should be a key component of any kind of sex education in schools. Girls (and boys) should be taught that any form of rape or sexual assault should be reported to the police immediately, and that victims will and should be believed and supported by the police and the community. Boys (and girls) should be taught that any form of forced sex is absolutely morally and socially unacceptable, and will be severely punished. By the same token, girls (and boys) should be taught that making a false claim of rape or sexual assault is also socially and morally unacceptable, and will be punished severely.

There are times when it seems that high school students are more mature and intelligent than (some) university students. At high school age, they're forced to grow up fast and learn a lot of adult responsibilities quickly. They learn how to drive and learn about the potential consequences of drinking and driving, (sometimes) they learn the consequences of unprotected sex and teenage pregnancy.

Then they go off to university, get indoctrinated into the bullshit SJW culture, and end up unlearning a lot of the common sense and maturity they acquired in high school.

[–]AtticusFrenchToast 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why it's ridiculous to compare these women to the supposed rape victims of today like Emma Sulkowicz. Sure, it makes sense that decades ago, people didn't know to watch their drinks and they didn't have the political power to speak up until years and years later. But now "survivors" are totally running the show and you have to have grown up under a rock to not know that someone could slip you a roofie or whatever.

Just knowing human nature, I'm sure a lot of the Cosby women are telling the truth and a few are lying. But for those who aren't lying, their hardships were much less preventable and much harder to ameliorate than young people's problems today.

[–]CMOS222 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why it's ridiculous to compare these women to the supposed rape victims of today like Emma Sulkowicz.

Yes, that's true, and I don't. "Celebrating" victimhood, changing it into something to be admired and aspired to because of the attention it gives, you, is morally repugnant. In a sense, to do so is to profit from the real sexual assaults that many people have suffered.

[–]AtticusFrenchToast 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh yeah, just to clarify, my comment was a dig at the article, not at you. Sounds like we're on the same page.

[–]CMOS222 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Gotcha, yeah we are.

[–]electronicoffee 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Bullshit. You can't slip luudes into someone's drink. It's a party drug. These bitches were attractive once and used their sexual power to hang out and get high and get fucked by a celebrity and now they are old and have lost their pussypower and regret being whores. It's called REGRETNOTRAPE. Stop acting like these were some innocent little lambs- they knew what they were doing. Luudes enhances sex and it was part of the fun back then. I've taken luddes for fun - have you? If not, STFU.

[–]AtticusFrenchToast -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying none of them knew what they were doing; I'm sure some intentionally did drugs. But my understanding is that some of the purported victims were kids and some were slipped other drugs. Your comment is valid if each of the dozens of women was an adult taking luudes but I'm not sure that's the case.

[–]Karissa36 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Sure, if the woman wants criminal or civil action taken against the accused, she must proceed in a timely manner. However, her choice not to do so doesn't mean she can't ever talk about what happened for the rest of her life. Failing to report earlier is a credibility issue, but there are lots of issues that can affect credibility on both sides. "Large numbers of alleged victims didn't complain about it then so they can't complain about it now" didn't work out very well for the Catholic church's credibility and it's a pretty weak defense for Cosby.

[–]GoogleOgvorbis 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The problem there is that the decades of silence bring the woman (in your example) into defamation territory. Cosby's accusers are lucky that there are so many of them, but average examples of what you're advocating are bullshit. You can't go around defaming people unless you have evidence. Rape is a very serious crime and accusations have a serious negative effect on the accused. So the timely matter and a fair hearing for both in the justice system is a necessity. It's extremely unfair for someone to make an accusation once there's zero proof of the alleged rape and the accused has no opportunity to make a defense.

The same goes for the clergy abuse in the Church. You're right. It was kept quiet for centuries.

But now it is 2015. Instead of advocating more decades of silence and preserving rape accusations as time bombs that can tick for decades, why not focus on telling everyone to go to the police once they are raped? Children, of course, should be told to go to the parents, who will go to the police on their behalf.

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree that timeliness is important for a fair hearing in the justice system. (Although you would be amazed what the statutes of limitations are for many serious criminal charges.) However, these women aren't using the justice system. They are just publicly speaking out.

You can't go around defaming people unless you have evidence.

Testimony is evidence. You don't have to have a rape kit, etc. As to whether it is defamation, that decision would be made based on credibility of the parties.

[–]GoogleOgvorbis 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Testimony is often very weak evidence. Here is a link to some victims who testify about their alien abduction. Do you believe them? Do you doubt their sincerity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmXZqY0Asu0

Why should an innocent accused be forced into the kind of credibility battle you mention in the first place? Are we not innocent until proven guilty? Why shift the burden of evidence to the accused?

More totally reliable testimony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EVzoolYugA

[–]llcooljosh 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, she can bring up said accusations decades later, no one can deny that. However, there can be consequences to making accusations without means of proof, specifically having your own credibility and motives questioned. If you're ok with the former, you need to be okay with the latter.

[–]chaku89 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why the fuck did they wait ? Only for it to get big and cash in ?

[+]brokedown -11 points-10 points-9 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not victim-blaming, but....

I'm not a racist, but....

I'm not a homophobe, but...

etc...

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She's not wrong though. It's not like she is saying they did anything to deserve being raped.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

She only said that to preempt a predictable outrage.

If people would stop being overly emotional about everything, caveats wouldn't need to be said at all.

And it's not always true that that caveat is followed by the thing they are saying it's not.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, but it is a terrible way to pre-empt it. Outragers gonna outrage, and "I'm note <blank> but..." does frequently come right before someone proves they are <blank>.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your point in general is OK, it doesn't apply here though. Except it is a poor way to preface something.

[–]mochacola 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Victim blaming is when you know rape happened and you say it's the victim's fault. Hilary Clinton defending rapists ( who she know to be lying ) saying that 12 year old girl was seeking to fulfill fantasy of being with older men, was victim blaming.

Here, the lawyer is saying, report immediately so it's easier for law enforcement to do their jobs.

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