Skewness in attraction

manic_depressive100 · 2024-12-11T09:39:59+00:00

Are heterosexual men more attracted to the opposite sex than vice versa ? If so , shouldn't this skewness in attraction be addressed as it will lead to...

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No. You are conflating behavior for emotional state.

You can be attracted to someone and never act on it.

Men and Women are equally attracted to each other in the aggregate.

They have the same internal sexual and emotional desire for the opposite sex.

However external circumstances and/or other emotional states change whether or not men or women will act on their desire.

Some examples of external factors that change behavior:

Fear - Men can be 20-100lbs heavier than women, you're not going to let yourself be as vulnerable to a stranger who's got 50lbs on you, would you?
Insecurity - Many people are attracted to someone but won't act on it because they think they aren't good enough.
Hormones - Testosterone makes men more risk taking and so more willing to act on desire. But that doesn't mean women have less desire, just aren't as risk taking about it.
Social Status - Sometimes men and women will be attracted to someone but never act on it because they think that person will hurt their place in society.
And numerous more.

Men may act on their desire more often, but that doesn't mean women don't have the same level of desire, they just may not act on it for various reasons.

Women are just as desperate for male desire as men are for female desire. But because they have concerns like safety, pregnancy, etc they aren't as quick to act on it.

Action doesn't always reveal internal state.

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[–]meleyys 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (15 children) | Copy Link

That's not entirely correct. Yes, women are victims of heteronormativity and patriarchy--but so are men, and women also perpetuate those things. Nor are we helpless. We are responsible for our choices just like anyone else. If a woman fakes an orgasm, yes, there are external pressures that contribute to that, but ultimately she made her own decision. To deny that is to rob us of our agency.

Moreover, we certainly are not pure. We're horny and weird and cruel and gross and stupid and lazy just like anyone else. I greatly dislike the way certain people put us on a pedestal and act as though we must not have icky sexual thoughts or do bad things just because we're women.

And no decent feminist thinks women are beyond reproach, or that we're better than men, or that we're just victims and nothing else.

[–]manic_depressive100[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I don't think women are any less intelligent or lack critical thinking skills , but the issue here is the difference in sexual as well as romantic attraction which is in favor of women , which in your case might not be a problem but for a straight male it kind of is , what I am saying is that we need to acknowledge this difference instead of using political correctness, I mean there is growing evidence suggesting that more and more women than men are identifying as homosexual and bisexual or queer etc which is only going to increase , but the same is not observed among men lesser men are considering themselves homosexual or bisexual on average, combined with more advancements and awareness we will see heteronormativity breaking down leading to this pattern becoming more evident. This will put a pressure on bottom tier men which constitutes bottom 60 % or at worst 80 % this will cause a challenge to society as well as these men in general , that is why I propose an idea wherein men who are not top tier should reduce their sexual as well as romantic drive which would help them climb the status ladder as well as help country and societies as well .

[–]meleyys 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It may seem "obvious" to you, but there's no actual evidence that men have higher sex drives than women. Women may seek sex less than men do, but there are other reasons for that--the risk of pregnancy, the higher risk of abuse, the lower likelihood of having an orgasm during sex, etc. If YOU were risking getting pregnant and/or being assaulted every time you had sex, and to top it all off you might not even orgasm, wouldn't you be less likely to bother even if you were really horny? Plus there's still social stigma around women desiring sex. We're not "supposed" to get horny or sleep around and are heavily shamed for it if we do.

And if more women identify as queer than men, that's also likely because of societal factors. Female homosexuality is more socially acceptable and seen as less of a threat to masculinity than male homosexuality.

[–]manic_depressive100[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This is actually an open secret among evolutionary biologists, but we know how the woke culture would respond if someone produced a study on it , right , also the risks you said are valid but if you're in a developed countries with quality healthcare and a criminal justice system most of those wouldn't hold true , pregnancy - many ways there are both male as well as female contraceptives , risk of assault - much higher punishment , many innocent men are being falsely accused do you think the dudes these days are really going to do that , as far as social stigma is concerned that can be a valid point but it kind of seems like a victory mood narrative female sexuality was shamed but it was like a few generations ago now media , pop culture as well many sexual health advocates are basically celebrating female sexuality also many progressive liberal women consider having causal sex as something liberating rather than something to be ashamed of , it is not fair that you can switch between these two narratives and choose what suits you best at the moment

Multiple studies have indicated higher rates of homosexuality as well as bisexuality among women , plus evolutionarily female sexuality has always been fluid unlike male sexuality

[–]meleyys 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (7 children) | Copy Link

This is actually an open secret among evolutionary biologists

[citation needed]

pregnancy - many ways there are both male as well as female contraceptives

Sex ed in the US often teaches that birth control doesn't work (I was literally taught this in my health class). Contraceptives cost money. They also fail sometimes. And hormonal birth control can have side effects. But even if none of that were true, people would still be paranoid about pregnancy because pregnancy is a HUGE risk to take. Also, abortions are functionally gone for a large portion of the US.

risk of assault - much higher punishment , many innocent men are being falsely accused do you think the dudes these days are really going to do that ,

Bro, what????? As a man, you are statistically more likely to be raped than you are to be falsely accused of rape. Seriously, google it. And the majority of rapes go unreported, and the majority of reported rapes go unpunished. Accusing someone of rape is as likely to ruin a woman's life as it is to ruin her rapist's life.

[stuff about female sexuality being celebrated]

It's true that we are finally making some progress in this direction and learning to embrace female sexuality. It is equally true that we still have a shitload of cultural baggage surrounding female sexuality, and women are still shamed for being sexual. People "switch between these two narratives" because THEY ARE BOTH ACCURATE. It is 100% true that women's sexuality is celebrated, and also 100% true that women's sexuality is seen as shameful. These things do not contradict.

If you're having trouble understanding that, think of how male sexuality is treated. On one hand, dudes want to have a lot of sex because they feel it validates their masculinity. On the other hand, they don't want to flirt with women because they don't want to come off as creepy. "Men having a lot of sex is a good thing" and "men approaching women for sex is creepy" are two cultural narratives that exist in tandem. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, but when have social norms ever made sense?

Multiple studies have indicated higher rates of homosexuality as well as bisexuality among women

Again: There are social factors that could explain this.

plus evolutionarily female sexuality has always been fluid unlike male sexuality

[citation needed]

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[–]Rentun 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't come up with it

Virtually every time it's been studied there are at least twice as many gay men as there are lesbian women.

And no, bisexual women, just like all bisexual people, experience varying degrees of attraction towards different genders. Some are mostly homosexual, but are still attracted to the opposite sex at times, and some are mostly heterosexual, but attracted to the same sex at times. Others are a roughly even split.

Women are mostly pursued in heterosexual relationships. That's the nature of the beast in most societies nowadays due to social conditioning. Women who go out of their way to pursue men are often seen as desperate or crazy (often times by men). That doesn't mean they don't put effort in though. The cosmetic industry, plastic surgery industry, fashion industry and so on primarily exist to cater to the male gaze. Women overall spend an absolute ton of time, effort and money into trying to look attractive for men.

[–]manic_depressive100[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your data is pretty old , also we're now living in the day of ideologies like political lesbianism etc , let's keep bisexual people apart which by any means there is enough data showing that as high as 99 % of women are infact bisexual and not straight that refutes your claim , even if 50 % of them were to give small preference to men that would still be like 40 % of women not taking into account the other 50 % bisexual women who prefer women over men and completely homosexual women who prefers women

Women overall spend an absolute ton of time, effort and money into trying to look attractive for men.

They tend to do it to manipulate men and make their lives easier , not that it's bad because men' overly visual nature provides them with ample scope for manipulation don't act as if they're doing men a favor by dolling up.

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[–]xweert123 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Dude, no, you're just genuinely misinformed and completely ignorant of how human sexuality works. Genuinely. This isn't a world view thing, you're just blatantly wrong.

Human sexuality is incredibly complex and differs from person to person, as well as from culture to culture. Sexual attraction is completely sex agnostic and we know this for a fact; for example, muscular bodies are recognized as attractive by both sexes, and studies show that gay men and women both tend to be attracted to them of equal intensity. I'm not making this up; one simple Google search can prove this. We also know that sexual attraction is not inherently tied to a desire to have offspring because of extensive studies and tons of information available to us in regards to people and sexual relationships. Tons of people in sexual relationships have no desire for offspring and many old couples still have sex even if the woman has experienced menopause.

Genuinely, you're blatantly talking out of your ass here, and then saying I'm the ignorant one, despite you quite literally just practically making this up on the spot out of total ignorance. Do you not realize that you're doing this? You say a lot of very ignorant things in this subreddit but this is a new low for you.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (20 children) | Copy Link

We also know that sexual attraction is not inherently tied to a desire to have offspring because of extensive studies and tons of information available to us in regards to people and sexual relationships. Tons of people in sexual relationships have no desire for offspring and many old couples still have sex even if the woman has experienced menopause.

Do you understand the difference between proximate and ultimate causes? Evolution explains why the desire exists in the first place. No one is claiming sexual desire is correlated to intent to have kids for an individual. But there is no evolutionary pressure for women to desire men as strongly and this is obvious in the desperation men display. At least try to understand the argument before knee-jerk reaction.

“Google it” is not a valid rebuttal.

Sexual attraction is completely sex agnostic and we know this for a fact;

Please cite a source for this claim. The basis for my claim is an established concept called parental investment in biology.

muscular bodies are recognized as attractive by both sexes, and studies show that gay men and women both tend to be attracted to them of equal intensity.

This reads like bad science. How is this “intensity” measured ? Is there a gauge the experimenter sticks into their subjects to measure desire?

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[–]xweert123 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

They explicitly say the study, the authors of said studies, and the articles themselves, plus the results of the studies done. If you really want me to dig for the studies I can, but you are actively dismissing the entire article via a skim-through.

Here's one immediate example; this study drove to find an objective deterministic description of how sex drive works. As expected, men initially were reported to experience a higher sex drive. However with biases removed, the split was about 50/50, and was extremely variable.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36227317/

Past this point, the conclusions many studies came to came to the conclusion that the data suggesting women having lower sex drives were primarily due to cultural reasons, lack of reporting, and, more importantly, bad sex, meaning that women experience similar capacities for sex drive but have a harder time expressing it for various cultural reasons.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38358685/

Even the people reporting discrepancies explicitly state that evidence shows that men are not more biologically driven to have higher sex drives and that meta/culture reasons play a big part in the discrepancy.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39172391/

One of the bigger studies in the article I sent come from a Psychology Book that I can't link for obvious reasons as that would be piracy. It sucks that it's locked behind a paywall but there's not much I can do about that. The author of the book is a Libido Specialist that has worked in the field for decades, though, so it wasn't something that popped out of thin air.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 year ago (16 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the links. I can only go by what the abstracts say, since I can't access the papers. This is what I see: Frankenbach et al report a meta analyses that shows men have significantly higher sex drive than women. This is the actual data. They can get the difference down by assuming a response bias but we don't know how reasonable that is. Yang et al don't like the results and insist that any differences are due to women experiencing bad sex or other cultural factors. Frankenbach respond by saying "maybe".

This doesn't sound like a resounding determination of gender agnostic sex drive that you claimed as an established fact. The most I can conclude is while its possible cultural factors are driving the difference, it's also equally or more likely to be biological since sexual behavior is probably related to the person's... sex. Given that parental investment puts a bigger burden on women, it would be really weird if women were as enthusiast about sex as men are. It just doesn't make sense.

[–]xweert123 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (15 children) | Copy Link

... Did you even actually read the studies?

Oh, wait, you said you read only the abstracts.

When the abstract says that they're making a claim, the study itself has extensive evidence to support the claim. On top of that, here's a full article doing studies filling gaps in literature; a study can't just be "I'm making this claim!", or else it wouldn't be in a medical journal. It's why asking for studies is difficult because unless you actually look at the literature yourself you aren't going to comprehend it very well. Links like the one I sent you at the start of this thread exist to help explain the literature so that it's more digestible for the layman.

On that note, here's another one, with the actual study and not just the abstract this time;

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10125944/#Sec11

The Study starts off listing WHY we have incongruent data across numerous different studies and explains why the information regarding sex drives between both sexes is incongruent. It literally goes one-by-one, addressing numerous studies and explaining why the existing data has glaring issues. Namely, many of these studies had exceptionally small sample sizes (therefore being prone to cultural differences and not being substantial evidence for an entire gender wide conclusion), did not account for long-term vs. short-term sexual desire, or sex plasticity, with sex plasticity being an inconclusive field of study in-and-of itself.

They perform 3 different studies as a result, with the results being pretty clear.

In long-term relationships, women's sex drives are more variable, but, specifically when the mother is actually raising the child. This isn't news to anyone; obviously a parent is going to have less of a desire for sex if they're raising a child, and, culturally, since societal norms often place women as being the primary caregivers for children and actually raising them, general data will show women having more variable sex drives during the raising of children. However broader studies show that we see this in both men and women who take extensive care of their children. Even with this information, though, they don't drop much lower than men's, and the actual AVERAGE amount of sexual desire both women and men have was pretty much always about the same. The amount of children the couple had didn't even change that average, meaning couples with lots of children didn't have lower or higher sex drives than couples with only a few children, or no children at all. The data pretty conclusively shows, as a result, that, at a baseline, both sexes have similar, if not the same, level of sex drive, and women are more prone to sex drive fluxes due to cultural or "meta" reasons, like raising children, cultural norms, etcetera.

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Title	Skewness in attraction
Author	manic_depressive100
Upvotes	2
Comments	75
Date	December 11, 2024 9:39 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/1hbpx82/skewness_in_attraction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/skewness-in-attraction.1538190 https://theredarchive.com/post/1538190

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