This is why we need a progressive MRM movement.

flex1178 · 2020-04-28T14:33:52+00:00

Honestly after spending a good bit of time in menslib, mensrights, egalitarianism, FeMRADebates, and others.

I really just want something close to an apolitical stance on men's rights. On one hand, political affiliation is necessary for some large scale societal changes regarding the government.

On the other, I feel like political affiliation has needlessly divided us on certain issues where we as men should reach a consensus. I don't know what the solution to this is just wanted to ramble for a bit.

coffeeinvenice · 2020-04-28T14:37:37+00:00

Well if male suffering - suicide, cardiovascular diseases, early death, stress, etc. - is associated with civilizational accomplishment, the obvious next step is to find ways to continue male civilizational accomplishment while mitigating the suffering.

This can be done through technical and medical approaches, cultural approaches, and things like better male social networks. There is, for example, a strange association in male identity between personal strength and neglect of personal health needs. Obviously this can be changed, and there have been incremental and positive changes in male identity in western culture over the past 50 years.

The example of this that comes to mind immediately is smoking; there was once a strong association between tobacco use and personal strength/male identity. This association has gone by the wayside; there are now plenty of male MMA fighters, rodeo riders and professional baseball players who don't smoke and have never smoked.

Razorbladekandyfan · 2020-04-28T13:16:42+00:00

Basically Tradcon Paul Elam justifying male suffering due to his social darwinist, conservative leanings. These are 100 percent anti-male.

Blauwpetje · 2020-04-29T11:15:38+00:00

I am not interested in the question if Paul Elam, Carl Benjamin, Jordan Peterson or even Milo Yiannopoulos is 'good'. I have no heroes and nobody is perfect. I wouldn't be in the same political party with any of them if I could help it. I listen to what they have to say, disagree with a lot but also see valuable things. Elam f ex said useful things in the Red Pill movie, while on his own channel he is often rude and not nuanced. And I don't need a left-wing version of the catholic 'index' about whom not to follow or to read.

Melthengylf · 2020-04-28T19:24:58+00:00

"The price of hierarchy is suicide, the other side of hierarchy is moon landing".

I'm all for anarchist astronauts.

Throwawayingaccount · 2020-04-28T22:44:34+00:00

Wow.

That noise in the background at the first part was so ear grating that I had to turn off the video.

I agree with the point, but holy crap, can you NOT make your videos physically painful to watch?

genkernels · 2020-04-28T14:35:25+00:00

Wow, what scaaaary music.

male early death, suicide, burnout at work, stress related diseases -- you're very much open to these things.

To the extent that early death, burnout, and stress help create things that are personally meaningful, and also create order, it does not seem to be a bad thing to be open to these things insofar as one is also open towards life itself. It should be noted that Elam is very much fighting important causes of all of the listed items -- such as divorce -- for no other reason than that it causes those items. This is an attempt to take Elam out of context. And it is a brazen attempt, because although tradcons also say this one thing, that doesn't a tradcon make (goodness, one could even arrive at this conclusion from an egalitarian position!), trying to make that stick is absurdly reductionist.

Now there is an important left-right divide when it comes to the acceptability of stress and perverse work situations, and Elam is on the politically right (and indeed, wrong) side of those things, but to suggest that Elam deficiently supports men's rights issues on account of that political divide is mistake, and one that could be lethal to the MRM, because being able to approach both sides of the political aisle without judgment is critically important to eventual movement on the many issues like divorce that lack a left/right divide. Elam may be wrong, and dangerously so, but we are not feminism and there is no political orthodoxy.

Also, you're just using great civilizational advancements as an excuse to justify your base pandering behavior to women.

Of all of the things one could accuse Elam of, you really want to choose this one? lol.

You know, your audience is full of tradcons too low status to pander to women, but would if they could...they'll just end up feeding into wasteful female luxury spending because that's all they really care about.

His audience is all incels. You know, I've never heard that said about the MRM before /s. It is also telling that the argument now has to switch from Elam to "his audience" in order to disparage, not the audience, but Elam himself. This isn't honest, Alex.

None of these tradcons are going out landing on the moon or curing cancer I guarantee you that, so any tradcon who speaks on behalf of civilization is automatically invalid.

Wait, what? Supposing that the premises of this line of attack were true, how would that support the conclusion? Wait, concerning the premises...

C0dey · 2020-04-28T15:38:01+00:00

A more progressive MRM just put men in different roles and have different faults. You already know this because this sub was started because of progressive flaws.

2020-04-29T10:55:41+00:00

Of course he looks like that

ExcellentTraffic123 · 2020-04-28T14:03:53+00:00

That furry middle finger came as a surprise!

cameronlcowan · 2020-04-28T18:58:48+00:00

I don’t like his defense of poor male behavior. He and I talked at length about that on my old talk show.

rannerbeer · 2020-04-29T01:20:36+00:00

Better Paul Elam than, well any of you guys and girls.

What has the left given us these last few years? Buzzfeed? Tumblr? Hillary fucking Clinton?