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[–]AttikusEUW295 points296 points297 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Based and biblepilled
[–]AlbertCohol215 points216 points217 points 6 years ago (73 children) | Copy Link
That should be enough reason to become a christian
[–]the_cooler_spez120 points121 points122 points 6 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link
Not really. Just using it as an easy tool to get Christians to do stuff. Works with Muslims too, say this as an ex-Muslim. Religion is a ridiculously exploitable weakness.
[–]brohan55685 points86 points87 points 6 years ago (63 children) | Copy Link
Man I hate that overused backwards claim. "ReLiGioN iS fOr cOntRoL", yeah because tricking someone into showing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. Is so wrong. Evil people have used the bible for evil purposes in the past but that in now way proves the religion itself is evil. Anyone who quotes out of context verses and claims to "have read the entire bible" is full of crap.
[–]transcis92 points93 points94 points 6 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link
the problem with organised religion is that like in any organization evil people tend to take the top positions.
[–]defenderofdeen6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
What is your definition of “control”, and how would you define “evil”
[–]transcis36 points37 points38 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Excellent questions.
Evil is easy. Most evil people on top are simply high-functioning sociopaths like Hillary Clinton.
Control is control over believer's thinking in Orwell's sense. Install many taboos concerning allowable thoughts, warp sexuality to harness believer's sexual energy for the benefit of the organization, make believer want to self-censor and confess smallest details of his life to organization. Demonize doubt. Discourage questioning anything accepted by the congregation. Incorporate "2 minutes of hate" into believer's routine. Channel that hate onto desired target.
[–]kubicas1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. Many of those affected me and others that I see now. Truly disgusting and limiting.
[–]defenderofdeen-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you but how can you say that about all organized religion, seems like a broad statement
[–]autoeroticassfxation2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Don't judge them by what they say, judge them by what they do.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]autoeroticassfxation1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Never thought of it like that. Their religion grants them moral superiority without being held to any kind of behavioural standard because "god forgives". The forgiveness seems to be a moral bypass to enable plenty of wretched behaviour.
[–]foggylittlefella1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:1-4 | KJV
The directive clearly states to avoid sin. In fact, many verses in the New Testament, even after Christ’s sacrifice and forgiveness, seem to speak plainly, that now that you’ve been forgiven, don’t keep doing what you’re constantly sorry for, mainly sins. Christianity doesn’t give you free reign to sin, but those who use it as an excuse to do so, are not true Christians.
[–]autoeroticassfxation1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It seems like the standard cherry picking Christian behaviour to me these days.
There's justification for anything in the bible. It's not a particularly lucid moral guide.
[–]WikiTextBot1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No true Scotsman
No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).
<sup>[</sup> <sup>PM <sup>|</sup> <sup>Exclude</sup> <sup>me <sup>|</sup> <sup>Exclude</sup> <sup>from</sup> <sup>subreddit</sup> <sup>|</sup> <sup>FAQ</sup> <sup>/</sup> <sup>Information</sup> <sup>|</sup> <sup>Source</sup> <sup>]</sup> <sup>Downvote</sup> <sup>to</sup> <sup>remove</sup> <sup>|</sup> <sup>v0.28</sup>
The No True Scotsman fallacy isn’t really applicable though. It stems from the belief that you can’t quantify something as true when there’s no baseline for what a true version is, however, the Bible, primarily the New Testament gives a lot of “proofs” for what a Christian is, or rather, should be.
For instance, Jesus says that you will know them by their fruits, as in, they cultivate charity and brotherly love.
In fact, one could look at Jesus’ life, as well as the apostles (save for Judas) and properly surmise what a “True Christian” should be like.
I agree that a lot of people take things out of context, especially the Bible and its verses, but evil people will twist words like that to get their way, whenever they can.
For instance, the devil, when he was tempting the Lord in the desert quoted scripture to Jesus, and Jesus rebuked him also using scripture. If the devil can deceive, with only a few verses out of context, then even the most well-meaning idiot can do so as well.
My point is, that it’s a fantastic book, and in order to grasp its intent with topics such as slavery, women, or finance, requires thorough investigation and Bible study. If more people did this, then it wouldn’t be misrepresented as much.
[–]throwaway184728472730 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You do realize if you are not religious you have no objective standard of good and evil (a religious person grounds their morals in God) and thus cannot claim a person is morally evil, because on your own worldview that is merely just your subjective opinion, which is not objectively right or wrong. It’s just your subjective opinion versus theirs. So if you target hate as morally evil, you are stealing objective morality from God only to apply it to your everyday non-religious life, which is quite literally living in a fallacy.
[–]transcis1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The best approximation we have for objective standard of good and evil is community standards and personal standards. For example: "kill them all and let God sort them out" used to be an acceptable policy for good christians of the 13th century, but by modern community standards this policy is evil, although it might not be evil by your personal standards. However, the Nuremberg trials did put a legal prohibition against genocide.
And there is nothing to suggest that hate is evil, it is a strong emotion which is useful in controlling a person's behavior.
[–]9-BBN0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You do realize if you are not religious you have no objective standard [...]
Neither do you; the 'god claim' is by no means objective. But rather than building your own moral framework based on demonstrable consequences of your interactions with the world you just blindly follow what some self-appointed religious authority deems good for you (or them, actually). This is way more dangerous than you seem to realize. You're but a tool in someone else's game of life.
[–]Ebenezer_Truth0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link
but remember there is a difference between the tenets and the pageantry
[–]transcis29 points30 points31 points 6 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
Any time a believer needs special people to explain the tenets, one can be sure this believer can be steered in any direction people on top want.
[–]KaitouNala4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
Hmm... while you have a very good point. (pretty much why i don't go to church)
If society followed the tenets of christianity society would be in better shape...
[–]transcis1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link
I wonder what you think those tenets are.
Specifically, would the society living by the tenets of Christianity be able to defeat the Nazis and provide the necessary technological breakthroughs that let us enjoy our life now.
[–]KaitouNala12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
? many of the brightest minds whose theories we built upon to get to our current level of technology were in fact christian.
It's not as if science and god are automatically antithetical.
More importantly it was a christian majority in america/european countries who fought in ww2 to defeat the nazi's.
So not really sure what the point is you are trying to make.
[–]DrekkiWolfStorm8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
They're downvoting you because you told them the truth. They cherry pick verses without trying to understand what they're saying and without context
[–]KaitouNala4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Meh could care less about upvotes.
Say what i mean/what i think.
[–]transcis1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
A majority of USA and EU is Christian now as well. Does that mean that western societies are following tenets of Christianity? Then your earlier suggestion is meaningless. You clearly believe that a society with Christian majority is capable of not following the tenets of Christianity.
Let me make an even more specific question. Do you believe that society living by tenets of Christianity is capable of producing nuclear weapons and using them on enemy population?
If your answer is yes, I'd like to find out what do you believe the tenets of christianity are.
[–]KaitouNala3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Aka the golden rule, treat others as you wish to be treated. If we only followed just that one rule, many things would be different.
Majority of america claims to be christian now a days, but if they were actually living it the kind of debauchery rampant in our society would not exist, not publically and celebrated as we currently do.
These people are #Christians, much like instagram models, or social media influencers.
Also there is no defense for nuclear weapons, they were a mistake. Still are.
But the government secretly developing nuclear weapons and then employing them is not indicative of the state of american society in the 1940's
So again, YOUR POINT?
[–]transcis0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just wanted to know what you meant by the tenets of Christianity.
You say that Manhattan project was a secret, and that is correct. Still I observe that Harry Truman was not immediately impeached after giving the orders to drop the Little Boy and the Fat Man. The society agreed with him, and he was part of the society. So I think in 1940s the society did not live by christian tenets as well. Nor did the most of the Manhattan project scientists because instead of thinking that nuclear weapons were a mistake they went on to develop bigger deadlier and cheaper versions. And as you noted it does not matter if someone says he is christian, it is very possible for christians to not follow the christian tenets.
So I guess my point is, the society truly living by the tenets of chrisitanity is not capable of producing nuclear weapons and is therefore defenseless against a society that is capable of producing them.
[–]KaitouNala2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ah, my bad then.
Your original statement made it seem as if you were trying to say christianity was somehow antiscience.
Also you brought up nazi germany, but then went on about nuclear weapons, which we used to defeat japan.
But yeah... as some one who works in the military I hate nukes...
I get why we have them now a days, we have them because other people have them and if any one every deployed them, it would be apocalypse.
Really wish people would just fully disarm and agree that nukes are bad like we have with napalm/mustard gas and other such weapons with the geneva convention. (of course that's only if people fight while playing the rules...)
[–]transcis2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The nazis were also developing nuclear weapons and the Japanese were helping them. If their research efforts were not sabotaged and if they were luckier they could've beat Manhattan project.
The world trend is not disarmament but more governments getting nukes. It is a good thing they are still quite expensive. Can you imagine if every small island nation in the Pacific could field their own.
Without nuclear weapons, the internet would be completely different now. Remember that modern internet grew from Apranet which was specifically designed to withstand nuclear attack. The computers would be somewhat different as well, as supercomputer development was driven by the need to model nuclear reactions.
Christianity is not antiscience in general, but it is anti-certain branches of science that disrupt the society.
For example, there is now a general ban on human cloning which is accepted in all nominally Christian nations.
If there were a government ( like for example China) that pursued human cloning it could gain advantage in biological science over every government that enforced the ban. If the insights gained allowed them to develop disrupting technologies, christian nations would be at a disadvantage.
Forgot stem cell research which, can be harvested from other sources outside of fetus' but... yeah try to convince people of that.
[–]throwaway18472847273-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lol dude it’s just atheists going “i hAtE gOd I HAD TO READ THE BIBLE IN CATHOLIC SCHOOL” and making up absolutely silly arguments to disprove God.
[–]Ebenezer_Truth1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
true about anything
[–]butt_mucher4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Do you think the Bible is the literal word of God?
[–]Ben_Eszes3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Religion definitely is used for control. The founders know it's a bunch of BS so what else would they have to gain from it? Power, social influence, and control. It's also useful for establishing a tribe mentality and getting people to the point that they're willing to sacrifice themselves in battle for this being in the sky. Religion itself isn't evil, but it's pretty much been made up by people wanting to exploit the masses. Think of Catholicism and how a ton of people were illiterate at the time.
[–]brohan5560 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Or....OR humans, desperate for an explanation on where we came from and why we're here, came up with the idea of God and all the different religions are different versions on what we think said god wants from us. I'm more likely to believe that than just another youtube-esque conspiracy
[–]Ben_Eszes0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Are you serious? "YouTube conspiracy?" It's basic human psychology at this point. Sure, maybe Buddhism is the kind of religion that you are thinking of, but the major pantheism and monotheism religions were all used to influence the public. There might be exceptions, but religion is a great control device which has been demonstrated for a long time, particularly upon the lower class individuals of a society.
I think this quote is nice: "What else would you call an organization which takes children who are too young to be able to discriminate between fact and fiction, and indoctrinates them with stories about invisible men in the sky who look after them, and that there’s an invisible place called heaven where they’ll go to live in peace and harmony for eternity, once again meeting dead loved ones, after they die?"
[–]Will87_fghs3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
In what context does having 2 bears maul several children because they made fun of a bald guy make sense to you?
[–]BlackPrideWorldWide 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Maybe they were gonna grow up to be male feminists :)~
[–]Will87_fghs1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lol. I would give you gold if it didn’t go straight to 🇨🇳Яeddit🇨🇳.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
C o r r e c t
[–]Joseph_Memestar1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well, I am planning on becoming a scholar of comparative religious studies and I haven't read the entire bible myself. Anyone who says they have are spouting bullshit
[–]Joseph_Memestar1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, I'm a Muslim for your information and I'm still in my teens. Reading even 9/10 of it without anyone forcing me to do it is a great achievement in itself m8. While I've never seen even a single person among you lot who even read it let alone understand
[–]PlantsAreAliveToo1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah the bible condones slavery. miss me with that "out of context" bullshit
[–]butters0911 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
"In the ordinary moral universe, the good will do the best they can, the worst will do the worst they can, but if you want to make good people do wicked things, you'll need religion" - Christopher Hitchens
Much like Hitch I would argue the problem is faith itself, not a few bad actors
[–]kubicas0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes yes yes you take out what you need out of the book and think for yourself. No need to outsource your power.
AVE SATANA 🤘🤘🤘
https://youtu.be/9SlvB2Z-_C4
[–]Londonnj0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh yes it certaimly promoted peace, love, joy patience and kindness in 1096-1099 when it was used as the justificatipn for invading a foreign land and slaughtering its natives. And again in 1145-1149, then a third time 1189-1192. As was it the Burma Buddhists who practiced human sacrifice by burying people alive in the name of religion. Then let us not forget the Thugee murders, which were again sacrifices in the name of religion, upwards of 20,000 murders a year, And in fact is the origin of the term thug. These were deemed holy folk. How about the mountain meadows massacre in which 120 men, women and children were captured and executed? The spanish Inquisition? Salem witch trails? The roman execution of christians? Aztec, mayan and other south american instances of human sacrifice? The current catholic child pedophilia ring? In fact I don't think you can without a reasonable doubt argue one purely good thing religion has produced for mankind.
[–]hucisco0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If not then what do you KNOW it's used for? Consider this I have read about 13% of it with care. I don't think ( key word ) I need to read the entire thing to choose a path. You my friend feel threatened by the uncertainty of what you have chosen to believe ,as I once did. Go ahead and embrace your believes, with out them what are we.
[–]brohan5560 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't feel threatened at all. If I let a bunch of random people on the internet sway my beliefs I wouldn't be a Christian in the first place. I think the arrogance of the common atheist makes him wrestle with not having an answer and he cant stand the thought of someone else being at peace with their beliefs.
[–]sweaney0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it was made as a guide for humanity but still got a lot of things wrong.
Yeah, because if not for all the churches feeding the homeless, offering free counseling, building houses in Haiti, etc, you'd totally be out there on your own making the world a better place right?
[–]PMmepicsofyourtits13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Watch what happens whenever someone religious doesn't act how the left wants them too. Suddenly, socialist Jesus appears and tells the person how unchristian they're being, even though that argument wouldn't work on them at all.
[–]defenderofdeen8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No it’s not, it actually makes you not care about all of the useless nonsense we’re surrounded with today, which is actually a strength
[+][deleted] 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Garek1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Lol everyone is religious, so long as you define religion differently than everyone else. There's a huge difference between trust and faith.
[–]some1thing10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But it's really not an easy tool because oftentimes is random ass backwards quotes and takes from edge lord atheists (heretics) who think they're a better Christian by not being one than the Christians so it simply comes off as insulting and stupid while they sniff their own farts. Religion makes it very hard to exploit you and makes you face uncomfortable truths of reality.
[–]CeleritySteam5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nah, they read the part about Adam cucking and take that as an instruction manual instead of reading the part about Eve subverting and taking that as a warning.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (86 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 33 points34 points35 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
True. Most people who are against said religion basically google the bad versus and then read some of those and then basically site them without actually understanding it to try and win an argument. The Old Testament is one of those things that’s full of crazy sounding shit that only makes a decent amount of sense if you’re a serious biblical study. That’s why people like the Jews study the stuff from the time they’re born. Unfortunately the mainstream believers don’t even read and understand most of the New Testament let alone the old.
[–]Oxidus9994 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
True. Anti-religion atheists (putting emphasis on anti-religion) like to pick out single verses like the one about burning witches and using it as a proof that christianity is wrong. Bitch, did you see any Christian nowadays burning anyone?
[–]PlantsAreAliveToo4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The problem with your argument is that existence of even ONE bad verse puts the infallibility of the god you believe in into question
[–]Oxidus9990 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It seems you have trouble understanding that the Bible wasn't written by the God.
Doesn't have to be. People are following it and god knows it. He could issue a correction anytime he wishes so. That's if he exists at all though
[–]kubicas-2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Fuck Jesus the deceiver and such a submissive loser. My background was catholic and holy fuck it makes men simps and delusional.
I like to think for myself!
🖕🐑🤘
AVE SATANA !!!
lol
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Please see a therapist.
[–]kubicas0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Oh you damn poor christians... take everything so seriously. I pity you. Your hebrew boy died for nothing.
Btw. enjoyed the masterpiece song!?
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Did I say I was christian? I didn’t say that to defend any religion, I said it bc you’re so obviously radical against something/something you don’t believe exist. You come off very intense in how much you care about this subject, nobody even said they personally were believers or defending religion. We were poking fun at the meme for how ironic and irrational their statement is. But you come in here all hot and bothered trying to kick people.
Didn’t listen to the song.
[–]kubicas-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Maybe I come off as hot cause I'm an ex christian and it brought misery to my life in the past but now I just poke those hypocrites and make fun of them especially with that music LOL and you should listen to it!
ITS WICKED AWESOME!
[+]9-BBN-10 points-9 points-8 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why are you not jewish then? It seems they have it all figured out.
[–]TheLastMgtow8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is no religion that is more gynocentric than Judaism. Only after, you have Christianity, and only after you have Islam.
[–]CeleritySteam29 points30 points31 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
No, reading it in its entirety made me an atheist because it was incoherent and contradictory, you could not possibly do everything in it yet if you didn't hell = set up for failure.
That and the being of absolute good was regularly shown doing evil.
Patrolling thots would require reading, understanding, and enforcing it and that won't happen.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]kubicas10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Woo woo we bad atheists thinking for themselves are going to hell... omg help meee!
Thats one of the reasons I despise christianity for their installation of fear, guilt and shame in ppl minds.
Redemption? Fuck Jesus and his death for us. He redempted himself by his own death.
God is silent. Where is gods love and mercy for suffering? God is authoritarian and wants everything for himself. He abandoned his angels and humans... I will never bend my knee to any god. Its a delusion. I appreciate the symbolic side of it all cause I became enlightened through symbol of the light bearer 🤘
[+][deleted] 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Mechs20022 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
I just started reading the bible and I think it is great. The thing about the bible is that people don't see the stories...they see the prayers, and the scripture, and specific quotes of people. The bible is almost historical, and it tells the stories of many different people on an almost intimate level. It's not from what they say or do that you are supposed to learn from. You are supposed to learn who they are, and what became of them in the end. That is the magic of the religions.
[–]Garek0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Almost all biblical scholars believe most everyone in the bible was fictional. The only one that has a case for historicity is Jesus but even that isn't 100%
[–]Great-Pyrenees1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In fact most "Contradictions" I hear people mention are typically variations between the Old Law and the New Law. Which are not contradictions but differences in the standard being applied to a people. Which should not surprise people as our law of the land changes all the time.
Also your on point! Justification happened in the past with Yeshua on the Cross paying the price for us at our worst before we were even born.
[–]CeleritySteam-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's ok goy, just worship us and we won't torture you for all eternity! Clown World, but 2,000 years in advance.
[–]Great-Pyrenees0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hi Fellow MGTOW Supporter
I 100% appreciate your points of view and you are of course entitled to them. I would like to ask what you mean by "Do everything in it"?
Because we do not have to follow any of the antediluvian laws, we do not have to follow any of the Patriarchal laws, we do not have to follow the Old Covenant (The Old Law) and we have to be careful how we apply the New Covenant. Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But I believe "Following" the NT is as simple as this:
1) Believe in God, Believe that Yeshua (Jesus) was the Messiah the cornerstone of the new Covenant Church. Then follow the path of salvation laid out in the scriptures (Normally some combination of Hear, Believe, Repent, Obey, Confess, get Baptized & Walk a new life).
2) Love God with everything we have. Love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Read the Bible and write it on our hearts. Pray to God drawing closer to him as he draws closer to us. Become useful tools to God so we can do his will on this earth and lay up for ourselves eternal treasure in the next eternal life.
Messiah tells us:
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
So I am not sure what contradictions and difficult tasks you see in it we are being asked to do that would lead one to become further from God than when they first read it?
[–]JamesFannin-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Lol. Then how come casting out demons works? How come people get healed by God?
I’ve seen it happen with my own eyes, but Jesus said to doubting Thomas, “blessed are those who have not seen me and yet have believed.” - John 20:29
This is what makes atheism cringey. The proof is there, the atheists real reason is because they don’t want to follow the rules. For example, no more pumping and dumping, no more masterbating, etc...not saying Christians don’t do that but they are to repent and turn from that sin. Those that habitually do it do not inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:20 [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without EXCUSE
Atheism is the “religion” of the communists. An agnostic can be respected but an atheist just thinks of himself as all knowing.
All I can say is you had better look into it more because to actually think there is no God is extremely disturbing. And I say all that to be helpful not bashing you brother.
[–]CeleritySteam4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ok christcuck. If you point in any direction right now you will find a demon, by your definition of the word. Cast one out, just one.
Or for the brainlets let's make it a little more explicit.
"Lo, he who does not hang on Celerity's word shall be slain, and the slaying shall be by stoning!"
Oh look now that it's on writing it must be true right?
[–]JamesFannin3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Christcuck? I’m not catholic.
[–]Fawnnah0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
God said he created everyone in his image, that just tells me he's the most vile evil thing to ever exist but also the most forgiving and purist person. Basically god is satan and vice Versa, depending on how you live your life you'll end up on his shit list or nice list IE Christians forcing circumcision, BS marriage, and bluepill BS on their sons. All Christians will inadvertently go to "hell" anyway since birth is considered sinful lol.
[–]Alpha_CyPha22 points23 points24 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Atheists don't oppose Christianity and other ideologies because of what it preaches; they oppose these ideologies because a belief system based on faith and not any proof whatsoever is moronic.
[–]1111222231389 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. I don't oppose the bible because I disagree with its moral teachings, I disagree with it because it's claimed to explain the nature and cause of the universe and life when there's zero reason to believe that that's true.
It doesn't matter how nice you are; if your ideology is wrong, it's wrong.
[–]1111222231380 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree.
[–]Ben_Eszes2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you for the answer I was waiting to see.
[–]Psycholephant1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Religion is the ultimate blue pill
[–]Yashugan008 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
there's more than one way to become an atheist ...
[–]thecodeman016 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'd argue the opposite.
I was very involved in the church for 18 years. I only ever got taught the cherry picked stories and pastor messages.
Only when I took an apologetics course that forced me to actually read through large portions of the Bible with the original Hebrew translations and study the cotext did I realize it was a bunch of crap.
I think most people just stick with what they're born into. Fellow atheists I meet are the ones that dared to actually read the book instead of blindly accepting what they grew up with.
Would you say Moses receiving 2 different sets of 10 commandments (from a supposedly-all knowing perfect God who makes no mistakes) is even known by most Christians? I've had Christians get visibly angry that I would dare to lie about the Bible like that, but they shut up real quick when I make them open their Bible to Exodus. The 2nd telling of Judas dying (the one that contradicts the first version heavily) is also strangely omitted in church.
[–]JamesFannin3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That’s a little misleading there. First of all Moses destroyed the first set when he threw them down as the people created the golden calf. The second set was placed in the ark of the covenant. Also, technically there are way more then the 10 commandments. God gave 613 commandments to Moses. Just because one thing isn’t listed on the “10” doesn’t mean it’s fine to do. The 2nd example you give isn’t even a contradiction. The reason Judas’ death was written differently is because it was written by two different authors in two different books. Those were from the viewpoint and perspectives of two separate people. Surely you don’t think that it’s impossible for Judas to have hung himself & also have had his insides fall out of him? That’s very possible if he hung himself and later on he fell after death and his decaying body did this. Or that this happened if someone removed him from the tree. That’s not a contradiction.
[–]thecodeman011 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not trying to deny that it says Moses broke them. It's just a little bit out of character for this god guy after making them that a few days later suddenly several commandments aren't important enough to be on the 10, replaced with some very odd new ones. Of course he gave many more commandments but these were supposed to be the 10 most important ones, set in stone to guide your life, oh wait nevermind let's edit most of them to be something completely different.
As for Judas it is a contradiction to any unbiased reader. Read them both again:
Matthew 27:3 "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
Version 1: money was thrown back and used by pharisees suicide
Version 2: money was used by Judas accidental death
Please demonstrate how the flood story wasn't plagiarised from the Epic of Gilgamesh (which actually borrowed from an earlier work, which itself borrowed from earlier works). This plagiarism has been well covered by assyriology or you can just read the section of the Epic of Gilgamesh that's strikingly similar.
Ask any archeologist or geologist if there is any evidence of a global flood. Or just ask any biologist how fitting that many animals on a boat that size with all their proper diets and food (remember no refrigerators) would be possible.
The evolution of satan to Satan. שָּׂטָן (satan) is a generic noun in hebrew meaning "accuser" or "adversary". If you read the Bible in chronological order you can see the evolution of this term from being used to describe the force that killed the Jews in Egypt without blood on their doors to the talking donkey story where it is used directly to describe the angel. Culminating much later as a cast out angel named Satan. It's pretty obvious this character developed over time and wasn't a central character from the start. Modern Christianity has made the serpant in Genesis to be interpreted as Satan but this isn't present or hinted at in the original text.
Or the descriptions of the earth with the firmament. Hint: it's describing a flat Earth with a layer of water over it (sky is blue).
Maybe God could have included some mathematical constants, predicted a long list of natural disasters, or made some bold claims at the time like the Earth is round or detail germs, but no this massive book doesn't have any definitive proof like that for whatever reason.
To any unbiased reader, 1 or 2 or 3 problems that can be explained away with crazy mental gymnastics might be ok, but 100s of problems like this is pretty obvious. Goodluck selling it to a non-religious adult who isn't extremely desperate (or in the middle east under threat of death).
I don't blame you for still clinging to Christianity. I was in your position for a couple years as I left. Eventually though I couldn't deny the contradictions I saw any longer and I feel much freer and better now for it. I encourage you to take an unbiased look into Christianity (especially working with someone who is fluent in Hebrew) and all religions, after all if one of them is true then it will hold up to severe scrutiny. Also know that you're a product of where you grew up and probably didn't win the correct religion lottery.
[–]Uruke5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand how reading the bible can simply convert you from atheism. Religion is based on faith not words in a book.
[–]9-BBN4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[...] women would become property again, as in Moses' day.
See, comments like these is what makes people mistake MGTOWs for incels or other misogynist hate groups. I never have the desire to take advantage or possession of a woman who's minding her own business. I go my own way to prevent them doing this to me. I dare say you did not understand the MGTOW philosophy.
[–]BlackPrideWorldWide 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't like the idea of women becoming slaves, either. Incels often meme about "government issued girlfriends", and while most of them just say it to troll the lurkers, there are others who really want that. And those guys are fucking idiots. How can you expect a happy marriage with someone who is stuck with you against her will? Those kids would end up getting murdered in their sleep!
[–]transcis2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
In early days of the Roman Catholic Church, reading the bible was considered a sign of heresy if done by laymen.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]NoCharism2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
im pretty sure that the catholic church is the whore of babylon described in revelation 17
[–]Sad_Larry0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Protestantism is Christianity for people with low T
[–]HelloItsMev11 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Reading the bible is the best way to become an atheist , also most atheists have read the Bible it's the christians that haven't
[–]M33RHARIS1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Can confirm, have read the bible and the Quran twice. Yeah right so a God and all his crazy miracles happened 3000 ago when there were no cameras, but then the God just disappears and never shows up again but hey you’re suppose to believe him because it said so 3000 years ago.
Universe is too vast for it to be created just for humans, there are trillions of other planets, and billions of billions other such as earth, any knowledgeable scientist that has an idea about the actual size of the universe would agree that life existing outside of earth is very likely.
As someone raised a brainwashed muslim in a very religious muslim country, I can tell you that most religious people just live in their own world, even if the guy who wrote the quran or bible came back and told them that its all false, they still won’t believe it, they don’t listen or read anything that disapproves their beliefs, instead they only look at things that reaffirm their believes.
Source- I was one of those people.
[–]throwaway18472847273-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I’ve read the entire Bible and your Quran. I’ve even read about 50 chapters of one of the Hadith. I’ll admit I quit because it was the most boring shit I’ve ever read in my entire life. I’ve read the Bible multiple times though. I’ll have to say, I have the same knowledge you do, but have come to a completely different conclusion.
You said the universe is so vast. In the Bible it is mentioned the vastness of the stars and sky, and how broad and huge everything is compared to us humans. Why is it, that Jewish people could come to the conclusion that God created it all, knowing the same information you do? The only difference between us and them is we know exactly how far away the stars are, and how vast it really is. But they knew it was vast nonetheless. People before us were by no means stupid. But my question is, what does vastness have to do with God existing? I never understood the link between the two. Whether the universe is billions of miles wide, I don’t see how that has anything to do with if God created it all.
At best that would cast doubt into your heart as a Muslim, but I don’t see how that would rationally make you become an Atheist. Also, why not an agnostic? Even in my worst times as a Christian I cannot even try to be an atheist, only an agnostic. I try hard to think of an argument against the existence of God, but I can’t think of one that is at all logical. And even if I dismissed all of the arguments FOR God’s existence, I would only be able to say, “well I don’t know if God exists, there is no proof for him, but also no proof against him, I do not know”.
Also I can tell you don’t really know what you are talking about. You said “the guy who wrote the Bible”. You do realize, the Bible is not one book, it’s a collection of 66 different, little books, with different authors. Don’t answer the question I already know you didn’t know that.
At the end you finished with a broad generalization, Christians only look at things that reaffirm their beliefs. Yeah dude, a lot of Christians are fucking retards. Even more, in the end times some Christians will probably go to hell for the rest of time. Some Christians probably do look at things they believe in and only that. Not me, I want to know if God exists or not. I just want to know. I so far think God must exist simply be necessity, I don’t think any of us or the universe could exist without God.
Some atheists are very educated. Cosmic Skeptic, on YouTube, makes good attempts at coming up with rational arguments against the idea of God. Other atheists don’t know anything, and don’t believe in God because they don’t understand what the Bible is. I’m not calling names here, but it’s simply unfair to say “you believe in a magical skyman with a beard and a stick in the sky whOOOwhoOOO”.
[–]Grant14120 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm an atheist and I read the bible cover to cover. It was a lot of years ago now, maybe close to 20. I remember thinking at the time, that it was sort of like the Silmarillion. Somewhat of an older style than that obviously, but it wasn't a bad book.
I distinctly remember Jehovah had a tendency to be pretty indiscriminate in his wrath, much like when the Valar in the Silmarillion sunk Numenor, killing all the men, women and children who lived there.
It's like seeing a civic city as a lost cause and dropping a nuke on it. Could a different, more discriminant method be used? Perhaps. Some would say most certainly. Others would say absolutely not and to even try would be dangerous and reckless and would probably end up causing more collateral suffering.
But Jehovah wasn't a nation with only the choices to either send in troops, carpet bomb or drop nukes. In the bible he was stated as being omnipotent. Yet, he was a character who, a couple of times, seemed to become blind with rage and mindlessly wipe out everything and everyone.
I'm not trying to suggest anything here btw, this is literally just a random couple of thoughts I had about the Bible story, which in general I found an alright read (if a little disjointed here and there) that was pretty thought provoking.
Editing to say that the reason why I read the Bible was that a couple of my freinds were Christian and I felt at the time that I had sometimes inadvertently been a "bad influence" on them whilst haging out with them. We'd have a good time and I liked them, so when they'd mention that they had done or said something which they felt was taboo for them in the spur of the moment while hanging out, well I was kind of the leader in our social group and felt responsible. So I learned a little about their relion and visited their Church a few times. I did the Church visiting with full disclosure to everybody that I was an athiest just trying to be a better freind, I didn't want to disapoint their parents or anybody there if they thought I might convert or something, so I made sure they understood that was never going to happen. It worked out well at the time.
But the point is, I didn't read the Bible to gain intel to use against anybody. Just wanted to clarify that.
[–]I_love_bearss0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What in the actual fuck is in that book that would convert someone into Christianity?
[+]TheLastMgtow-6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
Bro i think its the contrary. The bible had plenty of examples of passivity. I think the bible allows women to be whores, because it always forgives and turns the other cheek. " He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. "
I kid you not. I think if Christianity got it right, islam would never been created.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (29 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheLastMgtow-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link
Jesus didnt say that there was no evidence, he clearly said to forgive her. Its a very bad precedent, and maybe the reason why islam prevailed later. There is weakness in christianity, and cuckoldry. No man should be a christian in his right mind.
[–]krenovinspired11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
As with most who don't bother to read or understand the entire context of this oft misquoted scripture, you miss the overall lesson of what Jesus was teaching. The following scriptures show his intent as he tells the woman to "go and sin no more". The lesson is about hypocrisy, not about what the woman had done.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
The following scriptures show his intent as he tells the woman to "go and sin no more".
I only see hipocrisy here. For the word of God it should have been more exemplar and more clear. Because of that many believed forgiving whores and turning the other cheek was ok. And then islam was adopted by half of the men in the world. Winning?
[–]krenovinspired1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Most see what they want to see. There are other lessons contained in this encounter. Nowhere in the scripture does Jesus say she must be forgiven het sins by those there. Only that death by Jewish law is done. The message here is that forgiveness (Grace) is granted by God through Jesus and his sacrifice. Also, buy telling her to "go and sin no more", he is also declaring that grace may be freely given, but only through any earnest effort to change (repent).
[–]TheLastMgtow1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Nowhere in the scripture does Jesus say she must be forgiven het sins by those there.
But they dont say the contrary either. So they left it at that. For the word of God i think it leaves a great deal to be desired.
Too ambiguous, too permissive, too passive.
The message here is that forgiveness (Grace) is granted by God through Jesus and his sacrifice.
Thanks Christianity, you are the main reason why Islam appeared out of nowhere in the 7th century and annexed half of the world in 20 years. You cant annex half of the world in 20 years, without your ideology being embraced by men as a liberation from whatever cancer was taking place before.
Also, buy telling her to "go and sin no more", he is also declaring that grace may be freely given, but only through any earnest effort to change (repent).
Lmao. No that is the epitome of a slap on the wrist. Something the Arabs would never let go. Because they know if they do. All the others will just do the same. Terrible precendent. No wonder why the west is so cucked, the western men opening borders to migrants is nothing but an unnatural neochristian thing. You wonder why the west is falling a part. Look at the rotten root of its culture, christianity.
[–]krenovinspired0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
You do understand that Islam is a political system first, and a religion second, right? And for all of Islam's control of women, you do understand they will kill you and I just as quickly as they would the whore of Babylon, right? You do understand that Islam, like communism and socialism, is less about Allah, and mostly about world domination politically and economically, right?
The problem with your thesis about Christianity and its teachings is the same problem most who wish to denigrate it have: They pick and choose, taking out of context, certain lessons and parables in an effort to fit their agenda. Western society is cucked today because of laziness resultant from affluence; the whole "hard times make for hard men, good times make for soft men" adage. The technology you use to disparage Christianity is, in large part, only available because of Christian beliefs. You might notice that the main number of adherents to Islam still live in mud huts.
But you do you.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I understand all what you said, and i mostly agree. Im not a muslim. But i dont like emotional perspectives on this topic. So if islam treats better their men, as opposed to western society. Then if thats a fact, i have to admit it.
You do understand that Islam, like communism and socialism, is less about Allah, and mostly about world domination politically and economically, right?
The same thing you are saying about people misinterpretation of christianity applies to islam in that context. Islam was very benevolent to men at certain times. It would not possible for islam to conquer half of the world in 20 years, if men didn't accept it of their own free will as a liberation. The core beliefs of islam is war against tyranny, regardless of the situation, even if it leads to the implosion of the whole society. Like it or not, feminism does not survive islam.
You might notice that the main number of adherents to Islam still live in mud huts.
The wonders of feminism do not justify their means. I could say the same of medieval christians in comparison to golden age islam. If you are willing to be a slave and have no dignity as a man yet you live in comfort and security than you do you. I rather live in a mud, have my ak47, and eat simple food, no tobacco, no alcohol, and no pork, than selling my soul for some gadgets and hedonism, and other shiny things. The argument that muslims live in muds, gives them more strenght, because they are winning a war even with less equipment and less of everything, speaks volumes.
[–]krenovinspired1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But i dont like emotional perspectives on this topic.
My perspective is not emotional. It is historical.
So if islam treats better their men, as opposed to western society. Then if thats a fact, i have to admit it.
If you are not a muslim, then you will get treated no better than women by islamic fundamentalists, which are the only muslims who actually adhere to Sharia Law. In fact, they will treat you worse; separating you from your head, or you become a 2nd class man if you convert.
The same thing you are saying about people misinterpretation of christianity applies to islam in that context ... It would not possible for islam to conquer half of the world in 20 years, if men didn't accept it of their own free will as a liberation.
See my above paragraph. Adhere or die. That's a bit of motivation to be sure.
The core beliefs of islam is war against tyranny, regardless of the situation, even if it leads to the implosion of the whole society.
Islam IS tyranny. It is no different than any other totalitarian ideology. The main difference between the tyranny of Islam, and the tyranny in ancient times of Christianity is that Christian priests had to manufacture the tyranny by forbidding the masses from actually reading the words. For Islam, the tyranny is right in their text.
If you are willing to be a slave and have no dignity as a man yet you live in comfort and security than you do you.
Who said I choose to live as a slave to anyone? Because I see exactly what Islam truly is, regardless of what Islam says about women, I am now a slave? Wrong. Christianity says much of the same thing in the texts. It is not the bible which is wrong, it is the men (and now women) who have twisted it to their uses. The difference is Christianity, as a belief based on the text of the bible, gives me CHOICE as to whether I adhere or not. Islam does not, for fundamental (dare I say evangelical) adherents.
The argument that muslims live in muds, gives them more strenght, because they are winning a war even with less equipment and less of everything, speaks volumes.
They only win because the west has no will to take them out. The west took them out in the 11th and 12th centuries and could do it again, if they had the will. Much quicker, I might add. I don't disagree the west has become soft, and will probably fall. The west has forgotten what it means to wage all out war. War will visit the west regardless of its failure of memory. It is not the fault of true Christian teachings; it is the fault of affluence from freedom which has bred apathy.
You glorify an ideology which only chooses to convert, enslave, or kill those who do not believe as they do.
I appreciate the civil, if spirited, responses. It is sometimes difficult to have civil discussions on these topics.
[–]TheLastMgtow1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Im aware of that. The point is that muslims dont really care who you are or what you do so long as you follow sharia. So you can very easily pretend to be a muslim. Unless you cant live without alcohol, tobacco and pork. Since i dont consume any of those things, then perhaps im more muslim than many selfproclaimed muslims.
No. Thats the crusaders and others. Islam has three options to all conquered peoples:
1- Convert. 2- Pay a tax. 3- Die.
They started as very few men, and as they went from a small city in Arabia, to Egypt, and the middle east, and then Iberia, men in general adopted islam after the infidel occupying militaries were kicked out. For the men of the people, It was superior to the way they were being treated by those occupying empires. Especially in the area between the Byzantine and the Persian Empire. These men were tired of hypocrisy and corruption. And sure islam is violent, but you would be ignoring historical evidence, as i said, no empire conquered the world in 20 years forcefully, not even Alexander, he needed the natives by his side, and he had them, some more loyal than Macedonians. And they followed him, because he rewarded his men. See? Its not hard to see why islam will win the war against the west. Because men in the west are not valued. But islam puts the warrior, man, above all.
Islam IS tyranny. It is no different than any other totalitarian ideology.
Islam might be backwards and many other things. But tyranny its something it is not. It is made in such a way, that turns men into time bombs, and society into a powder keg, IF it is under tyranny. Islam was made to destroy tyranny at all costs. Its like Chemeotherapy of tyranny, it kills it, but it will also get your society back to stone age.
The main difference between the tyranny of Islam, and the tyranny in ancient times of Christianity is that Christian priests had to manufacture the tyranny by forbidding the masses from actually reading the words. For Islam, the tyranny is right in their text.
Well. For feminists mgtow is tyranny. Of course you will say islam is Tyranny. You could give some examples. Islam gave rights to men, and made women live in a safer society, in the desert. Its undeniable. The only problem is that, it has that desert mentality, for survival. The islamic scripture is only oppressive to those who oppose it, and to those who want women "liberated", and so on. But thats about it. I may agree with you, if you put a little bit more effort in this. So dont feel discouraged.
Christianity says much of the same thing in the texts. It is not the bible which is wrong, it is the men (and now women) who have twisted it to their uses. The difference is Christianity, as a belief based on the text of the bible, gives me CHOICE as to whether I adhere or not. Islam does not, for fundamental (dare I say evangelical) adherents.
More or less. Christianity in its pure form is also strict. I had a debate with a fellow christian mgtow a few days ago here. And i was saying exactly that. That christianity gives too much of a choice, and its too ambiguous, turn the other cheek, passive, enabling. And he proved me wrong. Actually, from the scripture, God hates sinners, and women are supposed to be silent and obey men, and put to death in case of adultery. Modern christianity is different, and your illusion that christianity is that liberal hippy thing, is wrong. Christianity was very strict. Islam is the successor of christianity, inspired in it and in Judaism. You would not have islam without the failure of its two predecessors.
In my perspective, if you want me to be honest. Instead of playing devils advocate for islam. Is that all religions are coping mechanisms for unnatural conditions that humans create in societies. But thats my personal opinion. And you can say that you know islam is tyrannic, but you have to provide backup to your arguments. Which im very familiar with what you are going to says. Try to keep it rational.
In the end, islam values men more than the western societies, and thats why their men are willing to die fighting with barely no arms and no resources. And thats why they win battles at severe disadvantage. In the end, if you are under islam, that family you create belongs to you and thats a right that you have as a muslim that is protected by the very real threat of violence. So this is just one of the things that prevent tyranny, in a supposed islamic society, that we are yet to see in modern times.
The choice you have of eating pork and drinking beer, is all you have right now. The real freedoms you do not have. You have just replacements and distractions. Addictions. The freedoms that you have, exist to actually enslave, no more. Not all freedoms are good. Its a buzzword used to win political arguments. "FREEDOM". There is freedom of, and freedom FROM. The freedom of the west, is the freedom to destroy and cuck yourself. Empires will fight to give certain freedoms to women and the young to enslave them, and misdirect them, under the banner of freedom. But freedom from addiction and poison, imposed in harsh manner can also be a type of freedom. The chinese fought a war to free themselves from the foreign imposed "freedom to consume opium", the west wanted asians to have the freedom to consume it. But the chinese wanted that freedom to be forbiden. You have learned something today. Freedom is not always freedom. Sometimes freedom is slavery. And sometimes restrain is actually freedom. The mgtows know this very well, afterall they are sick of so much female garbage, and worship that we have to deal with on a daily basis, but its freedom. Just imagine if you actually got the freedom of getting rid of that, what would stop you?
Your hate for islam, is fear. Fear of losing your society, your nation, your race. You probably think islam is racist and will kill white men. When there are entire white countries that are muslim. My critics of islam are entirely rational, i know what is wrong with it. But in comparison, since nothing is perfect. In comparison islam is now better for men than the west. Unless you are too addicted to women, and secretly appreciate feminism, and you deep inside want things this way. Which is fine, for all i care, you do you.
They only win because the west has no will to take them out.
Have you even put 10 seconds thinking about this? Why cant we take them out? Think man. Use your brain. Learn from your enemy. The only time the west kicked muslims out, was in Iberia, and they did it because Iberian Christian kingdoms were fully militarized, fully patriachal, with a military doctrine equal in everything to the muslims. If i took you to medieval Iberia you could not differentiate between christian lands and muslim lands, and thats why the christians won, because they became more muslim than the muslims themselves. So be smart, and be humble, and learn with your enemy, and maybe you can win.
The west took them out in the 11th and 12th centuries and could do it again, if they had the will. Much quicker, I might add.
No man. It took them 7 centuries to kick them out. They did kick them out, but at that point most of the population in the country already spoke a different language heavily influenced by arabic. It took the arabs 10 years to conquer the peninsula. It took 7 centuries to take it back. And when they finally got it backed they looked quite similar to arabs in culture. Winning?
I don't disagree the west has become soft, and will probably fall. The west has forgotten what it means to wage all out war.
Yes brother. And if it must fall, fall it must. And you and i should not be afraid of that. Perhaps we should even wish it fell quickly so we were on time to build something on top of its ashes to save what yet we know, but a society where men have their rights once again.
We did not forget how to wage war. Every man in the west would love to fight, if there was actually something to fight for. The same for the late Romans. Even their emperors refused to arm their citizens, and hired foreign Foderati, because they knew the native men would turn arms against their tyrants. In the west we have nothing to fight for. Because we would be fighting men from patriarchal cultures, that actually have it better than us on that area. But we have comfort, and materialism, and thats why the western men are drowned in panem et circensis.
No war is fought and won on the front line. You need a nation or a God, that men are willing to fight for. And that god or that idea must be fair to them. Must reward them. Otherwise they will be mercenaries. And mercenary armies are weak, because they are paid by money, and money can only buy, what a society can give. The muslims dont fight for money, let that sink in. Even if you were a great soldier, and rewarded with medals, you would realize something is off, when your or your brothers in arms wives, is cheating at home, and that is perfectly OK, while you are fighting men abroad that are actually dying for what they believe in and what works for them.
Continuing next...
2nd part:
Im not gloryfying. Im simply stating facts. You can be angry at the facts. In your blue world, you think you can have justice without strenght and harshness you are very deluded. Even mgtow involves killing a part of you. Islam is the way it is, because everything else did not work, and ended exactly the way the west is ending right now. I use to hate islam too, just like you. I use to be a christian, im an atheist now. But the cognitive dissonance was too much, and i realized islam was created for a reason. Im still not a muslim. But in the present context it is not my responsability to fight them. And i know i will be well treated under islam, because there is basically no difference between me and a muslim, the only difference is that i dont need a family.
Thanks man. Dont feel discouraged. If you have good arguments that prove me wrong. Go ahead. Im here to be proven wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpddCx2Ek14
Just found this guy on youtube. I didnt watch with much attention. But, he seemed to make more sense than you. As you know im a mgtow, im not a muslim. But you need to get off your high horse, and be rational.
Lol. Pot meet kettle.
You do you.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheLastMgtow1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
No you are the one that must say where does he say he was just trying to fight kangaroo courts and trial without evidence, which is total bullshit, and came from your imagination. Christianity forgives whores, always did. Remember we are all sinners, and you must forgive. Nonsense. Be a good cuck be a good christian. Even if christianity wasnt this way at some point, it clearly is to weak to stand on his two feet agains the clown world as you can see today.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link
Thanks dude. I didnt know. I thought he just whiteknighted for her. And at the time this story was told to me, i was a boy. So all the idea i got and pretty much everyone there, was the one i told you. Which to be honest at the time seemed the right thing to do, because i didnt want anybody stoned, none of us wanted that. And so when Jesus saved that woman from a stoning i always thought of it as a good deed. And thats exactly how it was explained to us by the church. And this were very studied people in religion.
Your explanation makes sense rationally. But not in a religious way. Jesus as the son of God, would not need to use deception, as it seems he used according to your description, to escape death or the judgement of the Romans, especially because he himself knew and let the romans crucify him. So this doesnt make much sense, at least from the perspective of the Christians, that Jesus was the son of God and performed miracles and so on.
"your sins are forgiven", but were instead a rebuke: "Go, and sin no more."
That is still a very neutral stance against her behavior. Very passive in my opinion. And that opens up the whole dillema of christianity that is ambiguous in regards to sinners. Sinners are forgiven so long as they confess. Hence why it is so weak and permissive, because in the end everyone is sinning and will sin back again. It sets that precedent, that women can cheat anyways. There isnt even a specific punishment for that in the bible. Why would men stand for that or that society if in the end it is so ambiguous.
Dont get me wrong, a lot of things i like about christianity. And i truly think it was almost like a mgtow thing of its era. But history proves it failed men, because women did not respect christianity or christians. Although i think christianity started as a mgtow movement in the middle of the decadent roman empire, they quickly became cucks of the system, eternal masochists and nice guys.
A true religion should actively fight evil and tyranny, not expect God to do everything, while you have to turn the other cheek, but sinners are forgiven, and in the afterlife some might pay for their sins but at the same time God always forgives. Damn. You need to be insane to believe that, or to even believe that will work for men or a society.
The bible should have been clear in regards to adultery in that case. Jesus should not have said, the very passive "Go, and sin no more", like the typical slap on the wrist women take nowadays at the true kangaroo courts. What can i say man. Im sorry, but thats a terrible precedent and a terrible example. Instead it should have been made clear what was wrong and what was right, and what was the punishment, here or after. Oh but we are expected to believe without seeing, and we are expected to let God solve everything, etc..etc.. Christianity is cognitive dissonance mess. And we would never have Islam today, if it wasnt for christianity messing up so bad.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
There was little else He could say: He knew her sin, and she knew that He knew, but that He could not legally condemn her.
And thats ok to not legally condemn her. In the scripture something should have said specifically about that right in that context. And what about the punishment? I mean, words are empty man, women dont respect the laws of christianity because of that. I mean they only need to pretend on the surface that they are moral. But then they can do whatever they want anyways. Because God forgives, and even if it does not forgive, he only punishes in the afterlife, Women only respect consequences right in the moment, and with their fish memory, not even Islam sometimes is enough.
Right now, God is giving people the chance to stop doing evil, to repent, and to do what is right instead. But at Jesus' second Advent, that chance will be gone
This sounds a lot like what they say in Islam that the second messiah is Muhammad, because he brought the sword.
Also what do you think about islam?
It seems quite more effective than christianity in certain aspects, tbh.
This is a often ignored in the modern church, where, for example, a single mother can "find Jesus" and then go hunting in a church for a chump to marry her, with the blessing of that church
See, and how could Christianity prevent that. If anything Christianity enables that a lot. At least in a society that is not dogmatic, men will simply follow their instincts and their guts, and will not marry women, and society will simply burn. Not only that. Christianity seems to create the perfect atmosphere for women to land betas, but at the same time be able to still cuck them, while they not only will never know, but they cant even chase other women, because its way harder and much more noticeable when a man cheats.
Half of the arabs were Christians and some others were Jews. When they came up with islam they picked on a lot of Christianity and Judaism, and maybe that is why they realized the solution was the hijab, and the sword and punishments. I know it is barbaric man. But what we tried before did not work. One only needs to look at the decadent Byzantine Empire, to see that christianity is an utopia, while islam is like the final conclusion that even with the harshest laws, women will still mess around.
I would like to know what are your thoughts on this?
But this is a problem with the modern church, and the travesty which passes for "Christianity" these days --- not with the Bible. The Bible is very clear about sin, and how to deal with it. The problem is that people --- churches and professing "Christians" included --- reject what the Bible says.
I dont think it is very clear man. And even in its most harsh version with the implementation of the inquisition, it simply killed and tortured a lot of innocent men, or went after men that were not submissive to women and the church and the state. Can things not go sour at least once? They tortured men because they were ignorant of the scripture, think about that.
Wrong: the Biblical punishment for a woman's adultery is death. God commanded that adulteresses --- and adulterers --- be put to death. It has to be done legally, and with due process, but adultery is a capital crime.
Leviticus 20:10. I googled it. Thanks man. But that is only when they are married. Which is fine i guess.
The reality is that were God's Law applied to modern society, it would wipe out most of the women.
I think i would be too. I cheated on my ex-girlfriends. And was very permiscuous in my early days. I had a Christian education, but saw it for what it was, and i quickly tried to adapt the world around me. My hormones were too crazy. All the women i was with did not value christian behavior on the contrary, and they seemed to enjoy the drama of being with an unstabble man who gives no preference to them. This among many other experiences i have with women and society, made me conclude that for Christianity to even work, it must be applied to the letter to everyone, and that will make it look a lot like islam in fact. I like that Paul told the Christians that a Christian man does not need to marry and in fact will be his best self as a mgtow, i admire Paul for that. And of course the example of Christ that he did not marry or have kids. So there are good and positive messages in Christianity, but for survival today, one must not be a Christian. Although you comment made me have a little more respect for Christians, at least if they were at the same level of Christianity as you, which 99% are not.
then only one in four women would survive, and men would outnumber women by roughly four to one.
It sounds like we would have a war.
The problem is that men do not want to follow the Bible because they want to be able to sin themselves.
That was my position when i was a young man. I knew it felt wrong, but at the same time, i knew that not having done it, maybe i could regret not doing it later. Its no coincidence, a lot of selfproclaimed church men are huge perverts, that then double down because of their past restraint.
I will keep my mind open. And listen. But for now. I think Mgtow is superior to Christianity and accomplishes more on a personal level, and perhaps it will also on a global level, maybe it will take down society, but even in the bible it is written that Sodom and Gomorrah must burn.
Thanks man. Keep going your own way.
[–]wutc1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, one of my best friends is a Muslim, and he has no trouble with his wife --- she is modest, kindly and she obeys him. ...She would put most modern "Christian" wives to shame.
As I said, Islam's stance on women is much closer to the Biblical position than that of modern "Christianity".
islam is like the final conclusion that even with the harshest laws, women will still mess around. I would like to know what are your thoughts on this?
islam is like the final conclusion that even with the harshest laws, women will still mess around.
Even with the harshest laws against murder, there will still be murderers. But at least they will be punished, and justice done. Likewise, laws punishing female sin are necessary for two reasons: primarily they are there to punish women who do evil, but their secondary use is pour encourager les autres --- to deter any others who are thinking of doing the same.
Under modern secular laws, women get away with murder --- literally. That is the complete opposite of God's Law in Scripture.
I dont think it is very clear man.
But that's because you haven't read the whole Bible --- you're going on the cherry-picked passages you've heard quoted by modern so-called "Christians", rather than getting to grips with what God actually says.
Unfortunately, most "Christians" have never read through the Bible, either. ...And even those who have done so tend to ignore the "difficult" bits that they don't like --- the parts about stoning adulteresses etc..
And even in its most harsh version with the implementation of the inquisition, it simply killed and tortured a lot of innocent men, or went after men that were not submissive to women and the church and the state. Can things not go sour at least once? They tortured men because they were ignorant of the scripture, think about that.
The torturers were the ones who were ignorant of the Scripture. The Church of Rome is a false church, and has been since it was created. It is the ancient Roman state religion masquerading in the fleece of the sheep it slaughtered. It makes idols of its goddess ("The Blessed Virgin Mary") and kneels before them. This is in direct violation of the First Commandment God gave to Israel.
The Church of Rome has robbed, tortured and murdered untold numbers of Christians, Muslims and Jews. It is not of God and Jesus Christ would certainly disown it.
Perhaps I ought to explain how the Bible views the sexes and marriage, since so few people understand what the Bible says on these matters.
To begin at the beginning, man was created in God's image. Woman was then created from man, for man.
God said man was to rule over woman.
Biblically speaking, woman are the property of men. A woman is owned by her father until she is sold to her husband, at which point she then becomes his property. This owner-property relationship means a man may have more than one wife, but a woman may have only one husband.
In God's eyes, sex implies commitment. If a man has sex with a virgin, then God expects that man to then stay with her --- they are man and wife in God's eyes. It is immaterial whether the sex was consensual or not: irrespective of whether he took her virginity with her consent or simply by forcing her, he is obliged to then take her as his wife, and to protect and provide for her. He can acquire further wives in this way, but he must care for them all.
Adultery in God's Law is the specific crime where a man has sex with another man's wife. God commands both parties to be put to death for this. However, if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman, then this simply means that he has acquired another wife.
This sounds strange to modern ears, but it is easy to understand when one realises that God views crimes such as adultery and rape as property crimes, where women are property and men are owners. Hence adultery and rape are punished by death only if a man defiles another man's wife. If the woman is single, then the man must simply take her as his own wife, regardless of whether he already has a wife.
As I said before, the Bible is an extremely patriarchal book, and it is full of red pills about female nature, many of which are embodied in these laws which seem, to modern sensibilities, terribly harsh to women. But if one understands female nature and the dynamics between the sexes, these laws make perfect sense.
Unfortunately, Christian men no more want to swallow red pills than non-Christian men do.
I think i would be too. I cheated on my ex-girlfriends. And was very permiscuous in my early days.
...Well, that's the Gospel: you can still receive forgiveness, even for these sins, but only by truly repenting and turning your life over to Christ. Most people don't want to do that. They want Heaven but not holiness. Unfortunately Christians don't help in this regard, because they give people false assurances of God's love.
The problem with the church today is that they run around telling unrepentant sinners "Jesus loves you", when Jesus might very well hate them. Nowhere in Scripture do you find the Apostles going around and telling unbelievers that Jesus loves them --- even Jesus Himself never did this! It is a sign of how weak and watered-down Western Christianity has become and it's shameful.
God is first and foremost righteous. That means that He hates wickedness. And that He'll throw the wicked into Hell. Yet He is also merciful. ...But only to those who truly repent and acknowledge Him as their Lord, demonstrating their sincerity by a changed life. And so these young women who are in church on Sunday and spreading their legs for different men every Saturday night might deceive men but do not deceive God --- they are ultimately deceiving themselves, and Scripture says they will burn in Hell.
I like that Paul told the Christians that a Christian man does not need to marry and in fact will be his best self as a mgtow, i admire Paul for that.
Paul is often denounced as "misogynist" (many of the great men of God are now denounced as "misogynist"). Paul did not permit a woman to have authority over a man. He did not permit women to teach. He taught that women must be silent in church. And the list goes on...
And of course the example of Christ that he did not marry or have kids.
Exactly. And when He explained the realities of marriage to His disciples, they themselves observed that it is therefore better for a man not to marry. He replied by saying that few men can accept this.
And so it is: few men are able to live without a woman.
That was my position when i was a young man. I knew it felt wrong, but at the same time, i knew that not having done it, maybe i could regret not doing it later.
This is how women behave: you can read many articles in women's magazines which begin, "I love my husband, but..." and then they go on to explain how they feel they're missing out on sexual experiences with other men (or women), and fret that they'll regret not having tried these things. It is a slippery slope. (And of course, a woman who is seriously contemplating such things does not really love her husband.)
I will keep my mind open. And listen.
Good. I hope that I've given you some food for thought, anyway.
even in the bible it is written that Sodom and Gomorrah must burn.
And burn it will...
No worries. I wish you well.
Wouldnt this case an epidemic of rapes coming from incels? Then those who want wives will simply go around raping?
Well, that's the Gospel: you can still receive forgiveness, even for these sins, but only by truly repenting and turning your life over to Christ. Most people don't want to do that. They want Heaven but not holiness.
For me to honestly repent i have to understand that under the context it was the wrong thing to do. Which i dont think man, honestly. Because i could not commit to those women, and i could not marry them even if i wanted to. At the same time, pretty much everyone around me was doing similar. I cant be the only christian in completely atheistic society, that would be masochism or suicide. Not that i didnt try as young man, and it did not work. You become a walking joke. And i think a lot of men know that, this kind of behavior is kind of wrong, but men will do what they can under the circumstances, so they quickly adapt. Its not like they would not want to be good, its just that they do what they can. Hard to explain.
Sorry i have to go now. I will reply to the rest of your comment when i get back.
Maybe; maybe not. It certainly didn't in Biblical times. What it did do was to ensure that fathers kept their daughters under close watch, and that women did not engage in the risky behaviour that is so common these days.
Men were wiser about female nature back then than they are today. The sexes were segregated and marriages were arranged: a father decided whether or not his daughter would marry. Today, women do what they want and it's a complete disaster for everyone, including for women themselves.
For me to honestly repent i have to understand that under the context it was the wrong thing to do. Which i dont think man, honestly.
Everyone thinks their sin is fine --- particularly in this wicked age. Immoral women think exactly the same, as the Bible says...
This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth, And says, "I have done no wrong" (Proverbs 30:20)
Humans are ingenious in justifying their own actions. But it's not a question of what we think: we're not God. It's what God thinks that counts. As Scripture says...
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart.
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
Because i could not commit to those women, and i could not marry them even if i wanted to.
...In which case, you should not have been having sex with them, as I'm sure you know already, at some level. God never intended sex to be without commitment. Sex without commitment is termed πορνεια ("porneia", usually translated "fornication") and will land a person in the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8).
At the same time, pretty much everyone around me was doing similar.
You didn't have a mind of your own?
I cant be the only christian in completely atheistic society,
You wouldn't be the only Christian! There are still many believers, even in today's godless and wicked world.
that would be masochism or suicide.
It would be a rebellion against evil.
And it would demand integrity.
Not that i didnt try as young man, and it did not work. You become a walking joke.
Yes, you do.
I remember when I was at university --- long before I became a Christian --- that the Christians there were laughed at for abstaining from sex. The truth was that they had more courage than any of us, as they were standing out from the herd, and enduring what we ourselves could not endure. They were stronger than we were.
When I think back to how I was, and what students were like generally, the "cool" students regarded themselves as rebels, but were really just mindless conformists, buying into a trendy, immoral lifestyle which had been devised for them by secular social engineers. I realise now that it was not us, but that little band of Christians who were the real rebels.
And i think a lot of men know that, this kind of behavior is kind of wrong, but men will do what they can under the circumstances, so they quickly adapt. Its not like they would not want to be good, its just that they do what they can. Hard to explain.
It's women's thinking, too. They want to think of themselves as being "good", but they don't actually want to make the sacrifice to be good, particularly if doing so gets in the way of their carnal pleasures.
I remember what it's like: after all, I was once there, myself. But we have a choice of whether we stay there or whether we repent and switch sides. We will pay a price in this life if we choose God over the world, but we will pay a far greater price in the next if we don't.
What it did do was to ensure that fathers kept their daughters under close watch,
Although this might start well, it will result in an epidemic of whiteknighting all over society. We have been there before. Whiteknighting now is getting less common, because a lot of men are waking up. But men used to get lynched based on the word of a woman.
Today, women do what they want and it's a complete disaster for everyone, including for women themselves.
Absolutely man.
I think it comes down to what TFM says. Its a hard solution, but its the only solution. Take women rights away.
Everyone thinks their sin is fine --- particularly in this wicked age. Immoral women think exactly the same, as the Bible says... This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth, And says, "I have done no wrong"
Well in society, sometimes things need to get worse before they get good. If you know what i mean. God says we are all sinners and we will eventually sin. God also says that the end of times will come. And that society ultimately goes through cycles and collapses and rises again.
Im sorry man. I think what you say is good and well intentioned but i cant. I support you and everyone who thinks this way. I also understand muslims. But i cant be the only one doing what you describe, or at least i could not in the past. Im not excusing myself, but unless i wanted to be a martyr then i would follow christianity or islam to the letter and i would end dead. I know this to be true because i tried it to a certain extent even before puberty and i was ostracized. So i dont think that helps anything. And im not referring solely to the fact you will be restraining yourself sexually but when it comes to not taking advantage of a corrupt society for your own benefit, its a question of being a predator or a prey. Yes i cant also agree with being an honest men when everyone and even the system is utterly dishonest, thats just painting a target in your head. This is what i think it is very weak and selfvictimizing in christianity.
But today of course it is easy. I can live my mgtow life. And i consider it as christian as it gets. I respect and regained my empathy for other men, whereas in the past i use to fight. In my opinion mgtow is superior to christianity and it is in fact a more rational and natural approach. But christianity was necessity for the context where it emerged, just like islam. So i will not be a christian by myself, trying to go against the world alone, when even the church itself is poisoned, and nobody is a christian anymore, and especially because having 10% of the population as a true christians which was probably never the case, but now, it would only be counterproductive.
You have to understand, using your words, Gods plans. Sometimes you need to throw more wood into the fire. Mgtow would never be a thing without what caused and forced men to open their eyes. And thats undeniable. Without the experiment of PUA, and other similar reports from systematic and direct experience with women, lots of literature we would never have the redpill. We would instead have islam or christianity protecting us in a bubble dogmatically, so most of us would never really know the truth directly. And that is of course very dangerous and thats what allows society to degenerate, because men are following rulings but they are not sure of it, because they have not seen the other picture.
Absolutely. They were man. And yet what changed the picture was not them, but mgtow. They have been here for a 2000 years. And islam for 1600. Its time to not be afraid, and try something new. Mgtow can defeat feminism and create a better world.
Well yes. Thats social engineering. I always thought after my rejection of christianity but before mgtow existed, years ago, i was the only one thinking that way. And the truth is there were other men thinking that way in the premgtow era, but they also thought they were the only ones. So i always thought, even if i go mgtow (not a word at the time), and focus on myself instead of being around these women and these social snake groups, i will be the only one. So it was pointless. And precisely because there was no internet. I swear to you i would just become a reclusive outcast at severe disadvantage to others. Its the internet and mgtow that saved us, not christianity. Christianity and islam failed us, and doesnt give a damn about men, but its everything to provide a stable society, that ultimately its women and the family that benefits, not the free man. Call him a barbarian, or a sinner, but thats how i see it. Im sorry man.
They want to think of themselves as being "good", but they don't actually want to make the sacrifice to be good, particularly if doing so gets in the way of their carnal pleasures.
They cant be good. Their nature is to be ruthless to acquire more and more so they have more and more for themselves and their offspring. Thats what it is. Religion is anti-nature. And its a coping mechanism for an artificial civilization imposed on nature. Whereas mgtow is way more natural, the fact men could always leave for greener pastures is well within our dna. And thats what ultimately can solve the problem, if it does not, well at least it will save men individually.
Well, it sounds as though your mind is made up, so I won't go on.
I hope, though, that at least some of what I've written has given you food for thought. As I say, God gives us freewill and compels no-one, so the choice is yours in the end.
Hope you make the right one...
You are a true christian. Thanks man.
Continue:
Exactly. Jesus loves you. Saying that so much almost like vulgarizes it.
But only to those who truly repent and acknowledge Him as their Lord, demonstrating their sincerity by a changed life.
Ok. But how can you change your life in this mess? This is very disconnected from the reality of average man. Is he supposed to live like a complete outcast or die like the martyrs in a colosseum while everyone is cheering? Arent we supposed to fight actively before that? Like the muslims do, it is commanded to them to fight tyranny actively.
Maybe after that, it would be more realistic to follow those christian values. Until then it seems a lot like a lost cause. But again christianity is against war and you must turn the other cheek.
Ok. But how can you change your life in this mess?
You can't without God's help. But first you have to acknowledge your sin to God and ask His forgiveness and His help in turning your life around.
Jesus said that unless a man is "born again", he cannot even see the Kingdom of God. This is a work which God Himself does, when one is accepted by Him --- He will open your eyes and give you a completely new view of the world, and will give you new desires, and these will guide you in the right direction.
The problem is that most men and women don't want it --- they don't want to be "one of those weirdos", because it might mean losing friends or forfeiting certain things. But if you really want to know God, and are therefore prepared to make these sacrifices, then He will receive you.
However, He doesn't want lukewarm so-called believers who just want a bit of divine fire insurance.
He sees right through that: one can't pull the wool over God's eyes.
This is very disconnected from the reality of average man.
This is because the average man and this evil world is disconnected from God. It is necessary for a man to disengage from this world in order to engage with God.
Is he supposed to live like a complete outcast or die like the martyrs in a colosseum while everyone is cheering?
Maybe. Jesus told His followers to expect persecution: the world hated Him, and so it will hate His followers.
It takes courage to follow Jesus in a godless world, and men don't have that courage. But God can give us that courage, if we choose Him and His way over the world's way.
Arent we supposed to fight actively before that? Like the muslims do, it is commanded to them to fight tyranny actively.
In Muslim thought, jihad is primarily an internal struggle against sin. Yes, some Muslims interpret it as a licence to go and kill kafirun "infidels" (non-Muslims), but the majority of Muslims do not.
The problem is that one cannot kill righteously without first being righteous oneself. Murderers can't execute murderers righteously, as they're murderers, too. Fornicators can't go out and justifiably kill other fornicators. That would be gross hypocrisy and a travesty of justice.
And this was why, when the Jews were expecting their Messiah to go and fight the Romans and deliver them from Roman rule, Jesus instead attacked the Jews for their own wickedness, and fought against the corrupt Jewish religious authorities of the day. He didn't attack Roman rule, because Roman rule was part of God's judgement on Israel for its sin. Of course, eventually Rome paid for its own decadence, and down it went. God is no respecter of persons.
Regarding the nature of our fight, the Bible tells us that Christians are soldiers in a war. ...A war which is not between people on earth, but which instead is raging in the heavenly realm. The earth is merely the physical theatre of this conflict. Yes, the war might break out into visible physical violence, but primarily it is an information war: a war over Truth. A war for minds.
And so, for example, in your case, yes, God could send a Christian to hack off your head for being a fornicator.
...Or God could send a Christian to try to open your eyes and make you see that you've been deceived by Satan into believing fornication is fine and that God is just a miserable killjoy. God always prefers to save people from following Satan rather than simply killing them. ...But if they insist on following evil, then God will ultimately destroy them.
Finally, I think I should underline the point that this life is a test. The vast majority of people don't realise that, and spend their lives trying to make their time on earth as comfortable and fun as possible. Such behaviour is absurd, when one thinks about it: it's like entering the final exam at university only to spend the entire time fidgeting and fluffing up the cushions on one's seat, eating and drinking, combing one's hair and amusing oneself by doodling on the test paper.
When Jesus was asked by His disciples whether many would be saved, He replied:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."
The vast majority of people are on the road to Hell.
They love this life, and think nothing of the next life. But each of us has a choice: we can indulge ourselves in this life and pay in the next, or we deny ourselves here, and receive eternal life with God.
I'll leave you with Jesus' words.
“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done."
I cant respect this, because i have seen too much passivity from christians and the western society inspired on christianity. I cant man. And that is why i can relate more to muslims than christians at this point. At least muslims blow it all up. Christians wont do anything man.
Man this is not true. Thats what the media wants muslims to be. Islam is based on the sword, in jihad. And its a pilar of islam. Saying it is internal and so on, its part of the Taqya doctrine, to win the war. Jihad is basically what Muhammad did his whole life. I cant buy into anything that says the contrary. There may be a internal jihad, but the external is the true jihad. And thats how they purge evil from the world, by systemically destroying society if it goes astray, even if it ends in the stone age. Islam is to this day the only thing proven to erradicate feminism, but it also destroys the whole society in the process.
And this was why, when the Jews were expecting their Messiah to go and fight the Romans and deliver them from Roman rule, Jesus instead attacked the Jews for their own wickedness, and fought against the corrupt Jewish religious authorities of the day.
Nice. I like your rational observations of Jesus. Or perhaps Jesus was a mgtow figure and he knew very well that the Roman system feeds on the blood and competition of men. It was not the original patriarchal Roman republic that was strong. It was very bureaucratic and corrupt system. You need men to go their own way for it to collapse. Or else civil wars and more hate and bloodshed between men will only help the system last more time. Christianity was at that time a mix of guerrilla fighting and civil disobedience. They won the war in the colosseums of Rome and by not engaging in the Roman economical system, "To Caesar whats Caesar".
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But the problem i see in islam. Is that a lot of muslims have a dogmatic knowledge about women. Kind of, they are protected by their own religion from female nature. They dont seem to understand or even visualize female nature, they only have religion to keep their head burried in the sand. That is why they seem so redpilled but also so clouded in their judgement and easily become whiteknights too.
Judaism is the most gynocentric religion of all three. And that is because he turns the jewish woman into the most valuable thing on earth. You can convert to judaism, for you to become a jew you must marry a Jewish woman and she must have your child, then your child is a Jew. So they worship and force everyone to worship the jewish womb. Its very bad.
I believe Mgtow will accomplish more than what these religions did, and at the same time let men be men.
[–]letsgobish2931 points32 points33 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
i posted something similar on fox news fb page about how there shouldn't be women judges and all the 'christians' attacked me
[–]NathanHollister17 points18 points19 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
If the church actually taught the parts of the Bible that tell women to behave, they could have prevented feminism. But the modern church is cucked.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]NathanHollister5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The church could be a voice against the decline in culture, but they are too cucked to do anything.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for your insight. The christianity-related subreddits on this shithole of a website are crap.
[–]Why_should_I_mayne0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Could I ask what denomination you are?
[–]Uesugi19892 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Modern church is a business, who make angry half of your potential customers?
[–]NathanHollister2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's the problem. Many churches aren't about teaching God's word, it's about making money.
[–]Ebenezer_Truth0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Joel Osteen...yeah i said it . He is a con man and a general POS
[+][deleted] 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
[removed]
[–]fat_lesbians_lul1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
reddit admins*
[–]silakto3391 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
isn't it a sub related issue? I didn't think reddit admins used to get involved. what am i missing?
[–]fat_lesbians_lul3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
reddit admins havw unlimited access and can post,edit,delete at their sole discretion while impersonating any reddit username
[–]silakto3391 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
can, but do they?
[–]fat_lesbians_lul1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
idk about mgtow, but on subs like the donald and other "controversial" subs, yes they do
[–]silakto339-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
omfg. where do i know to get more about this (seriously)? r/conspiracy (sarcastic)?
[–]Frankly_George4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Have you tried searching?
Reddit’s CEO edited comments that criticized him
Reddit CEO admits he secretly edited comments from Donald Trump supporters
Unhappy with his online critics, Reddit CEO altered site’s comments
Reddit CEO Caught Secretly Editing User Comments, Chatlogs Leaked
TIFU by editing some comments and creating an unnecessary controversy.
Those are from a variety of sources and include the announcement where spez apologies and admits to having done so. If they could do it once and have admitted to doing so then what's to stop them from having done it again and again or multiple times before that?
With that one post the entire site has lost its credibility. How can you prove that spez didn't edit someone's post? How can you prove that a user actually posted something claimed to have been posted? You can't.
[–]fat_lesbians_lul1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
well you wont see any posts about it really, for obvious reasons. dunno where but subs occasionally post complaints that reddit admins impersonate mods and delete shit
[–]silakto3390 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the most heart felt thank you. goodbye.
[–]darmy71313 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The only acceptable use of the Bible right there... sorry, but my first biggest red pill was the ridiculousness of the major religions, and folks selling invisible products.
[–]kjax22884 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hey, snake oil is visible
[–]l-lincoln13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You don't get to believe the lies that make you feel good. Gods? Magic? Romantic Love? Make believe is make believe. It's frustrating to see so many men who claim to be MGTOW still clinging to religion. Religion is not the only way to have a moral code. Christians are some of the worst apologists for women. "...yes original sin, but God wants us to marry and multiply..."
[–]JamesFannin6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Just remember Jesus rejects 5/7 of the churches at the end. So don’t categorize false Christians in the Christian category. At least in the USA, practically everyone is a “Christian” these days. This is simply untrue, they are that way because it’s most convenient but as soon as persecution kicks in the tide will change.
[–]l-lincoln1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're part of a world I have left behind.
[–]AtomicaBombica0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Jesus rejects"
Exactly my thoughts. I'm firmly in the "live and let live" mindset, but I still avoid bible-thumping loonies whenever possible.
[–]NoCharism12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
wow this was really stupid..
[–]OilHaulerND8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
None of the above know what a Biblical Christian is, or how to even understand the Bible. Christianity is not a Burger King, smorgasbord, repeat-after-me, "my way" means to do anything.
That Bible version is a long way from the original meaning. Stick with the original. Or stay just a tool.
[–]walkswithabigL9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Is this becoming an atheism sub now? She wasnt teaching anyone she was stating her opinion.
[–]wenjune1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women aren't allowed to have opinions in this sub, don't you know?
[–]thekidsnotmine8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This thread sucks
[–]WIT_MY_WOES6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The comment by Deo Marte is absolutely retarded and sounds like a snarky copypasta quip that atheists have saved in their notes, ready for regurgitation. Dumb post.
[–]immedithangcho7 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Holy shit,you just fucking killed her
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Atheists are the biggest cancer though. Prime example of pseudo-intellectuals with 90-105 IQ, just like their logically unrealiable worldview.
[–]JamesFannin1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Correct. And we wonder why communism is coming to the west? It’s all due to atheism growing. It’s the state religion of China.
“Communism begins where atheism begins” - Karl Marx
“We communists are atheists” - Zhou Enlai
“Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government for any other.” - John Adams
[–]liquorbaron4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
People nowadays pick and choose what they want to follow in Christianity because they all want to go to heaven but they don't want to have to put in the hard work of actually not sinning and being a good person, amongst other things. It's like seeing female pornstars wearing a cross necklace.
Modern Christianity became a "have it your way" fast food religion. Far too watered down to be useful and society suffers cause of it.
[–]JamesFannin2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well said brother!
[–]Nago314 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Funny but not going your own way.
[–]RelentlessNature2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm pretty sure every major religion spit on women at some point. Says a lot.
[–]throwaway184728472732 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I’ve read the entire Bible and am a Christian.
[–]JamesFannin2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It’s just militant-atheist propaganda.
[–]throwaway184728472731 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why does this have 1.3k upvotes? Are there really that many people on here who can seriously look at the universe and believe the Big Bang caused itself, or that the insane complexity of human life developed without any intelligence behind it? I’ve tried even in my darkness moments to rationalize a reason why God couldnt exist, why God doesn’t exist, because I hated God for not helping me, but I could not think of a good reason truly why God does not exist.
[–]Dwight3469 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Christianity just gained +5 points in my book.
[–]Sod_Off_Shotgun1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
As an atheist, I hate overly preachy religious types, but holy fuck do I hate other atheists more
[–]zAnklee2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
See I have always seen religion as a cult. I've hated every church I've been to. Jesus cares about the relationship with you, not whether you say you're a christian. Just as long as you love him and claim his as your savior then you're saved. He knows your heart and whether you truly mean it or not. The bible is just a book of guidelines, you're not going to hell for eating bacon or whatever. Besides, after all these years with all these different versions of the bible I'm just going to trust Jesus and be the best I can, I hope you all do the same brothers.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's a big step between "believing" in the bible and "practicing" it teachings. Also, most of it is just gnosticism.
[–]badaboomxx1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is what I think about it. After all, there are so many things that you cannot apply as a moral ground today.
[–]NickTesla20181 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Zing!
[–]Master_Om1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
awesome reply....
[–]Joroda1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I could never be an atheist after having watched Dr. Weith and Kent Hovind use real science to utterly obliterate the theory of evolution with zero reprieve and then going back and reading some of the great works from saints like Thomas Aquinas which completely destroy even the faintest of doubts that there is a designer behind this amazing intricate thing we call life. Some cling to atheism because it justifies the harm they do to others and "might makes right" but what you'll find out is that a truly strong man is civilized and kind in his heart as God truly is the might that makes him right.
[–]JamesFannin4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Absolutely. Also when you witness a healing in real life or demons casted out of someone it’s like woah there’s actually people out there who don’t believe and are headed straight for hell if they don’t wake up.
The truth is everyone knows there is a creator they just don’t want to follow the rules.
[–]Mgtowindia0[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Brother AMEN. long live our god.
[–]213546416546840 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm not saying there isn't a God, because I don't think God and evolution are mutually exclusive, but since this is MGTOW, and I saw a post about this a few days ago, here's my question. If not for evolution, how do certain things come to be, like STDs that are immune to any and all antibiotics that we can throw at them?
[–]Joroda0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This comes down to what they call "micro-evolution" which is really just the ability to adapt to changing circumstances within limits, like moths that gradually adapt over generations, etc.
[–]Joroda-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nice Ad Hominem fallacy! Must've felt nice? Got any real arguments?
[–]cannacorn1191 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Atheists be like "damn she got owned." Christians be like "they are both entitled to their own opinion. God bless them both." Which side do you want to be on
[–]former_farmer1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The fuck has this to do with MGTOW?
[–]somber_smiles1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dank
I’ve never ever ever read an Atheist coming up with an argument proving God does not exist. Only trying to disprove Christian ideas, or break down arguments FOR God’s existence, but never an argument proving God does not exist. The best shot at an argument against God was probably the Argument from Evil, but an insane amount of apologists have answered this question before me.
[–]veloci_1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wait does the man dissing the woman have more likes... damn we r taking over
[–]BrizzLatency1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Holy shit what did she say
Timothy 2:12 but non ironic
[–]Chakra_Devourer1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ahaha! Be silent woman!
[–]JIMBETHYNAME0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
BYE SOPHIA!!!!!
[–]Nerdskaralate0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When reading the bible we need to understand the context of ancient society and how things work in the past. From my personal experience God and his son's have saved my life and they make me a better person. So in my opinion bible make's you an atheist if you are ignorant about the time, society and context of the things. The book is not a simple book and require an effort that people doesn't make.
Sorry for gramar errors. English is not my native language
[–]Genericasianmale0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If these Christian girls actually read their bible instead of quoting John 3:16 they wouldn’t be religious anymore.
[–]AmbiguousObscurity0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Christianity is right about women.
[–]silent360 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If atheists would sit and listen to actual Christians about the “glitches in the matrix” we have seen with our own eyes their tunes would change. How many more out of body surgery stories do you guys need to hear? How many more spirit videos with actual audio do you need to see? This world isn’t as basic as you desperately want it to be. Bigger things are happening whether you are religious or not. When someone reveals they are atheist that tells me they have been abused into bitterness usually by fake religious or they are so arrogant about their own intelligence they’ve overlooked blatant evidence of intelligent design and intervention. There’s a reason they say “Life is stranger than fiction.”
[–]genesicforone0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Reading the bible like that makes one wonder why chiristians obsess on only jesus as the only prophet that matters.
The god of the bible is more or a guardian spirit who took many lifetimes though the bloodline to impart his teaching, sometimes struggling himself,to the people in the era.In some way, he meant well.
He seem to have taken his lessons form another culture that predated the bible,and transferred it to another part of the world(west,middle east)
[–]Robinzhil0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sophia has no fucking idea about the book her very beliefs are based on.
Like 99.999999% of all religious people.
[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Boooooom atheists rise up!
[–]Frankly_George1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Biblical support for MGTOW:
^^^^^^^^^^^<sup>.</sup>
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Matthew 19:9-11
I especially like the disciples' reaction and the fact that Jesus explains that this isn't for everyone. Let those who can receive it receive it--not all our friends are ever going to understand. This isn't for everybody. Sounds like a good thing though for those of us able to grab ahold of it.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a matter of Critical Thinking
[–]WolfUbuntu117-2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Holly shit someone from Fairy Tail rekt that bitch!! Long live Fairy Tail 👆👆
[–]fat_lesbians_lul7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
ironic
[–]Ebenezer_Truth-3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
me being uncivilized myself or using Gods name in vain as some would say? have you ever wanted retract AND double down at the same time?
[+]zappeur42-8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Pussy pass denied no?
[–]9-BBN9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In no way is she leveraging her pussy to win the argument. It's just a classical burn.
[+]GoOUbeatTexas-7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
r/pussypassdenied
[+]9-BBN-9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (69 children) | Copy Link
Has absolutely nothing to do with MGTOW. Why are there so many religious nutbags in this sub?
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (67 children) | Copy Link
Theres actually nothing crazy about religion, the idea of a higher power is common sense.
[–]9-BBN14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't fucking care what you believe as long as you don't try to impose it on other people. That doesn't change the fact that MGTOW is a secular movement. You disagree with the above statement, regardless who phrased it. This isn't based on women's nature or their unconscionability. As a reminder:
We are men going our own way by forging our own identities and paths to self-defined success; cutting through collective ideas of what a man is.
There's nothing more collectivistic than religion.
[–]M33RHARIS1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Preach brother, well put.
No but the religion in context was against women and he was shit talking for no reason. Thus I took the liberty to return the favor.
[–]RealBiggly12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (61 children) | Copy Link
the idea of a higher power is common sense.
Nopes.
[–]9-BBN1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The funny thing is that the same comment burning the woman is also shutting down her belief system. Here we have a bunch of confused replies of people who like to see her burn, but at the same time actually side with her religious views ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[–]novhaku-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Because seeing a burn is entertaining, no matter the gender or religion involved. You could argue that it has nothing to do with mgtow, but that's what people really care about, even the ones that couldn't give any less of a fuck about religion or the heavily religious ones. People just find it funny because she trapped herself and that's it, it could work with anything. I'm fairly sure most people here don't care about the overall subject more than that, although there will always be nutjobs trying to push their religion in everyone's face.
To be perfectly fair I don't think anyone here "side with her view" and that's the thing, what she likes is her own interpretation of religion where she keeps the "good" and throw away the "bad"; what isn't advantageous to her. Most religious people here will like what she'd consider the parts you should discard instead. At this point they're different belief systems.
[–]AlbertCohol-5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
Then where did everything come from?
[–]Alpha_CyPha8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The classic "I don't know therefore God" argument. Atheists don't claim to know where everything comes from: creationists do. Creationists can't support their argument that everything comes from a god because they don't have any evidence.
[–]silakto339-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
occam's razor is 700 years old and people still haven't caught on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
[–]RealBiggly3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Your momma?
On a more serious note, this is MGTOW and maybe not the ideal place for such a discussion.
But hey, you started it... See, you're arguing from ignorance, basically saying "It's impossible to say for sure, therefore my particular religion is true." However on that basis I can just as easily say that everything, the entire universe, was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM). You can't prove otherwise, and hey SOMETHING must have caused it, right? Therefore FSM.
Logic!
Except it's not, is it?
Of course if you're going to define your god as one that precedes all space and time, has various mystical properties that cannot possibly be understood and so on, the I have to ask, how come you seem so sure of these mystical and impossible to understand things?
Ultimately, let's be honest here, your parents told you.
So who told them?
Their parents, and priests and such. In other words, it's culture, not science, not evidence-based fact, just ideas and beliefs handed down over time and over generations. Often tweaked and updated to suit the times but just culture.
One way we know this is the simple fact that your religion, if any, is 99.9% correlated with your parent's religion. What a crazy fucking coincidence, huh?
Indian parents in India? You're a Hindu. Pakistan? You're a Muslim. Ireland? You're a Catholic or Protestant, but certain parts of America and you're probably a Mormon.
The world's 4,000 or so religions cannot, by definition, all be correct. It's plenty possible, and extremely likely, that all 4,000 are wrong.
Jus' sayin'.
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Lots of words but no substance. The question remains.
[–]RealBiggly0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
OK, a short answer, since that was apparently too much for you...
Nobody knows, including religious people.
Happy?
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Nobody knows, but anybody can deduce it. Does it come from nothing, or something?
[–]RealBiggly0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
You just end up following your own ass after awhile.
Let's say it comes from nothing...
"Oh but that's not possible, it must have come from something!"
OK then, it came from something.
"Aha! And that was GOD!!"
Where did God come from?
"Er... from nothing. GOD created everything!"
Can you grasp how stupid that sounds?
Besides, even if we give the process of creating everything from nothing the name 'god' or 'gad' or gid' or whatever, what difference would that make?
It wouldn't make any particular religion on this planet true, it wouldn't solve any mysteries and it wouldn't pay for a cup of coffee.
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You’re making a straw man. The simple fact is that since things exist as opposed to not existing, and something can’t come from nothing, then it must logically come from something eternal.
This eternal source itself didn’t come from anything; It was always there - that’s what eternal means.
What you choose to call it makes no difference, it was, it is and it will always be.
It is true that this fact in and of itself doesn’t make any particular religion true. However, what is the truth about this eternal source can be known through simple deductions.
That it wouldn’t solve any mysteries however is emphatically false. It would solve a whole bunch of mysteries. Including most obviously the mystery of our origin.
That it wouldn’t pay for a cup of coffee is also false, since it is the origin of both coffee, math, metals, and people.
The first thing we can deduce is that since the material, temporal universe exists rather than not, there needs to have been made a yes or no decision. And what do decisions require?
[–]RealBiggly1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Some glaring issues with your ejaculation:
'So what's holding up THAT turtle?'
"Oh you think you're clever, young man" she replied, "It's more turtles, turtles all the way down!"
I may have mangled the quotes a bit but you get the idea - your 'something eternal', by your own logic, must have been caused by something else eternal, else you have to accept the idea of something from nothing.
So which is it, something from nothing, or eternal things all the way down? And what, really, is the difference?
"it was, it is and it will always be." A whole HEAP of things were, but are not any more. On what basis do you presume any form of external eternal causation would still be around, billions of years later? That's like saying a bomb will be around forever, because it made a big bang...
I'll skip past the claim that something we know nothing about would somehow explain things (?)
How exactly does a cause require a "decision"? Sunlight causes plants to grow, because it does, not because the sun decided to or the plant decided to or the nearest tree decided to let some sun reach that plant or any other "decision". Stuff happens, especially things such as chemical reactions, with no mystical spiritual conscious beings making any decisions.
[–]AlbertCohol1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
your 'something eternal', by your own logic, must have been caused by something else eternal
Then it wouldn’t be eternal, now would it?
On what basis do you presume any form of external eternal causation would still be around, billions of years later?
You really have trouble wrapping your mind around eternity, don’t you? “Billions of years” is a temporal concept. Time doesn’t apply to eternity. Eternity doesn’t mean “lots of time”, it means the absence of time.
something we know nothing about would somehow explain things
If it explains the origin of the universe, it explains everything in the universe. How would it not? As for knowing about it, yes you can know about it, and since it could explain anything, why wouldn’t you want to know about it?
How exactly does a cause require a "decision"?
There is a yes or no decision to be made regarding instigating the universe. A decision requires a mind.
The alternative would be that it was some sort of law saying that if there is existence then a universe must start. But that only elevates the problem to an even higher plane, because who made such a law? Who made that decision?
How much of a Rube Goldberg machine do you feel it is necessary to have in order to explain away a mind? The more complexity you add, the more obvious it becomes that there needs to be an intelligent mind behind it all - a Someone.
And you underscore this by saying:
Stuff happens, especially things such as chemical reactions, with no mystical spiritual conscious beings making any decisions.
Chemical reactions happens because there are laws of nature, and laws are rules decided to be one way and not another, and decisions require minds. If there were no decision as to how chemicals react, how would chemistry work? Even if you would say “laws can appear without a lawgiver”, then the question is “why could they?” Only because there would be some kind of... law ...to make it so.
So the more complexity you add to your argument, the more you disprove it.
So you see, we can know things about the origin of the universe, all based on science and logic. We know it has a cause, we know the cause is immaterial and eternal in nature (because it is outside of space-time), and that it has a mind.
What does the massive amounts of energy present in the universe tell you about the cause?
That was beautiful, the most twisted, self-inflicted mind-fuck I've seen for ages!
Thanks for the convo but I think we're done here :)
Yeah, logic be one hell of a drug.
Have you tried some?
I just OD’d
That could explain your post...
I know, it’s watertight.
At the bottom of the ocean?
There is no real logic to say "shit happened, therefore a decision was made to make it happen".
Regressing and saying "For time and space to exist something caused it" does not, in itself, require any decision to cause it. Indeed one can say no mind existed to decide.
Bottom line, you're pleading from ignorance. "We don't know, therefore (my) god." is not logical, it's just desperation because there's nowhere else left for your gods to hide.
We've already been to the very top of Mount Olympus.
There's nothing there.
What’s the alternative?
“I dunno” isn’t an answer, it’s just a description of your mental state. The only other logical alternative is that there is some kind of mindless mechanism that determines whether a universe starts or not. But then you have to explain where that mechanism comes from, why it’s there, how it works, and so on. Just adding another step to an eternal Rube Goldberg machine.
Sooner or later the only explanation is a mind, so Occam’s razor says “sooner”.
[–]chronic_nervosa0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is an invalid question.
The universe, meaning the totality of existence, cannot be created. It is eternal, meaning outside of time. There are only 2 fundamental alternatives: existence and nonexistence. The mystics want you to believe that something outside of existence created everything that exists. I shouldn’t have to explain why this is nonsense.
The question you pose and those similar are simply a misunderstanding of concepts such as universe, time, creation, etc. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding in metaphysics that leads to nonsense like God and creationism.
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The universe, meaning the totality of existence, cannot be created.
You make the mistake of conflating “universe” and “existence”. The universe is not the totality of existence. The universe is temporal and finite. But everything that has a beginning has a cause, so the universe has a cause, and sooner or later the chain of causality can only lead you to the conclusion that there must be something eternal beyond the confines of time and space.
Or if you redefine the word “universe” as you do, then the universe has an eternal component from which the temporal component arose.
You say there’s existence and nonexistence, but the question why stuff exists rather than not is not one you can answer with a shrug. Not if you’re honest at least.
However you twist and turn it, you still can’t escape the inevitable reality of something eternal being the cause of what is temporal.
[–]chronic_nervosa0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I made an error now that I'm reading it back. The universe means: "the totality of exisTENTS". The total sum of everything that exists is the universe.
The universe, then, is eternal (non-temporal). Time, as a concept, is a measurement of motion between objects. I.e. a year is the measurement of the motion of the orbit of the earth around the sun. What, then, could you relate the totality of EVERYTHING to? Hence, why the universe is eternal (outside time).
As to why things exist, it's simply because they are what they are. Why does a dog bark, or a baby cry? Because that is their nature.
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So you just include the eternal first cause in your definition of the word Universe. Fair enough. It’s still there though, and “things exist simply because they are what they are” is a tautological non answer that just tries to avoid this inevitable conclusion.
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link
Oh ok, guess you are the highest power then.
Right.
[–]RealBiggly7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link
Prove I'm not? Besides, the Invisible and Undetectable Unicorn (IUU) standing behind you is my friend. Mess with me and he'll stab you up the ass with his invisible and undetectable horny bit.
Of course you wouldn't feel it. It's undetectable.
But you wouldn't want to be stabbed up the ass by a unicorn, wouldya? Of course you wouldn't. Glad we settled this then.
Carry on.
[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link
Oh nice argument. But just because you can't perceive something with the senses doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Empiricism is entirely limited in its ability to predict phenomenon and thus not the all-in-all. In fact, Godel's incompleteness theorem literally says that all theorems for predicting phenomenon must either be inconsistent or incomplete.
But go on, please show us your all-powerful energy.
Besides, the same people that don't believe in God also say that there is no experience after death, which is ALSO beyond empiricism and therefore just as much a unicorn.
[–]RealBiggly8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
just because you can't perceive something with the senses doesn't mean it doesn't exist
If something cannot be detected, what is the difference between it existing or not existing?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link
Can you detect consciousness? No, but we definitely know it exists.
[–]RealBiggly1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
Of course we can detect consciousness! There is a clear and obvious difference between a conscious and unconscious person or creature.
We can also detect from brainwaves, heartbeat and other measures, to see if they're faking it. Heck, we can use "brain fingerprinting" to detect if someone recognizes something they have seen before.
We have all kinds of ways of measuring consciousness.
You can argue that we struggle to define it, or understand it, but we can sure as hell detect it, and can easily snuff it out with drugs, bumps to the head or decapitation etc.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
You aren't detecting consciousness, you are detecting symptoms of consciousness.
As a metaphor, you are basically detecting the sneeze but cannot find the root cause of the sneeze.
Consciousness cannot be detected because it's not a measurable phenomenon. Consciousness IS the thing that measures.
Seer vs the seen. Perceiver vs the perceived. Consciousness vs matter.
OK, let's try again, since you're being awkward...
What's the difference between (symptoms) not being detectable, and not existing at all?
[–][deleted]1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not being awkward man, it's just a subtle topic that you aren't willing to sincerely understand.
Consciousness itself cannot be reduced to a chemical phenomenon. It expresses itself through this medium, but it is not defined by it.
Well it IS, because we can alter it via chemicals, which absolutely proves it is chemical and electrically based, see?
You can't alter consciousness, you can alter the experience that consciousness experiences. You are essentially changing the software/hardware of the computer, not the User itself. Subtle point.
you can alter the experience that consciousness experiences
OK, what's the difference between altering the experience that consciousness experiences and altering consciousness?
Seer vs seen. It's a simple (yet subtle) point.
There is the output on the screen and then there is the actual person looking at the screen. If you change what's on the screen, the person isnt changing.
No, answer the question. What is the difference?
I alter your consciousness with a drug.
What is the difference between that and your "seer" or "seen" or whatevertheheck being altered?
I am answering the questions you just dont understand the answer.
You are altering the "seen" not the seer in your example. Drugs alter our perception of the world, they dont alter the perceiver ditectly.
Sorry but that's like saying if you change the settings on a camera you're not altering the camera, only what the camera sees.
That doesn't makes sense.
You are ignoring the fact that the person using the camera is what consciousness represents not the camera.
Now you're just taking a step back - the camera IS the "seer", it's what's seeing, else we're just back to altering the camera user with drugs or whatever.
Again, answer the simple question - what is the difference?
A camera doesnt see bro. The person does.
So if I drug that person, or bean them on the head with a rock, what is the difference between that and altering their consciousness?
Drugs alter the senses and the mind, which is also not consciousness. Consciousness is the entity that experiences the senses and mind. Consciousness is literally the one thing that never changes. If it changes, it's not consciousness, it's the object of consciousness.
Oh jesus fucking Christ... OK, what is the difference between altering the mind and altering consciousness?
The difference?
Example A - we alter the mind
Example B - we alter the consciousness
Show me the difference?
Yeah consciousness is the awareness
Mind is the chatter that the awareness hears.
Please answer my question.
I gave you answer, now you try to understand. Otherwise, sorry I couldn't help you.
You're giving no answers at all, just slithering away and around like a slippery serpent.
Let us be honest here, you're trying to paint consciousness as the "soul", and as such you're desperately trying to avoid being pinned down as to what exactly you mean.
You just throw up some mystical barrier, claiming that A is not the same thing as A, it's actually B and that thing is A, but when I ask you to define the difference all you can say is "A and B aren't the same."
Define the difference or shut the fuck up.
Ah I see, you are against spirituality. No wonder you are acting like this. It's ok, you "win"
I'm not against something that doesn't exist. Show me it exists?
Sorry, spirituality isn't empirical. Your request makes no sense.
What's the difference between not being 'empirical' and not existing?
Empiricism is for something that can be detected by the senses.
Spirituality is that which is beyond the senses.
I'll let you put that together.
Yes, they are incompatible.
Senses smenshes, we have equipment that can scan pretty much the entire electromagnetic spectrum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum#/media/File:Electromagnetic-Spectrum.svg
We can detect movement, gravitational waves, all KINDS of stuff.
The "soul" or spirit or consciousness cannot be detected without the physical matter that creates them, which suggests they are indeed simply the result of the actions and reactions of that matter.
Anyway, it seems we have finally agreed that your spiirt, mojo or whatevertheheck cannot be detected. So, with the patience of a great hunter, I ask yet again...
What is the DIFFERENCE between being entirely and absolutely non-detectable, and simply not existing in the first place?
Riddle me that?
Lol dude those instruments are all based on sensual phenomenon.
Science even admits that they can only detect a very small percentage of reality...yet according to your logic, none of that exists.
"Science even admits that they can only detect a very small percentage of reality"
LOL
Try harder?
It's a simple enough question; why do you keep slithering?
What's the difference between that which cannot be detected and that which does not exist?
Anyways, consciousness can be detected. But not by physical means. Only you can detect it within. You will never be able to prove to others what you perceive within.
Otherwise, enlightenment would be cheap.
But not by physical means
We've been here before. Brainwaves, chemical composition, and we can alter it via chemical drugs, radio waves, blunt trauma, suppression or excess of nutrients etc etc etc.
What's the difference?
[–]BudgieBeater7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The problem is you don't just have to prove the presence of some ethereal higher power, you have to demonstrate that the higher power is the one described in the Bible. And then on top of that you have to demonstrate that the one in the Bible also dictated what was in the Bible.
You've got a long uphill battle there with the first one, people have been trying to win that argument for a few thousand years now, let alone the second and third.
The higher power described in the bible is mostly misunderstood metaphors and bullshit imo.
I think the bhagavad gita hits it on the nail.
Regardless, you actually CANT prove or disprove this subject because it's not an empirical subject.
So you are trying to measure temperature with a ruler and it's pretty fucking pointless!
You are not the higher power though, that much is clear.
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[–]9-BBN14 points15 points16 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]M33RHARIS1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly12 points13 points14 points (61 children) | Copy Link
[–]9-BBN1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]novhaku-1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol-5 points-4 points-3 points (22 children) | Copy Link
[–]Alpha_CyPha8 points9 points10 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]silakto339-1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly3 points4 points5 points (15 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly0 points1 point2 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly0 points1 point2 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chronic_nervosa0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]chronic_nervosa0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]AlbertCohol0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points (35 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly7 points8 points9 points (34 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points (33 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly8 points9 points10 points (32 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (31 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point2 points3 points (30 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (29 children) | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RealBiggly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BudgieBeater7 points8 points9 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link