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Apparently the draft isn't misandrist, is misogynistic!

earl_sleek

January 23, 2012

18 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/osgck/what_is_an_accepted_activity_that_you_find/c3jreqx?context=3

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Post Information

Title	Apparently the draft isn't misandrist, is misogynistic!
Author	earl_sleek
Upvotes	18
Comments	60
Date	January 23, 2012 8:39 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/otca6/apparently_the_draft_isnt_misandrist_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/apparently-the-draft-isnt-misandrist-is.1028842 https://theredarchive.com/post/1028842

Comments

[–]nuclearmedicinemen 24 points25 points26 points 14 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 14 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 14 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

From the report of The Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces (report date November 15, 1992, published in book form by Brassey's in 1993):

The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength… An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer [stress] fractures as men.

Women's aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.
In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man.
Using the standard Army Physical Fitness Test, he found that the upper quintile of women at West point achieved scores on the test equivalent to the bottom quintile of men.
Only 21 women out of the initial 623 (3.4%) achieved a score equal to the male mean score of 260.
On the push-up test, only seven percent of women can meet a score of 60, while 78 percent of men exceed it.
Adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70 percent of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only three percent would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge….

This is not misogyny. It is biology. It is not sexist to point this out.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Legolas-the-elf 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is entirely relevant, when the average female...

Did you miss the sentence after the one you quoted? The averages don't go to war. They are numbers; abstract concepts. So what if the average female cadet doesn't measure up? Why should that matter to an exceptional female cadet that does measure up?

To use an example in the reverse direction: Jockeys do their jobs better when they are lighter. The average man is heavier than the average woman. Does that mean that all those male jockeys that are lighter than the average woman should quit their jobs? Of course not - because the average man isn't getting onto the horse, the individual jockeys are.

If there turns out to be a difference between them, don't get mad.

Again, did you miss the sentence immediately after the one you quoted? Why are you telling me not to get mad when I explicitly said that it would be fair?

[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 14 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what kind of strawman you're making there...

I made no claim that women cannot do the job, I made a claim, and showed evidence, that they do the job just not as well. The military knows this, and its why only a slim minority of women are ever put in direct combat situations. I dated a girl who was in the army for 7 years. 3 deployments, and all of her roles were administrative. She's also triathlete, but my 16 year old nephew has a better mile and 2 mile time.

Women can fulfill many roles in the military. Most of the military is non combat roles. Medics, com, tech, support, engineering, pilots, mess, latrine etc. You know, all the things the men do too. Combat is a small but vital part of the military's role. Either sex can pilot a drone. One sex is better at being out in the field with little to no support.

Again, pointing out these differences between the sexes does not make the discussion sexist.

[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And then they go on to conclude that it's not really worth drafting them at all. Maybe your beef is with them and not me?

The MRA gripe is that we have to register, to be able to vote. Women do not. Either remove the selective service requirement, or enforce for everyone. Either way, make it fucking equal. I have no particular beef with you, just your shit arguments.

It seems like it does in the pretty literal sense of claiming that one sex is superior to the other.

In this specific case, it is not a claim. It is scientific fact. It is biology. Again, so you don't try and misinterpret me, in this specific claim [the one made by the military,] men are better for this specific activity [combat.] This does not mean women cannot enter the military, or that they should not. Recognizing these differences IS NOT SEXIST.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Peter_Principle_ 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Arguments that are based on the idea that the draft is an example of male privilege are goofy because it is absolutely not a privilege to be maimed, PTSD'd, or killed.

Privilege doesn't always work to the direct advantage of the privileged. In some circumstances it can be a severe disadvantage. During a revolution, you'd probably live longer being a peasant than a king, but it seems kind of silly to call that "peasant privilege", when it's a side effect of having no power or influence, which results in having a spectacularly shorter and more shitty life than the king most of the time.

To us a different example, being gay could be considered an advantage if there happens to be a draft going, but it's only an advantage because you're considered too much of a degenerate to be worth drafting, and when there's not a draft on (i.e. most of the time), it sucks to be considered a degenerate. Similarly to the last example, it seems like it would be pretty silly to call that "gay privilege".

because this discrimination is based on biology and capability, not on irrational prejudice.

I don't think this is a very useful distinction. Pretty much everyone believes their prejudices are rational.

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[–]Cartesian_Duelist4 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Occam would be rolling around in his grave.

Okay, now, bare with me. We have a group of people who are not barred from anything except the most grueling and dangerous work in the military. They are actively encouraged to join, often advance quite quickly. They simply cannot serve combat roles on the basis that they will distract. The countries that DO institute a gender-neutral draft yet again do not require the women to put their lives on the line, nor do they require them to serve as long. A woman dying in war is a tragedy, and a man dying is simply a statistic. Even in Canada, where we allow women to go on the front-lines, it's a national day of mourning when a woman dies in battle, and they are never called anything but heroes.

We then have the draft, something reserved exclusively for young men in times where the amount of extra soldiers needed outnumber the amount actually dying in battle, often horrifically. What seems more plausible to you, here; what seems like a greater impetus for this policy? That the society that institutes the draft views men as expendable, or that the women are less capable or valuable? To put it another way:

does a chess player keep his Queen safe because he views it as being of low value?

Does a young man going to war to protect his family view his family as incapable, or lesser? Does a soldier who gives his life for his comrade view said comrade as being innately weaker? I know your ideology requires you to frame everything as a matter of unilateral female oppression, but in what fucking world do you live in where self-sacrifice equates to this?

All this said, I agree with my country's stance on letting women in on active combat. The roles that they wouldn't be suited for physically are highly exclusionary in general. The most apt reason for not allowing them in combat is that men are more likely to try and self-sacrifice themselves, and I assume this type of attitude is also due to religious attitudes.

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