Holy shit. Acquaintance rape prevention for men/women.

Once again you say it is with no attempt to demonstrate with specifics. Under what conditions do feminists start accusing people of victim blaming? One of them is when you suggest something like they should moderate their alcohol intake or worse that the individual should not have drank so much. There is a reason you need to walk on egg shells around feminists when it comes to providing safety advice for women. They believe that there is no pattern and anyone can be a rapist and that it's more likely to be someone you already know and trust.

They can fairly safely offer self defence advice, but they won't say there's anything else you can do, and if they do they are really walking on very thin ice. You linked me to a site to somehow prove us wrong when that didn't say women should take care of how much alcohol they drink the number 1 risk factor being alcohol consumption. You see, it's risky to make that point for them. I'm surprised they even said women should say what they mean. We see Warren Farrell being called a rape apologist because he said women are often not clear when they really want sex or not, and they should be more aware of how they communicate. Karen Straughn was called a rape apologist by Naomi Wolf on the panel discussion recently, why? Because she said rape is difficult to prove. In her talk a feminist interpreted what Karen said as saying it's okay to hit women. This is actually what feminists say all the time.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is no such thing as some absurd movement against personal safety. There is only our dogmatic belief that such an absurd thing exists, thats because we don't know what the meaning behind these campaigns is, and made up our own meaning instead.

Nor do these campaigns boil down to an argument against personal safety, although at first glance they might look like that, we certainly made that mistake.

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking.

If I say campaign against drivers that mount the path to deliberately run over drunk people instead of teaching people not to drink and stay in fields because of these drivers, it doesn't automatically mean that I am against traffick lights, object to road traffic safety and want to walk across streets without looking.

But anyone who finds out that we are wrong about this stuff and that our interpretations are absurd and illogical, and says it out loud, is to be attacked and silenced - just like on feminist forums, athiesm+ and so on.

Why do you think our arguments against rape culture and victim blaming are so easily laughed at, hand waved and taken to be absurd?

Its because we don't even know what its about in the first place and just spin our wheels against an absurd movement against personal safety that never really existed in the first place.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is no such thing as some absurd movement against personal safety.

I said it was a fair characterisation of how they view and treat the issue. There doesn't need to be protests with signs that say "we are not responsible for our actions!" or a website called "womenarenotresponsiblefortheiractions.com" for that to be the case.

Nor do these campaigns boil down to an argument against personal safety, although at first glance they might look like that, we certainly made that mistake.

Depends what you mean by "boil down to" really doesn't it... When debating feminists on the issue the common thread is always that men should be treated to a higher standard of responsibility than women. In fact i will go further, there is absolutely no possible way for one to continue to hold these feminist beliefs and views about rape while not also defending the idea that we shouldn't hold women to the same standards of responsibility as men. If you think it can, then please be my best and play devils advocate and try to.

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking.

That would be a silly exaggerated argument, one I don't see people making. Obviously you are at less risk if you do not ever leave the house. What I do see as an example is someone asking why its different if someone tells someone who's house got robbed they didn't lock their doors and left their windows opened.

Why do you think our arguments against rape culture and victim blaming are so easily laughed at, hand waved and taken to be absurd?

I have yet to see a well thought out rebuttal to our arguments. You have just tried to charactise our arguments with a caricatured strawman, so you're not doing too well either.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I said it was a fair characterisation of how they view and treat the issue.

No its not, its a misinterpretation of it.

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking.

If I say campaign against drivers that mount the path to deliberately run over drunk people instead of teaching people not to drink and stay in fields because of these drivers, it doesn't automatically mean that I am against traffick lights, object to road traffic safety and want to walk across streets without looking.

Its right infront of your eyes, http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1zcuhi/holy_shit_acquaintance_rape_prevention_for/

but you can't let of of the absurd notion that there actually exists a movement against personal safety. This is why you cannot make an coherent argument against them.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking.

WUT.

I literally just replied to this exact thing in the post you replied to. Why didn't you read it? If it wasnt already obvious you don't care what people actually write.

Its right infront of your eyes, http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1zcuhi/holy_shit_acquaintance_rape_prevention_for/

I also replied to that as well, which you also ignored apparently. Since you clearly aren't interested in any of my responses to such an extent that you dont even acknowledge i replied at all, then clearly we're done, again.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

WUT. I literally just replied to this exact thing in the post you replied to. Why didn't you read it? If it wasn't already obvious you don't care what people actually write.

Yeah, you said that is an argument your don't hear "them" making.

That is one of the central rationales for the anti victim blaming movement that you argue so much about, and in the years you have been involved in the debate, you have never heard if it and instead have the absurd belief that its really argument against personal safety.

You will likely feel like blaming the victim. Why?

Study show that the entourage often blame the victims for what has happened. In fact, it seems that blaming the other is a protective function leading people to believe that the world is a safe a predictable place. To attribute the traumatic event to randomness or to society would cause too much insecurity, as it would mean that it could also happen to you. This can lead you to unconsciously deduct that it is rather the individual’s personality traits or his behaviours that are responsible for the trauma, and this can explain your likeliness to blame the victim.

You could also blame the individual for having or for not having done this or that in order to avoid the event. However, it is not fare to judge the actions of individual at the time of the event, because you are doing so with some information that the individual did not have at the time of these actions. Another factor to take into account is your actual emotional state, which is very different from the emotional state of the individual at the very moment he was living the event. Even if you know some details about the traumatic event, you did not experience it, you did not feel the intensity and the range of emotions. It is thus not fare to minimize the event and criticize the actions of the victim. It is important to keep in mind that the individual did what he could do in these circumstances.

It is very well possible that at one point you could blame the victim for the post-traumatic symptoms that also affect your daily life. It is not easy to see someone you love suffer. His suffering could make you feel helpless and even guilty, not knowing how to help him. His state could also make you feel angry. You might advise him, tell him what to do and feel like he is not making enough efforts to come out of this state. So, even with the best feelings at heart and the best of intentions, it is easy to understand how you could come to the point of blaming the victim.

http://www.osiss.ca/docs/RecoveringfromaTrauma_EN.pdf

You argue and argue as if you know something all this stuff, but you don't even know what the basic ideas behind it are and base everything you off memes, the lest informed follower feminists, and this movements misinterpretations. The mens movement is determined to spin its ideological wheels against a movement against personal responsibility and safety, that never really existed in the first place.

Have you not heard them making the argument lets focus on telling drivers not to mount the pavement to deliberately run people over instead of focusing on telling people to stay off the pavements and in fields because of these drivers?

That isn't an argument against road traffic safety.

What this movement thinks its about, is absurd.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"focus on telling drivers not to deliberately mount the path and run people over, instead of focusing on telling people to stay off the paths and home at night because of those drivers".
Is an argument against road safety.

That form of response would be a mockery of the... "tell rapists not to rape, don't tell me how to not get raped". The analogy is poor anyway because its comparing road accidents to crimes. A better analogy would be ... "focus on telling thieves not to steal, instead of telling people to lock their windows and doors". If that sounds silly, then why should we not also think it sounds silly when we talk about rape? Im not sure why you feel this is an unfair response.

Regarding your conduct in these arguments... When you make a point or ask someone question and they respond to it, you do not just literally copy and paste the same exact thing they just replied to, as if they had not already replied to it. If you don't like their response, then you rephrase your point or explain why their response isn't good enough. If I ask you a question, you answer it, and I ask the same exact question I just asked you as if I'm a computer program I suspect you'd be a bit irritated.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That form of response would be a mockery of the... "tell rapists not to rape, don't tell me how to not get raped". The analogy is poor anyway because its comparing road accidents to crimes.

No, its comparing deliberately mounting the path to deliberately run someone over, with raping someone.

House breaking is a poor analogy because that's property, not a violent crime against an individual that typically gets ptsd and then suffers excessive self blame, trauma and excessive shame which is then made worse through victim blaming.

You are supposed to know what these things are about but you clearly don't with your house breaking analogy.

You said yourself, you did not know the central meaning of the victim blaming movement.

Your contributions and the mens movements to this are largely irrelevant on account of not knowing and misinterpreting the subject.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, its comparing deliberately mounting the path to deliberately run someone over, with raping someone.

Exactly why i said it is a poor analogy.

House breaking is a poor analogy because that's property, not a violent crime against an individual that typically gets ptsd and then suffers excessive self blame, trauma and excessive shame which is then made worse through victim blaming.

Not only is this wrong, its also irrelevant. So firstly, lets deal with you being wrong....

People can in fact get PTSD from their house being robbed. It can be very traumatic and people can get very paranoid about it afterwards, this is well accepted and understood.

Signs To Look Out For ---- After a house robbery, children or adults may become obsessive about checking locks, or become extremely anxious about noises in the night. Over time, these fears should subside, but for the person with post traumatic stress disorder they persist.
--- Traumatic Stress & Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - Family Therapy.org

What type of impact can a home robbery have on someone's overall life?

"A home robbery can be a disruptive and traumatic experience and is an experience of crime victimization. Although people know that crime happens and that home robberies are possible it is natural to assume that your home will not be intruded upon. When a person/family's home is robbed it can be very impactful and unsettling to have had someone intrude in the place where you live that is meant to be safe and within your control. Experiencing this crime can also mean a loss or damage of property of both financial and sentimental value and dealing with the criminal justice system, banks, insurance companies, security systems, costs accrued and lost time at work or school can be very stressful and demanding.

Common emotional reactions include feelings of powerlessness, anger, insecurity, grief, lack of safety, increased worry for children or loved ones, fear that the perpetrators could return, and hyper-vigilance including startling more easily, increased sensitivity to noises or hyper-awareness of one's surroundings. There is typically some degree of post-traumatic stress that can last days, weeks, or continue longer depending on the unique facets and ripple effects of the robbery or past experiences of trauma or loss a person has had.
--- How to Cope with the Stress of a Home Robbery - Interview with Psychotherapist Angela Lehr, MS, LPC

Its also irrelevant anyway, because you're talking about not hurting someones feelings. It will still be just as irrationally stupid to say "tell rapists not to rape, don't tell me how to not get raped" as it is to say "tell thieves not to steal, don't tell me to lock my windows and doors". It doesn't become not stupid just because someone might be hurt to hear that their house was targeted for robbery probably because they left their downstairs windows open when they went on holiday and that no amount of "tell thieves not to steal" will make a difference.

You are supposed to know what these things are about but you clearly don't with your house breaking analogy.

Except you just told me victims of home robbery do not get PTSD and don't suffer emotional trauma or self blame, when its well known and accepted that they can and do, clearly its you don't know anything about this.

You also can't come up with a single reason for why its stupid to say "tell thieves not to steal, don't tell me to lock my windows and doors", but not "tell rapists not to rape, don't tell me how to not get raped". Does a victims feelings affect the reality that rapists don't give a shit if society says rape is wrong? The entire logic presumes that men need to be told not to rape, and they can accidentally rape, or just that telling them will make them stop. The reality is rapists know what they are doing is wrong, they either don't care or they get off on it.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You think housebreaking is a good analogy because you don't know the subject.

The analogy has to be a violent act against another, that typically leaves the other with PTSD trauma, self blame and shame which is made worse and more difficult to treat when there is victim blaming.

A driver deliberately running someone over, someone deliberately beating someone up, ptsd from being in a war zone ... these analogies work.

You are really barking up the wrong tree with property theft and trespassing, different crime and there typically isn't a victim blaming / ptsd issue there.

You really don't know the subject so your contributions and arguments are largely uninformed and irrelevant to the topic, thats why your analogies are so wrong.

Your absurd movement against personal safety doesn't exist in the first place.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Here, given that there is proof that the victim blaming movement is about something other than what you say it is, and there is proof that feminists are rebranding rape prevention tips to make them more accurate and feasible and not doing away with them - you are making extraordinary and extraordinary sounding claims and you have to prove them to be true.

I won't accept a sarcastic internet meme that is basically saying "lets focus on teaching drivers not to deliberately run people over instead of focusing mainly on telling people to stay off the roads when they are out" as proof there exists some absurd movement that's against personal responsibility and safety.

And lets leave it at that. Either come up with solid proof of this nonsensical agenda against personal safety you say exists, or stop arguing that it exists.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

given that there is proof that the victim blaming movement is about something other than what you say it is,

What do you think this link is meant to show me?

proof that feminists are rebranding rape prevention tips to make them more accurate and feasible and not doing away with them

I already replied to this link. You ignored it before, Im not going to type it out again. You must acknowledge what I wrote.

you are making extraordinary and extraordinary sounding claims and you have to prove them to be true.

Its not extraordinary to say that saying... "don't tell me how to avoid being robbed, tell the thieves not to rob me!" is stupid.

Either come up with solid proof of this nonsensical agenda against personal safety you say exists, or stop arguing that it exists.

Oh hey strawman, how ya doing? Someone doesn't need to show there is a conscious agenda to say that their arguments lead one to conclude they don't like the idea that women should be held responsible for their actions.

Well there you go, you shouldn't be helpfully telling people that were burgled what they did "wrong" either.

LOL So after telling me I don't know what Im talking about you now accept it is a valid analogy

Its not about the part that says they should have done XYZ. Its the part where they say "DON'T tell us how to avoid being a victim of crime, tell the criminals to stop committing the crime". That is the relevant part.

And do make up your mind, should we tell people how to avoid becoming victims of crime or not?

And we do teach kids and people not to steal, there is more focus on that than telling people to lock their chimneys, not have windows and never go out.

Actually there is a lot of focus on how to avoid victimization regarding robbery, despite your exaggerated caricature. In fact its this way for practically any other crime.

None the less you need person to person violence to make your analogy work.

LOL so despite telling me my analogy is now fine and yes it really does make just as much sense as when feminists say the same thing about rape, you again tell me its not fine moments later.

Drivers deliberately running people over, a parent being abusive / raping, a friend or acquaintance raping, someone just assaulting someone else and so on.

WHY? You told me before its because home robbery dosn't give you PTSD and emotional trauma etc, yet I just showed you it is well understood that it can and does. So what reason do you still separate the two?

And for the nth time, why does it matter how the victim FEELS? You keep ignoring this, why can't you ever answer a straight question?

And please stop breaking up your fucking comments.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What do you think this link is meant to show me?

What the victim blaming movement is about and how its not what you believe it is.

I already replied to this link. You ignored it before, Im not going to type it out again. You must acknowledge what I wrote.

That link proves that they are rebranding and taking control of rape prevention tips for women, not trying to do away with them and personal responsibility as you claim.

Its not extraordinary to say that "don't tell me how to avoid being robbed, tell the thieves not to rob me!" is stupid.

Your analogy doesn't work when its applied to inter personal violence. And we do teach children and people not to steal, more than we load people up with inaccurate theft prevention tips that would be impossible to follow.

So what reason do you still separate the two?

Why does interpersonal violence not work as an analogy for you, why the need to move it away from interpersonal violence to property theft to make it work?

You need to come up with convincing proof that they are against personal safety and personal responsibility because your claims are absurd and your analogies don't work and the evidence flatly contradicts what you have being saying.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What the victim blaming movement is about and how its not what you believe it is.

Jeez, its like Im talking to an intellectual disabled person. YES, I know that is your claim. HOW does the link you provided "prove" that claim? You can't just say the same thing again and think that is enough.

That link proves that they are rebranding and taking control of rape prevention tips for women, not trying to do away with them as you claim.

As I said before it has not one mention of alcohol, the single greatest risk factor. If they intend to provide women with actual advice as you say, does this mean we can infer that they are not mentioning this intentionally so more women will be raped? If thats not the case, then please pick an explanation, because it can't be both.

Your analogy doesn't work when its applied to inter personal violence

You have a real problem understanding that you need to do more than just make a claim. WHY doesn't it work? You just refuse to explain why. You also refuse to explain why its even relevant why the feelings of the victim makes a single bit of difference to the point here. It doesn't matter how bad someone feels, its not going to change reality.

And we do teach children and people not to steal, more than we load people up with inaccurate theft prevention tips that would be impossible to follow.

Who is giving anyone "impossible" to follow advice?

As I just said there is actually a lot of focus on how to avoid victimization regarding robbery, despite your exaggerated caricature as if there is not. In fact its this way for practically all other crimes. You and feminists want rape to be considered separate, entirely special. But not only in terms of treatment of victims of the crime, but also apparently you believe reality itself can bend to your will. That contrary to all the evidence for no reason at all you believe that women should not to or cannot take steps to avoid being raped, and therefore all that is left to do is tell men to not do it. When feminists say... "don't tell me how to avoid being raped, tell men not to rape"... it is wrong in literally every single possible way. Disagree? Then tell me a single way it is valid.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Jeez, its like Im talking to an intellectual disabled person. YES, I know that is your claim. HOW does the link you provided "prove" that claim? You can't just say the same thing again and think that is enough.

This is what the victim blaming movement is about and it contradicts your absurd version.

Again.

You will likely feel like blaming the victim. Why? Study show that the entourage often blame the victims for what has happened. In fact, it seems that blaming the other is a protective function leading people to believe that the world is a safe a predictable place. To attribute the traumatic event to randomness or to society would cause too much insecurity, as it would mean that it could also happen to you. This can lead you to unconsciously deduct that it is rather the individual’s personality traits or his behaviours that are responsible for the trauma, and this can explain your likeliness to blame the victim.

You could also blame the individual for having or for not having done this or that in order to avoid the event. However, it is not fare to judge the actions of individual at the time of the event, because you are doing so with some information that the individual did not have at the time of these actions. Another factor to take into account is your actual emotional state, which is very different from the emotional state of the individual at the very moment he was living the event. Even if you know some details about the traumatic event, you did not experience it, you did not feel the intensity and the range of emotions. It is thus not fare to minimize the event and criticize the actions of the victim. It is important to keep in mind that the individual did what he could do in these circumstances.

It is very well possible that at one point you could blame the victim for the post-traumatic symptoms that also affect your daily life. It is not easy to see someone you love suffer. His suffering could make you feel helpless and even guilty, not knowing how to help him. His state could also make you feel angry. You might advise him, tell him what to do and feel like he is not making enough efforts to come out of this state. So, even with the best feelings at heart and the best of intentions, it is easy to understand how you could come to the point of blaming the victim. http://www.osiss.ca/docs/RecoveringfromaTrauma_EN.pdf

Who is giving anyone "impossible" to follow advice?

You really don't know anything about this. Its long been argued that traditional rape prevent tips are unfeasible, largely useless and impossible to follow.

Parody video of what would happen if a women tried to follow traditional rape prevention tips. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57KXo13Z8nI

"don't tell me how to avoid being raped, tell men not to rape"

You know what hyperbole is?

So telling drivers not to mount the path to deliberately run people over is wrong, and focusing entirely on long lists of unfeasible tips to avoid them is right?

They give rape prevention advice to women, they are rebranding it, there is no movement against personal responsibility and personal safety.

You need to prove your absurd claims beyond citing hyperbolic catch phrases.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is what the victim blaming movement is about and it contradicts your absurd version.

... yes... this is the third time I am reading it, but you are not telling me why you believe this is some kind of slam dunk. I cant see any relevance to proving your point, and it certainly doesn't affect mine. Can you explain why you think it does or not?

We are talking about a single sentence that you have decided to defend.

"don't tell me how to avoid being raped, tell men not to rape"

If you are trying to say that we should not focus on what victims should have done immediately after the fact, I never suggested otherwise. That is still something that should be talked about eventually, and feminists typically like to act like there was nothing they could have done, that it was entirely random and there as nothing even about them that made them a more attractive target at all. It should be talked about at some point because in a situation like this people will have a feeling of powerlessness and they need to feel there was something they could have done to change what happened to them, so they can avoid feeling like it could happen again at any moment for no reason in the future.

So even if I granted you the first part, which I don't, there is still no explanation for "... tell men not to rape".

You really don't know anything about this. Its long been argued that traditional rape prevent tips are unfeasible, largely useless and impossible to follow.

Parody video of what would happen if a women tried to follow traditional rape prevention tips. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57KXo13Z8nI

Did you actually watch this? It doesn't look like it. How you think this supports your case that they are not really against the idea of rape prevention advice is beyond me, when they make a video attempting to parody the mere idea.

I also like how you call this "impossible advice". Please actually watch it. Aside from the strawmen (like at the start with the clothes), a lot of what they said isn't anywhere near impossible. Since alcohol is the most significant factor in rape, then advising women about this is not at all "impossible" advice. UNLESS you already believe its impossible to to lower your risk of being raped. Advising women to try and leave evidence on the rapist so that it makes it easier to prosecute is also not impossible to follow advice and actually is quite a good idea considering how difficult it is to prosecute.

You know what hyperbole is?

lol, so you believe the feminist organisations don't really exist that tell men not to rape women on the basis that they might forget if not reminded, and that they need to be told what rape is in case they didn't already know.

I like how you ignored the fact that your source that "proved" feminists cared about providing rape prevention advice doesn't want to warn women about the strongest risk factor, being drunk. I asked you before, if that website really is what you say it is, then it means they excluded it intentionally so women can more likely be raped.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you provide some evidence that what you claiming exists.

You did not know what you are talking about, you only found out what the victim blaming movement is about a few hours ago and its not about what you claim. It is a slam dunk, you said yourself had never heard the meaning of what you argue intensely about.

You did not know that traditional rape prevention lists are considered inaccurate and unfeasible to follow.

The feminists movement is giving out rebranded rape prevention tips, they are not removing them or arguing against personal safety, that is proven.

All you have got are misinterpretations of hyperbole and an unshakable belief in the absurd.

Get proof that isn't a hyperbolic catch phrase or your misinterpretation of a hyperbolic internet meme or fuck off.

There is no such absurd thing as a movement against personal safety.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you provide some evidence that what you claiming exists.

I am sorry but you've have been making claims all day you refuse to back up, or when you try they actually debunk you.

You do not know what you are talking about

Says the person who said you cant get PTSD from a home robbery.

When will you get around to telling me why a victims feelings makes a single bit of difference as to whether this statement is valid... "don't tell me how to avoid being raped, tell men not to rape" or a "victim of crime, tell the criminals to stop committing the crime"

You did not know that that traditional rape prevention lists are considered inaccurate and unfeasible.

Please, paint a face in your hand and just talk to that.

The feminists are giving out rebranded rape prevention tips, they are not removing them.

In your own example you gave to prove that it didn't mention alcohol the number 1 risk factor. I know... awkward isnt it.

All you have got is misinterpretations of hyperbole and an unshakable belief in the absurd.

Is the entire thing hyperbole? Do any feminists really believe that men should be taught what rape is, and told not to do it? Do they all believe that telling men to not rape, that they need to be taught what is rape, is absurdly stupid (and hateful)? Is it all just satire and they all do actually recognize that there are things women can and should consider when it comes to mitigating the threat of rape?

Hmm whats also funny is earlier you were actually saying that we teach people not to commit crimes more than providing "impossible" ways to reduce risk of victimization. Were you just being sarcastic as well?

There is no such absurd thing as a movement against personal safety.

How about you recorded yourself saying what you think Im saying, and then stuck the recorder in a teddy bear and then pretended it was me.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, I've backed up my claims, you haven't.

You claimed home robbery doesnt cause PTSD. I showed you it did. Lets pretend that never happened...

You claimed Goshen College proved "feminists are rebranding rape prevention tips to make them more accurate and feasible and not doing away with them", except they don't include the number 1 risk factor - alcohol consumption. Now, are these feminists just incompetent that they didnt include it or do they have a malicious agenda to get women raped?

You have yet to explain the relevance of your other quote at all.

Bizarrely you post a video parody that is meant to show me how impossible and absurd rape advice is, and it actually demonstrates that feminists think perfectly fair and reasonable advice is stupid.

What else have you claimed? Oh yes, you also said that someone's feelings makes a difference as to whether this... ""don't tell me how to avoid being raped, tell men not to rape""... is reasonable or factually based or not.

So can you get proof that isn't some hyperbolic catch phrase

I asked you a question, just so we aren't arguing strawmen here. When you say "hyperbole", is the entire thing hyperbole? Do any feminists really believe that men should be taught what rape is, and told not to do it? Do they all believe that telling men to not rape, that they need to be taught what is rape, is absurdly stupid (and hateful)? Is it all just satire and they all do actually recognize that there are things women can and should consider when it comes to mitigating the threat of rape?

Earlier you were actually saying that we teach people not to commit crimes more than providing "impossible" ways to reduce risk of victimization.

Was that nonsense as well?

If its hyoerbole, please translate the line so I can understand what they really mean when they say it. In your own words please, in one or two sentences. k thnx,

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The fact that that college aren't telling women not to drink doesn't prove your dogma that there is an agenda personal responsibility. It just shows they are avoiding traditional tips, and following their tips requires relative sobriety anyway.

You have not backed up your claims, all you have do is nitpicked sources that contradict your dogma.

Earlier you were actually saying that we teach people not to commit crimes more than providing "impossible" ways to reduce risk of victimization.

You are lying. It was stealing. I said we teach children and people not to steal, and we have ancient texts ordering people not to steal, and we don't bog down homeowners with lists of unfeasible and inaccurate tips that would be near impossible to follow. The police give out accurate information and its not mra's telling people to lock their chimneys and never go out.

Can you get your evidence of what you say exists, or go away.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nah, thats up the thread and was reiterated lots of time. Get your evidence or Go away.

Nah, I remember what we talked about and each time all you did is post the quote and link, and your claim again. And you would do that verbatim each time. Much further up you had literally just posted the same stuff I had already replied to as if I hadnt said anything. You dont know how to discuss things.

You are lying. It was stealing. I said we teach children and people not to steal, and we have ancient texts ordering people not to steal, and we don't bog down homeowners down with lists of unfeasible and inaccurate tips that would be near impossible to follow. The police give out accurate information and its not mra's telling people to lock their chimneys and never go out.

LOL I love where you say that Im lying and yet what I said still applies to stealing. And what... do you think it doesn't applies to anything else? Well gee sorry for assuming you actually wanted to be consistent. We treat only rape differently to other crimes, and you want to keep it that way. I am saying, as is the MRM, that we should not treat rape special and separate distinct from any other crime.

The police give out accurate information and its not mra's telling people to lock their chimneys and never go out.

So you say Im lying and then characterize MRAs arguments like this. You are a joke. As it was presented in your "parody" video, the advice it makes fun of you say is "impossible advice". But since alcohol is the most significant factor in rape, then advising women about this is not at all "impossible" advice. UNLESS you already believe its impossible to lower your risk of being raped. Advising women to try and leave evidence on the rapist so that it makes it easier to prosecute is also not impossible to follow advice and actually is quite a good idea considering how difficult it is to prosecute. No one, literally no one at all is saying women shouldn't leave the house, or anything like that. You love to cast around accusations of lying and strawmen but you can't help do it yourself, can you?

Can you get your evidence of what you say exists, or go away.

What am I saying? You keep caricaturing it into an absurd distortion i never even implied, or in fact has anyone ever said.

Still waiting for you to deal with this one:

You claimed Goshen College proved "feminists are rebranding rape prevention tips to make them more accurate and feasible and not doing away with them", except they don't include the number 1 risk factor - alcohol consumption. Now, are these feminists just incompetent that they didnt include it or do they have a malicious agenda to get women raped?

You havent backed up your claims if you fail to deal with my response to them.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The relevance of that link.

I was pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about.

I explained

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking.

You then said you had never heard "them" make that argument.

I posted that link to show you that arguement is the near entire basis of the slut walk / victim blaming argument, demonstrating how little about this you know.

So, rather than walls of text, opinion and references to hyperbolic catch phrases, and internet memes, can you gather some evidence like I do, or go away.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I explained

If you are deliberately run over and I point out that it would not have happened if you stayed at home or in a field and that makes your trauma, ptsd and self blame worse and you tell me to fuck off because I'm not helping, it doesn't mean you are against any kind of traffic safety and want to walk across the street without looking. You then said you had never heard "them" make that argument.

Except no one is defending the behavior you are talking about. So why do you insist on arguing against such a distorted caricature?

In the short term, its best not to say those things. That is right. In the long term, a victim must feel they have some power so they can fully recover. To do that they need to feel like they had any ability to potentially change the outcome of what happened to them. The worst case for someone is when the crime against them was totally random, and then they need to accept how unlikley it was in order to fully recover. The worst is when someone believes it was all totally random, they had no power then or power in the future to lower their risk of it happening again.

But all this still assumes we're talking only to victims, and not people who dont want to become victims. Even if I did agree completely with how you treat victims, it would still not make any sense.

So, rather than walls of text,

HAHA wow. Says the guy who will freely quote walls of text over and over with no commentary on how it applies to the points. My "walls of text" is me replying to your claims, but you ignore them.

Now would you be kind enough to actually reply to what I wrote above, and not just ignore it and restate the same claims as if I hadnt said anything like you've been doing the entire time?

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The victim blaming argument is one against that behaviour.

Well isnt that totally broad and meaningless! Where have any MRA anywhere said that women shouldn't even leave the house? Where has any MRA said anything like that? I have heard no MRA make the arguments you keep attributing to them.

Why did you totally ignore what I said? This is a direct response to your entire point here. Deal with it or don't, but don't pretend you are when you're not.

In the short term, its best not to say those things. That is right. In the long term, a victim must feel they have some power so they can fully recover. To do that they need to feel like they had any ability to potentially change the outcome of what happened to them. The worst case for someone is when the crime against them was totally random, and then they need to accept how unlikley it was in order to fully recover. The worst is when someone believes it was all totally random, they had no power then or power in the future to lower their risk of it happening again.

But all that still assumes we're talking only to victims, and not people who dont want to become victims. Even if I did agree completely with how you treat victims, it would still not make any sense.

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I find our theories about the meaning of these things to be flatly contradicted by facts and only wheel spinning in the absence of knowing what the actual meaning of these things are.

So its a white elephant, there is nothing we can do with these theories, except advertise the fact we don't know what we are on about and waste our time and energy, they don't work for us at all.

We only went the "personal responsibility" direction because we misinterpreted slut walk and stupidly backed up a cop who said "if women don't want to get raped, the shouldn't dress like sluts". Then the trolls and lower order feminists we deal with started calling us victim blamers, we then started arguing rape prevention tips back to them which they responded with more accusations of victim blamer.

We could instead learn about it, and then know how to debunk the important parts (not rape prevention tips or victimblaming) in two sentences flat, like I can and ignore all the nonsense about rape prevention tips and personal safety, If we all did that instead of fighting against a movement against personal safety that exists mainly in our imaginations, we would make very short work of it.

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Everything is someone's perception, the question is how accurate that perception is. What I do know is the way you represent the MRM argument here is a misrepresentation and a caricature. This can be innocent but turns into stubbornness once someone doesn't listen to why. I can explain why your representation of the MRM argument here is not what they are saying. That even if you said it was just an exaggeration, it wouldn't be at all justified.

When I try and explain to you what the argument is you attack here, you don't respond to the points mostly just repeating the same points and even extant sample posts the you wrote before to me that I already replied to. You can't just state the same thing again, you need to explain it.

If MRAs are wrong then you would still be wrong because your reason for why they are wrong is based on attacking strawmen misrepresentation and not their actual position

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[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your exact words where "if never head them make that argument" when shown one of the two central themes behind victim blaming.

This -

You will likely feel like blaming the victim. Why? Study show that the entourage often blame the victims for what has happened. In fact, it seems that blaming the other is a protective function leading people to believe that the world is a safe a predictable place. To attribute the traumatic event to randomness or to society would cause too much insecurity, as it would mean that it could also happen to you. This can lead you to unconsciously deduct that it is rather the individual’s personality traits or his behaviours that are responsible for the trauma, and this can explain your likeliness to blame the victim. You could also blame the individual for having or for not having done this or that in order to avoid the event. However, it is not fare to judge the actions of individual at the time of the event, because you are doing so with some information that the individual did not have at the time of these actions. Another factor to take into account is your actual emotional state, which is very different from the emotional state of the individual at the very moment he was living the event. Even if you know some details about the traumatic event, you did not experience it, you did not feel the intensity and the range of emotions. It is thus not fare to minimize the event and criticize the actions of the victim. It is important to keep in mind that the individual did what he could do in these circumstances. It is very well possible that at one point you could blame the victim for the post-traumatic symptoms that also affect your daily life. It is not easy to see someone you love suffer. His suffering could make you feel helpless and even guilty, not knowing how to help him. His state could also make you feel angry. You might advise him, tell him what to do and feel like he is not making enough efforts to come out of this state. So, even with the best feelings at heart and the best of intentions, it is easy to understand how you could come to the point of blaming the victim. http://www.osiss.ca/docs/RecoveringfromaTrauma_EN.pdf

And all our arguments have revolved around the facts on the ground verse's mra dogma and misinterpretations.

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From what I can see you pretty much ideologically police any information about it published here that is correct and contradicts mrm dogma and misunderstanding of it.

...Wat. All I ask is you argue your case not just post the same accusations over and over and misrepresent us/me.

This is the argument in this thread you said you were unaware of them making.

Its this behavior that maks me think you are mentally disabled. I just replied to this.

What I said was that MRAs do not make this argument the way you have written it. I did say it does have value and a valid point. I also said there is a better analogy to make. MRAs make more analogies than just "running in traffic". In fact you will likely find much more examples where they talk about being robbed and locking your house than the one you gave.

I see you skipped the issue yet again of you providing any answers as to why property crime is not a comparable example, or why a victims feelings matters whatsoever as to the point being made. It seems to me this is the heart of the matter but when we get close you just ignore it.

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Here they giving out rape prevention tips

http://www.goshen.edu/campuslife/counseling/sexuality/prevention/

Here is what don't blame the victim is about.

You will likely feel like blaming the victim. Why?

Study show that the entourage often blame the victims for what has happened. In fact, it seems that blaming the other is a protective function leading people to believe that the world is a safe a predictable place. To attribute the traumatic event to randomness or to society would cause too much insecurity, as it would mean that it could also happen to you. This can lead you to unconsciously deduct that it is rather the individual’s personality traits or his behaviours that are responsible for the trauma, and this can explain your likeliness to blame the victim.

You could also blame the individual for having or for not having done this or that in order to avoid the event. However, it is not fare to judge the actions of individual at the time of the event, because you are doing so with some information that the individual did not have at the time of these actions. Another factor to take into account is your actual emotional state, which is very different from the emotional state of the individual at the very moment he was living the event. Even if you know some details about the traumatic event, you did not experiment it, you did not feel the intensity and the range of emotions. It is thus not fare to minimize the event and criticize the actions of the victim. It is important to keep in mind that the individual did what he could do in these circumstances.

It is very well possible that at one point you could blame the victim for the post-traumatic symptoms that also affect your daily life. It is not easy to see someone you love suffer. His suffering could make you feel helpless and even guilty, not knowing how to help him. His state could also make you feel angry. You might advise him, tell him what to do and feel like he is not making enough efforts to come out of this state. So, even with the best feelings at heart and the best of intentions, it is easy to understand how you could come to the point of blaming the victim.

“What should I avoid doing?”

Don’t expect your life to be like it used to be

It is difficult to accept the changes imposed by the symptoms of a post-traumatic stress disorder on your loved one and on yourself, but you have to accept them, keeping in mind that, in the long term, they could have positive effects.

Make sure not to blame the victim

Now that you now that we all have a natural tendency to blame the victims, as explained previously, it is important to avoid blaming. In fact, apart from being an expression of emotions, blames do not solve anything. On the contrary, if they are frequent, the victim will feel more isolated and shameful, and this might adversely affect his recovery. You have to keep in mind that the person is working on accepting the worst event in his life. And this is one huge task.

http://www.osiss.ca/docs/RecoveringfromaTrauma_EN.pdf

These are the facts, contrary to the absurd theories you are putting forward.

[–]Alzael1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, you're just saying the exact same thing.

To reiterate:

Yes, because absolutely nothing a woman does effects what happens in her life in anyway. A woman exists only as a thing for the forces of the universe to use and abuse. No matter what she does or what choices she makes, if fate decides it's her day then she's going to get raped. Why bother taking precautions when there's nothing she can do? She's just a thing after all.

It's not an absurd theory. It is what you have just written. Just in a different form. Nothing you have said so far has refuted that interpretation. You're just claiming it's wrong and then providing different wording for the same ideas.

I'm sorry, but you fail. And you fail pitifully. It is amusing watching you try though. Might I suggest that you first take a moment to actually learn what a fact is? It might help you seem less like an idiot.

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I don't believe it is safe for anyone to stumble home drunk at night, male or female.

So? Everyone knows there is certain risk in that and these rape prevention people know that rapes don't really happen like that, thats one reason why they object amateurs giving to out that sort of advice. Rape victims are not just people that cannot comprehend simple things.

But I've never had a man scream victim blaming at me when I told him he might still have his wallet if he hadn't spent the night unconscious on a sidewalk.

He might well tell you to fuck off for being a redundant and rubbing salt in the wound.

When people are traumatized with PTSD - men and women, having people around pointing out how they went wrong and brought it on themselves, and making redundant, obvious observations about how if they had done something else it wouldn't have happened makes their trauma worse and harder to treat, they already suffer from self blame.

Thats where "don't blame the victim" comes from.

There is no such thing as a movement against personal safety, thats absurd.

[–]Alzael1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not opposed. None of the advice they gave would actually prevent a rape, except for maybe trust your instincts. Everything else is just telling women to either be clear about whether they want it or not or not to victim blame. Nothing about that actually involves women using any sort of agency to protect themselves.

So, again:

Yes, because absolutely nothing a woman does effects what happens in her life in anyway. A woman exists only as a thing for the forces of the universe to use and abuse. No matter what she does or what choices she makes, if fate decides it's her day then she's going to get raped. Why bother taking precautions when there's nothing she can do? She's just a thing after all.

You still haven't refuted anything. You're just making my case for me. Thank you for that, by the way.

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I def agree. seems like it would be a fairly simple act to isolate a woman and then rape with the threat of violence leaving no physical evidence that would suggest anything different from consensual sex.

But just because there are bad people out in the world doesn't mean that society should treat everyone like a bad person.

A rapist knows that rape is wrong and doesn't give a shit. All flyers and marches and candle light vigils and PSAs about BAD MEN! DONT RAPE! Will not dissuade the rapist. The same way the death penalty doesnt dissuade murderers, and "All Shoplifters Will Be Prosecuted To The Full Extent Of The Law" doesnt stop shoplifters. All it does is alienate decent men from wanting to be near women. If I was a young man in college, I wouldn't wanna associate with women, much less engage in a relationship or be alone in a room with one.

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"All it does is alienate decent men from wanting to be near women. If I was a young man in college, I wouldn't wanna associate with women, much less engage in a relationship or be alone in a room with one."

While I do agree with that, and don't support the campaigns as they are, being almost entirely focused on males/male perpetrators, I'll go ahead and play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment anyway.

Are you certain that things like that aren't effective deterrents?

For instance, do "no trespassing" signs not dissuade people from trespassing? I suppose that's an incomplete analogy, but then again, there is generally already some level of assumption that you shouldn't be roaming around on private property.

Better examples, the ones that you used:

"The same way the death penalty doesnt dissuade murderers, and "All Shoplifters Will Be Prosecuted To The Full Extent Of The Law" doesnt stop shoplifters."

Former might be true, not certain (I think the death penalty's ineffectiveness has more to do with the application, rather than the fact that it just involves a potential for "execution," but nevertheless); however, for the latter, are you certain that those signs don't dissuade some people who might have shop-lifted had that sign not been there?

The signs don't stop everyone, of course, but what about the person who sees that sign and thinks: "Ah, well, they might be a little too vigilant about shop-lifting/shop-lifters here, I better not risk it..."?

Is it not possible that the signs actually do help to dissuade some people who shop-lift from shop-lifting in areas which have such signs? What if there appears to be a correlation between locations with such signs and a decrease in shop-lifting in those areas (around the same time); what if it really is helping to dissuade people who would have shop-lifted otherwise, but we just don't necessarily know it in all cases since a lot of them chose not to (aside from when the rates decrease, which somewhat helps to give an idea of the effectiveness of the deterrents).

The sign isn't meant to be an absolute safeguard, it's there to get people to think twice about what they might have been planning to do; the same could be applied to those anti-rape campaigns.

It's sort of like a: "We know that you're out there, we know who you are, and we're watching you; we will do something about it" type thing; even if they don't absolutely know, it's just intended, in essence, to get people to think twice/to dissuade them from acting.

Check this article out and tell me your thoughts:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/

"The poster is one of three that went up at bars and around the city last summer as part of a campaign to chip away at the increasing rate of sexual assaults in recent years in Vancouver.

Six months later, Deputy Chief Doug LePard says the Don’t Be That Guy campaign has contributed to a turnaround in statistics on sexual offences in Vancouver.

The rate dropped in 2011 by about 10 per cent, the first time in several years it had gone down.

Sexual assaults had defied recent trends in crime. While the overall rate dropped every year over the past decade, the rate of sexual offences went up. Strathcona had the highest number of sexual assaults in Vancouver from 2008 to 2010. The police linked the statistics to the large number of prostitutes in the area.

But Strathcona was not alone. Sexual assaults in downtown Vancouver, Coal Harbour and the West End increased by 22 per cent from 2008 to 2009 and went up another 29 per cent from 2009 to 2010. On the west side of Vancouver, sexual assaults dropped in 2009 but increased the next year to nearly the 2008 level."

Of course, correlation =/= causation, so we can't, with absolute certainty, attribute the decrease to the anti-rape campaigns as the police appear to have, but nevertheless, would you argue that the campaigns had nothing at all to do with the drop?

And, if so, what would convince you that the campaigns are effective, if not a decrease in the rates of sexual assault/rape/sexual offences?

Here's another one (only semi-relevant this time):

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/01/edmonton-sexual-assault-awareness-campaign-dont-be-that-guy_n_2224228.html

"It was a campaign so effective at getting the word out to potential offenders of sexual assault, the Edmonton police are bringing it back.

According to the Edmonton Journal, the Edmonton Police Services and a local coalition, Sexual Assault Voices of Edmonton (SAVE), are relaunching a provocative and bold campaign that goes after those who commit sexual assault, rather than the victim.

The "Don't Be That Guy" campaign was first unveiled in 2010 and targeted alcohol-related assaults. The campaign has now expanded to include sexual assault of all types, including same-sex assault.

One of the newly designed posters shows two men sitting on a bed with one man's hand of the chest of the other. The text below reads "It's not sex...when he changes his mind."

The police seemed/seem to think that the campaigns helped/help, so would you argue that that is merely an ideological sort of thing (rhetorical persuasion), and that they weren't/aren't supporting it because it seemed to genuinely help, but instead, were/are supporting it just because they had/have been persuaded to by feminists and their anti-male rhetoric?

As I said, I don't support the sex-specificity of those campaigns, but it never hurts to consider the other side of the argument on occasion (playing Devil's Advocate can sometimes lead to interesting discussion :)).

Edit: Additionally, do you believe that deterrents (such as signs, or threats of punishment, or social campaigns against certain violent acts) have no effect on the rates of violent crime (which are continuously dropping at a steady pace, according to most/all statistics that I'm aware of) at all; or, do you believe that deterrents are only effective in some cases (but, just not when it comes to these male-specific anti-rape campaigns)?

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Holy shit. Acquaintance rape prevention for men/women.

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4) When you DO say Yes, be prepared for the consequences. Changing your mind the next day after the event is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

Title	Holy shit. Acquaintance rape prevention for men/women.
Author	DeliBelly
Upvotes	160
Comments	179
Date	March 2, 2014 5:16 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1zcuhi/holy_shit_acquaintance_rape_prevention_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/holy-shit-acquaintance-rape-prevention-for.1003243 https://theredarchive.com/post/1003243