What are some good arguments supporting or against “presuming guilty until proven innocent”?

63daddy · 2022-08-27T19:06:31+00:00

Why a presumption of innocence is important. (U.S. context)

Liberty: Liberty or freedom is fundamental to American ideology, so we don’t deny people their liberties based on unproven accusations. Similarly, justice is a hallmark of a civilized society. A society that presumes guilt is not a just society.
It’s hard to prove a negative. It’s easy for an accuser to make an accusation that’s hard to disprove. Therefore, the burden of proof should rest on the accuser or prosecution, they are the party asserting an event occurred. This isn’t unique to criminal accusations, the burden of proof typically lies on the person making an assertion.
Abuse. This is precisely why we see MeToo and other such movements trying to avoid due process and have people presumed guilty. Look how Amber Heard successfully was able to deny Depp movie roles by presuming his guilt.

The above said, to a degree we don’t and shouldn’t completely practice a presumption of innocent. We have standards under which the accused may be jailed awaiting trial, a trial in which they may be proven innocent. In such cases, based on the initial evidence we are essentially assuming guilt until our judicial system rules on the matter.

SecondEldenLord · 2022-08-27T19:59:48+00:00

Accusations are not proof. Anybody can lie out of malice, including women and even about horrible things like rape. Imagine if guilty until proven innocent was a thing, everybody with a grudge on somebody would do this shit and then you would have to spend money on lawyers just to prove that someone had lied about you.

Punder_man · 2022-08-27T19:19:33+00:00

The issue here is.. what if the punishment for certain crimes is the death penalty?
In that situation if we assume the person accused is guilty until they prove their innocence then you are going to end up with A LOT of innocent people dying for crimes they never committed.

As it stands, Thanks to the #Metoo movement and #BelieveAllWomen, in the court of public opinion a man accused of rape is considered guilty until proven innocent (And even THEN there will be people who still think he's guilty anyway)

The problem here is, the social justice warriors see the legal system as working too slowly, so they take justice into their own hands and often, with only a single accusation alone they will hunt down the accused, dox them and will send e-mails to the accused boss pressuring them to fire the accused.

And this works.. Because a company cares more about its public image than the truth it will drop a man accused of rape / sexual assault like a rock.
It doesn't matter if no evidence has been presented to back up the claim, they don't want to risk the claim being correct.

2022-08-27T20:25:25+00:00

Easy, people lie. Period. So it's best to hold off judgement until you have the best picture of facts and reality (aka, truth) as you can obtain. Law or not, this is a general rule of just being fair in life in general. Don't pass judgement until you are certain, otherwise it's basically just prejudice.

pearl_harbour1941 · 2022-08-27T19:02:27+00:00

There is a VERY good reason why the default standard for justice has been "innocent until proven guilty" for 2000 years or more.

Accusations are not proof.

But the female mindset is convinced that rumor and innuendo must contain some truth, therefore it is better to assume guilt at first. This is essentially a danger-management strategy at work. Assume danger until proven otherwise.

So in a society where women's wishes are granted based on a whim, the 2000 year old default has been overturned, and we are asked to assume guilt until proven otherwise. It's female danger management strategy.

I say it's a female strategy because I know that the male strategy is almost 180 degrees to this. We assume safety unless proven otherwise. It's why we do "stupid" things. It's safe, until it's not.

Forcetobereckonedwit · 2022-08-27T19:46:39+00:00

Hey Neonfizzy! I hereby accuse you of raping me and forcing me at gunpoint to withdraw cash from an ATM and give it to you!

Now, think about "guilty until proven innocent". Think about it while you have to spend untold resources and time telling the world that I'm lying. Think about it while you hire a lawyer and go to court to prove your innocence.

🥳😘🤪🤪🤪🤪

g1455ofwater · 2022-08-27T19:21:31+00:00

Completely ridiculous premise with an example that tries to make men look bad=troll post.

TAPriceCTR · 2022-08-27T23:15:41+00:00

the crime is so awful that you gotta punish someone, anyone.

it is far more important that we get our vengeance than maintain civilization.

presuming the accused innocent might embarrass the accuser.

well, it is something the accused would do if they had the chance so they might as well be guilty.

feminism.

.

those arguments against the presumption of innocence all seem equally "good" to me.

my ex told stories of marital rape to manipulate her cyber boyfriends. 3 months after the last time we had sex, 1 hour after I caught her having cybersex with #2, and 1 week before running away with #3, she tried seducing me for the first time in 6 years to "show just how committed to this marriage I really am". Had I fallen for it, she would have taken her marital rape accusations to the cops, how do you propose I might have proven my innocence?

jsdavis777 · 2022-08-27T22:19:23+00:00

Here is a great argument against it.

A girl you don't even know exists can claim you raped her.

If "presuming guilty until PROVEN innocent" then how can you PROVE your innocence?
Therefore it makes more sense to prosecute based on evidence of a crime, not baseless claims.....however in the case of a rape with zero found evidence (no bruises, semen, dna etc), an investigation is ok, but the suspect should receive good compensation if their time and mental energy is wasted by a false-rape accusation investigation

Surv1ver · 2022-08-27T23:39:35+00:00

Innocent till proven guilty is a human right.

CypherAus · 2022-08-27T23:58:14+00:00

In our adversarial court system there is an old maxim... Better 10 guilty go free than one innocent be convicted. This is why we have to prove guild beyond reasonable doubt.

peter_venture · 2022-08-28T00:00:22+00:00

The line that says 'Even though, the defendant admits himself guilty.' is confusing to me, since I haven't seen this stated anywhere. I checked just now, but still don't see it. Am I missing something?

321_hex_DS · 2022-08-28T01:21:12+00:00

The johnny depp trial.

DouglasMilnes · 2022-08-28T02:28:42+00:00

If you don't like the idea of me (a random person you do not know) making you guilty of something just because I chose to do so, then do not ever think that any system other than you remaining innocent unless proven guilty could be good.

If you really think my accusation is enough, then I accuse you of breaking every law in existence - and by your standards, that means you should ask to be locked up and kept away from decent society.

You see, scrapping the principle of being innocent unless proven guilty sounds great to someone with a narrow mind who wants it applied to other people. It sounds very different when it gets personal.

kiadragon · 2022-08-28T01:03:07+00:00

The Law in many countries.

RowanSomewhere · 2022-08-28T06:22:17+00:00

Okay, I'll give you two ways a legal system can function.

You're a child rapist. Prove that you've never raped a child. You're guilty unless you can do that. How would you even go about it?
You're a child rapist, and now I have to prove that you are beyond any reasonable doubt to punish you.

Get the picture?

solar-garlic1776 · 2022-08-28T13:57:04+00:00

Presuming Guilt, this requires the person/persons being accused to prove a negative meaning prove that they did not commit a crime.

It is rather difficult to prove that you didn't commit a crime rather than defending against accusations when evidence is presented.

The idea of innocent until proven guilty puts the burden of PROVING a crime was committed on the state.

More so, presuming guilt (now a days) is with little to no actual evidence only an accusation. If we start from this point, how fair of a trail would you receive?

tenchineuro · 2022-08-28T22:15:57+00:00

I've seen this question pop-up in the AskFeminist reddit, relating to OP's dad that believing that a member of the Buffalo Bills (American Football team) should not accused of gang rape against a minor, without being proven guilty. Even though, the defendant admits himself guilty.

The police have been successful at forcing innocent people to confess. So I'd not take a confession at face value.

This is the first I've heard of this case and I'm not making any claims about it. My point is about the Police and nothing more.

Title	What are some good arguments supporting or against “presuming guilty until proven innocent”?
Author	NeonFizzyXD13
Upvotes	22
Comments	45
Date	August 27, 2022 6:39 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/wza49j/what_are_some_good_arguments_supporting_or/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-are-some-good-arguments-supporting-or-against.1129072 https://theredarchive.com/post/1129072

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