What does this subreddit mean by "Equality", and how can it be achieved given the hard facts of biology?

luxury_banana · 2013-02-17T03:21:15+00:00

The only "equality" possible is what is called equality of opportunity--

Everyone plays by the same rules. Everyone is judged by the same standards. Everyone subject to the same laws, with the same penalties. This does not necessarily produce the same outcomes in life.

Feminists however want equality of outcome. For example they seem to think women should be paid the same amount as a man for working less dangerous, less demanding jobs for less hours. Feminists want the government under their watchful eye to decide the winners and losers in life.

jolly_mcfats · 2013-02-17T04:25:38+00:00

Equal treatment under law. Equal opportunity.

CosmicKeys · 2013-02-17T08:32:05+00:00

Others have discussed equality of opportunity, but let me mention about society.

In society we have gender roles for men and women that mirror what evolution gave us. However, these gender roles also have social reinforcements that we all grow up with. Also it's important to note that obviously not everyone fits into their assigned gender role.

So I would say one important aim is to would be to remove social constrictions on gender roles where they are unreasonably enforced by society. We should think of men more as nurturers, fathers and sexy sex objects, and women more as leaders, thinkers and unfortunately for them, people capable of extreme violence. When the stereotypes are removed, people are free to act on their biology, we are closer to true freedom to be who we feel we are, and there is less discrimination against people going against social norms because the norms are widespread.

EDIT: Also, let me say the law is simply the highest use of "force" to provoke social change. A poster on a wall or a woman deciding to open a door for a man to further equality is also provoking social change. It's a spectrum, obviously we should draw the line depending on the amount of discrimination occurring. Libertarians see the government as a hard line, liberals general don't mind government being included in the solution.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-02-17T06:46:27+00:00

There are two constituents to "equality" here.

1) Legal Equality, i.e. equal treatment under the law. 2) Cultural Equality, i.e. we want civil society in general to hold men and women to the same moral standards and to treat men and women as equally human.

Funcuz · 2013-02-17T12:46:34+00:00

Everybody seems to have given a pretty concise summary of what we mean when we say we want equality. I guess the big difference between us and feminists is that we actually know what the word means.

With that out of the way however , I don't think there are many MRAs who want to have any control over a woman's body. Actually , as a matter of precision , you can't really call yourself an MRA if you want to force women to abort babies. Note , nevertheless , that demanding some say in whether a woman can abort our unborn children is a matter of great importance to us. Not because we're interested in telling women what to do but something that most people seem to forget is that NOT being allowed to abort a child is not the same thing as telling a woman what to do with her own body despite what we've all been told. Plain old biology takes care of that argument all by itself.

Before I get too distracted with that though , let me just get something straight for you. I don't care about the abortion issue. I'm not trying to push one side or the other. While I don't personally approve of it , it has nothing to do with religion or upbringing. I simply see it the same way I see the death penalty. There is just too vast a gray area to make an ethically safe decision. That's my position and where I'm coming from.

Now , why does any of this matter ? Because as it stands right now , men have absolutely no reproductive rights. We can't even whack off lest some crazy chick comes along and uses the fruit of our labors to impregnate herself and then claim child support (which the courts have seen to it that she'll get) While certainly rare to the point of absurdity , such things DO happen and they all say the same thing about how men are viewed by the courts ... walking wallets and nothing more.

So , a woman can choose to abort a fetus/baby/who-gives-a-fuck-about-semantics without asking for her partner's input. Okay , fair enough I guess. So why can't men do the same thing ? With the exception of physiological danger due to pregnancy , there's absolutely no argument that can be made against men being able to legally abort their responsibilities that isn't already granted to women seeking abortions. For example , if the problem is that she's too young to raise a child , why doesn't that apply for him as well ? No money ? Not stable ? Medical conditions that would impede one's ability to raise a child ? What argument is there that isn't equally applicable ?

There's only one and it's rare enough thanks to modern medicine that we don't really have to worry about it skewing things too badly. In any case , what we have here is a major double standard. She can abort the kid against my wishes. She can keep the kid against my wishes. She can basically do anything she wants with the kid and what I think about any of it just doesn't matter one bit in the eyes of neither the law nor society in general.

So , that's just one example of an area that needs a serious infusion of equality. There are plenty of rebuttals and they all start with the words "but" or "what if...?" while conspicuously failing to address the main thrust of the argument for men being able to financially abort children they don't want. At the very least , courts should recognize that if they're going to force men to pay for children , their rights to see those children should be just as strongly enforced as those in regards the females.

TiberiusBostwick · 2013-02-17T13:01:16+00:00

Do we mean that the same actions will carry the same penalties under law for both sexes?

That's one of the goals, but not the focus.

Or that law will eliminate all societal gender roles by force?

This is impossible and should not even be attempted.

Is there even a way to do the former without doing the latter?

Of course there is, it's frightfully fucking easy. Just hold people accountable for their actions regardless of any unreasonable external factor. Unreasonable factors include sex, race, and religion among others.
Just in the last month alone we've had a good number of posts detailing instances where women get a much much lighter sentence than men for the exact same crime.

Things like this need to stop.

DinosBiggestFan · 2013-02-17T05:50:37+00:00

Equality of opportunity, equality in government funding, equality in the eyes of the law.

THAT IS WHAT ANTI-FEMINISM LOOKS LIKE.

sibqm_lmvm · 2013-02-17T15:27:50+00:00

I want equality In the eyes of the law, and equal opportunity. What does that mean?

To me, legal equality means that men and women get the same sentences for the same exact crime. It means that men and women both have legitimate ways to give up their parental rights (currently, only women do). Both genders will have laws protecting their bodies from bullshit mutilation (currently, only women do). Just some examples.

Equal opportunity: everyone should have the same chance to do things. Boys and girls can try and join Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, respectively, without being turned away immediately your their gender (I'm just kind of hoping that. Those groups can become on co-Ed group). Everyone should have the option to fight on the front lines if they want to. It shouldn't be just standard for one gender.

double-happiness · 2013-02-17T15:38:05+00:00

One basis for equality in human society is equal ability - one could argue that anything a white person can do, a black person can do just as well. Likewise for disability - anything an 'able-bodied' person can do, a disabled person can potentially do, especially with the benefit of technology and assistance from carers, etc.

However, when one tries to apply this standard to men and women it fails immediately. Only a woman can bear and give birth to a child, this is something that men are not capable of nor are they likely to become capable of childbirth in the future. Only a man can impregnate a woman, and again this state of affairs is not likely to be something that could be changed, even if we wanted to.

Talking about male and female equality actually does women a disservice to some extent, as it glosses over the massive reproductive inequalities that exist between the sexes. Women are much more limited in their reproductive potential - 6-9 children is the upper limit for most, while men have no such practical limits, and have been known to father dozens or even hundreds of offspring. At the same time, nearly all of the burden of physical risk and harm, up to and including death, is placed on the female by biology. Males have far less to lose through the sexual act. Most of the consequences of male sexual behaviour are social not physical - for example the so-called 'shotgun wedding'.

I agree there should be equality of opportunity as far as possible. It's still a fact that no amount of legislation or medical science is ever likely to give males the opportunity to give birth, and the burden of reproduction is likely to remain principally on females throughout the natural world.

rightsbot · 2013-02-17T01:42:16+00:00

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2013-02-17T08:49:25+00:00

It is for equality in law. Society does not create gender roles either, so there is not much that can be done about them. And the gender roles biology sets forth are not unequal per se, they are just different.

JamesRyder · 2013-02-17T17:32:29+00:00

Equality of opportunities not equality of outcome.

DougDante · 2013-02-17T05:09:00+00:00

Good question.

Title	What does this subreddit mean by "Equality", and how can it be achieved given the hard facts of biology?
Author	CaptainDancyPants
Upvotes	21
Comments	45
Date	February 17, 2013 1:40 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/18o312/what-does-this-subreddit-mean-by-equality-and-how-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-does-this-subreddit-mean-by-equality-and-how.1606420 https://theredarchive.com/post/1606420

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