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When Equal isn’t good enough. Judge rules on U.S. Soccer pay issue noting that women’s national team rejected offer to be paid under the same pay-for-play model as the men, instead opting for more guaranteed money.

benderXX

May 2, 2020
1409 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/05/01/judge-rules-against-us-womens-national-soccer-team-equal-pay-lawsuit/
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Post Information
Title When Equal isn’t good enough. Judge rules on U.S. Soccer pay issue noting that women’s national team rejected offer to be paid under the same pay-for-play model as the men, instead opting for more guaranteed money.
Author

benderXX

Upvotes 1409
Comments 85
Date May 2, 2020 11:37 AM UTC
(6 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gc51c0/when_equal_isnt_good_enough_judge_rules_on_us/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-equal-isnt-good-enough-judge-rules-on-us.853543
https://theredarchive.com/post/853543
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Comments

[–]FastFourierTerraform 329 points330 points331 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I wonder if Megan Rapinoe sues the casino for gender discrimination when she decides not to play roulette, but then when black comes up she totally would have picked black. After all, some men chose black and won money. (Casually ignoring the men who bet red, as all feminists do).

[–]RyansPutter 74 points75 points76 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention the fact that the women also get benefits, whereas the men only get paid. All of the men play for the MLS or a European league, so they opted just to get paid. The women don't have big contracts with leagues, so they opted for more stability.

[–]Deathbysugar2020 30 points31 points32 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Directly from the article:

The men’s team is paid for individual performances in a pay-for-play model, while the women opted for a pay structure that includes more security in the form of negotiated annual salaries, maternity and child-care benefits, and severance pay when they are no longer on the team.

[–]NulloK 103 points104 points105 points 6 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

[–]tbl44 75 points76 points77 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Imagine the ridicule the US Men's team would receive if they lost to a bunch of girls under 15, the media would tear them to shreds.

[–]TesticleCanced 29 points30 points31 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well that wouldn’t happen. I don’t think anybody can understand this unless you play soccer but, An average boys U12 team would beat a girls u15 team.

[+]jimbo_kun -15 points-14 points-13 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

No, I don’t think that’s true.

Girls are just as good or better up to U12 or so.

Then for some odd reason around 13 that all changes...

EDIT: I know this is a late edit, but I seriously needed to include the part about puberty and testosterone? That wasn't clear from the "..."?

[–]TesticleCanced 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s called puberty and actually no girls aren’t even as good in the U12 and before stage

[–]jimbo_kun 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I coached a school team of mixed middle school kids, and up through 7th grade, some of the girls were definitely comparable to the most athletic boys.

At 13, many of the boys suddenly grew a head taller and there's no comparison from that point forward.

[–]consultum_ultimum -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It was a practice match, they weren't being competitive. The girls team was just practicing and the boys team was getting a challenge. They play a lot of practice matches and win the vast majority. It would have been taken seriously if the girls lost against them in a real competition.

[–]HungryHornyHigh 16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha that's so embarrassing. I'm going to bring this up every time i hear something stupid about inequality

[+]MaggieNoodle -38 points-37 points-36 points 6 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

It's important to note that friendlies are realllllyyy not indicative of a teams actual performance, especially in the run up to an actual competition. The women's team would for sure beat a u-15 men's academy team in an actual competitive, prepared match.

[–]The_Whorror_Show 25 points26 points27 points 6 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Lol severe doubt. Why do you hate men so much? Who hurt you?

If the women get to prepare, the 15 year olds get to prepare too.

[+]rborens1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

No he's right. It was a friendly and would be kinda messed up if the women's team played as hard as they could considering those boys probably look up to them.

[–]__pulsar 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

He's dead wrong. You're in denial about how wide the gap is between men and women when it comes to athletics. This is far from the only instance of professional women's teams losing to high school men's teams. It's happened a bunch of times and if you don't think those professional female athletes wanted to win those games you're crazy.

And the whole "going easy on them" theory just doesn't work when the woman lose 1-7 in soccer

[–]MaggieNoodle -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Professional women are going to beat the 15 and unders, some will be faster and taller but at that age not most of them and in soccer it's a bit more equalized.

I'm not sure if you've ever watched the women's team play but they are incredibly good, the best in the world at their positions. They'd be against some players with a physical advantage but none comparable in skill.

And "going easy on them", it's a friendly in soccer. By definition you go easy, you rotate players, built fitness and avoid injury. The best players probably played quarter time in this match since they're worried that a 14 year old is going to end their career early with a bad tackle.

[+]rborens1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh theres definitely a huge gap between men and women in athletics. Hence why putting trans people in womens sports is fucked up. Men are biologically more athletically inclined, sure, but soccer is mostly about skill. I don't know much about what happened because its not really a mens rights issue, but as far as I know, a national team regardless of gender is gonna play better than an academy team. Except for any decent American football team.

[–]__pulsar 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't know much about what happened because its not really a mens rights issue, but as far as I know, a national team regardless of gender is gonna play better than an academy team. Except for any decent American football team.

Then why are you commenting on the subject as if you know about it?

The women's team played a boys team comprised of the best u15 boys. This wasn't some random group of high school kids. Once boys go through puberty they have the advantage over adult women. Does that mean that the women's national team couldn't beat any boys u15 teams? No. They would win plenty of games against boys that age, but they won't win against the best of them. In fact, they'll get smoked as we've seen time and again.

[–]MaggieNoodle 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Then why are you commenting on the subject as if you know about it?

The irony in this!

This is FC Dallas's academy, one of the better MLS academies in the country, but this u-15 group is definitely not the best available, they are almost all from Texas and scouted from local schools. They also still go to school, so, like, literally high schoolers.

The women's team had an international tournament coming up, so they played friendlies to prepare for it since that's what you do in soccer. It's a training match, designed to get minutes and build some fitness, you don't play 100% and you don't play to win. The best women probably played like a quarter of the match at best in order to avoid getting injured by a 14 year old excited to tell his friends that he tackled the best women's player in the world.

Not fully developed early teenagers vs full women professionals would lose in an actual competitive match, the skillgap would be astronomical. Physicality is not everything in soccer, stamina is the most important thing besides height and speed and Dallas's current u15 roster has a max height of like 5'7, around the height of most pro women defenders.

[–]__pulsar 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not fully developed early teenagers vs full women professionals would lose in an actual competitive match, the skillgap would be astronomical. Physicality is not everything in soccer, stamina is the most important thing besides height and speed and Dallas's current u15 roster has a max height of like 5'7, around the height of most pro women defenders.

You're delusional. I'm not sure what else to say. Profesional women's teams have repeatedly lost to teenage boys teams in soccer, rugby, etc. Can you find me some examples where the women's team actually won one of those games? Or you think it's just a coincidence that the women always lose?

If the skill gap is "astronomical" then wouldn't the female team backups still be better than the u15 boys?

The bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about, and have likely never played soccer or any other sport at a high level.

[–]MaggieNoodle 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about, and have likely never played soccer or any other sport at a high level.

Okay, it's clear I can't shove this past your skull, this is a friendly, and not even that it was like a pr stunt. It's not my fault you don't understand how this sport works, I've tried to explain this to you. The results don't matter, it's a training session.

And in other sports? Completely irrelevant, rugby is a totally different skill set, much more reliant on physicality.

[–]rborens1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Have a silver. Explained it way better than I could.

[–]The_Whorror_Show 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Again, severe doubt.

You worked with kids before? I have. The teen girls are happy to smash little 12 year olds in football, I highly doubt the women's professional team were not trying their best so as not to get embarrassed.

If you want further evidence, Serena Williams played a guy out of the top 100 I think, a guy that hasn't trained, was old, smoking and half dying, and she hot her ass beat by him. This is stems on her steroids prime.

Edit : I'm sorry for the "who hurt you?" comments. I didn't realise I was talking to a bunch of guys, but women have that as their go to response to shut conversation down, so I use it on women and Simps.

[+]rborens1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

You're comparing this with an anecdotal issue of teen girls playing football and an issue with a different person in a different sport.

What you're describing isn't even a men's rights issue. You're just trying to claim that men are superior to women, which is wrong. We aren't r/pinkpillfeminism so don't act like them.

[–]The_Whorror_Show 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Who hurt you?

I'm sorry, I just don't take bullshit about women seriously. Every man literally falling over to protect women's feelings while they take men to court for equal pay but not equal work.

[–]Feeling-Issue 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is undeniable that men are physically superior to women in every way.

[–]rborens-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Who hurt you?

I'm not the one with the superiority complex, and don't change the subject. You were the one going on about the women's team playing 100% in a friendly and still losing. They would gain nothing by playing 100%, especially because it was a warm up. And their best players likely weren't playing much at all to avoid a potential injury. I agree with you about the court case, but don't be disingenuous.

[+]MaggieNoodle -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol why do I hate men so much.... I'm a man, bro.

It's not my fault this sub doesn't understand this sport.

[–]The_Whorror_Show 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol we're in a culture war with women. I won't budge one inch or admit fault with women for anything. They tried to play some 15 year olds, they tried their best and they still fucked up. Serena on steroids couldn't beat a sub par below 100 ranked man.

[–]MaggieNoodle 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you're on the wrong sub, that's not what we're about here.

[–]The_Whorror_Show -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I get that, that's why I don't post here. This thread came up on the front page though. I'm not here to bash women, but I'm not here to blindly make up shit about misandrists.

Only a misandrist c unit could possibly ask for the same pay as a man while literally doing zero of the work the men have done.

[–]MaggieNoodle 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not here to bash women

...maybe you want to read the comments you've already posted here?

Only a misandrist c unit could possibly ask for the same pay as a man while literally doing zero of the work the men have done.

They're far more successful than the men, they literally do more work than them. The women won the world cup, the men didn't even qualify. They then ask "why is our pay so much less when we are 100x better than the men" and the judge says "because a long time ago your representatives decided to take steady cash and benefits in lieu of money for performances".

There could be a case made for unequal compensation in UEFA tournaments and in leagues, but then again way more people watch men's than women's so it makes sense that the payouts are different.

[+]uprootsockman -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There's no reason for them to be playing their hardest, the article literally quotes a team member saying they're just trying to get some time on the field in preparation for a game.

[–]The_Whorror_Show 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't get why you hate men that much. Who hurt you?

[–]jsu718 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They are already getting paid a larger percentage of the revenue. If they had truly equal pay, they would get even less.

[–]jeff_the_nurse 134 points135 points136 points 6 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Translation: those who bring in less to a business will not make as much as those who bring in more.

[–]FastFourierTerraform 235 points236 points237 points 6 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link

No, that's not even it at all. Frankly, the USWNT is probably a more valuable asset now in terms of being recognizable. Can you even name a player on the USMNT?

No, this is about the women being given a choice between option A (paid for the games you play) or option B (the deluxe option with guaranteed salary, childcare, and severance, but lower game bonuses). They took B and the men took A. Now they're blaming US Soccer for the fact that option A would have been more lucrative in light of their subsequent performance.

This is the legal equivalent of suing your employer for underpaying you when you asked for cash in lieu of stock options and then later the stock took off.

[–]jostler57 78 points79 points80 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That's an amazingly good analogy! Well said.

[–]iResistBS 49 points50 points51 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Agreed, except nobody knows the female players. Only the 2 or 3 mouthy ones.

Take your pick for the men, these are the same ones you see each and every year. Way more recognizable, but less drama so less media is all at the moment.

[–]RyansPutter 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I remember Brandi Chastain. Only because she celebrated the 1999 USWNT World Cup victory by taking her shirt off.

[–]Fredfredfred777 39 points40 points41 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

True, we know Megan Rapinoe for being mouthy, Alex Morgan because she's pretty, and Hope Solo because we've seen her bum hole. I can't name any others.

[–]Bascome 19 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I know Hope Solo for her domestic violence arrests.

[–]McFeely_Smackup 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes you regret googling the reference

[–]MaggieNoodle 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For anyone who follows the sport they're well known as top in the world in their positions, besides Solo who is retired. She's a pretty shitty person, however she did completely change the women's goalkeeping game.

[–]Taterz11 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

lol

[–]akula_dog 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The one married to a football player that are always doing nude photo shoots together.

[–]iResistBS 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The vocal minority.

[–]Decent_Priority 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For those looking lol... Hope solo bumhole and pussy link

[–]fulanomengano 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I only heard about the goalie and that's only because she was charged for assault against family members.

[–]Not__original 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So basically, this is no different than that actor from the original star wars who chose up front money rather than $ from profits/licensing/etc...?

[–]Onithyr 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Never take a percentage profit deal from Hollywood.

[–]Onithyr 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This reminds me of the story about a certain author who sold the rights to make his book into a video game series for "$9,350 cash up front, I don't want percentage royalties because it's going to fail anyway".

[+]rborens1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Was this the witcher?

[–]Onithyr 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

yep

[–]hendrixski 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm reading the series now. He still gets royalties from the books and TV shows, right?

[–]Onithyr 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, ironically despite his complaints and the "bad deal" (that he demanded at the time) the promotion of his series that the video game provided ended making him far more wealthy than he would have been without its existence.

[–]jimbo_kun 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They took B, and earned more than the men anyway!

[–]Profanegaming 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can’t name a player in either soccer team because soccer.

[–]AnmolSethi 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Christian Pulisic.

But then he plays for Chelsea FC, London. 😂

[–]MordecaiTMM 55 points56 points57 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Male soccer players make next to nothing, and the female team cost their owners $1m the year they Won, getting paid entirely out of pocket and not profits.

They could all be naked, and people would stop tuning in to the novelty sooner or later.

[–]turn20left 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn't

[–]andejoh 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There was a women's nude wrestling federation like 20 years ago. I think it was Carmen Elektra who founded it or maybe was just a spokes person. It didn't survive.

Yeah novelty, but there were feminists who said stupid things like people will stop watching the NFL if they got rid of the cheerleaders. I pointed out that like 6 teams already did.

It's that whole porn opportunity cost. I could watch decent looking women play soccer nude or really hot lesbian action.

[–]MordecaiTMM 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ultimate surrender is girls wrestling naked with sexual acts allowed for points. It's like an hour long, loser submits to the winner, and it's fun like 2 times put of the 156 or whatever they are on..

Have your nude soccer with milfs at full sprint, I'll keep working on the Brazilians playing volleyball naked..

[–]a_posh_trophy 20 points21 points22 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This is the equivalent of an extra asking to get the same pay as Bad Pitt because they had a few scenes with him in the same film.

[–]ChaosOpen 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I'd say it's more like demanding Brad Pitt's salary when you star in a small indie film. Whether you're a better actor or not doesn't factor in, he plays in films that gross hundreds of millions, your indie film is lucky to pull in a few thousand. He makes more money for his boss, thus he gets paid more.

[–]wicknest 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the analogy

[–]jimbo_kun 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, the women were paid more.

[–]a_posh_trophy 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They were paid more in comparative terms, yes. Men get paid more in general because they pull a larger audience and the men's sport is just naturally more attractive, always has been.

While it's good to see women's football becoming ever more popular, the pay should always be relative to attraction and generated income. And on this occasion, the judge ruled correctly. So when if women's football overtakes men's in popularity, then by all means contest the pay.

[–]asdf333aza 16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I not familiar with soccer, but I like to think of it as them being in two different leagues. The males get better pay because they are the best at their sport. Their level of athleticism is higher. As such they probably bring in more revenue and viewers. The females are the best for females. The males are the best overall and top of the species. Like I said, I don't know much about soccer. However, if you take a men's NBA team and put it against a WNBA team, the NBA team would stomp them. I assume similar results would come from an USMNT vs a USWNT. There's a huge difference in being the best girl versus just being the best. And being the best overall is going to bring in more business and earn more money than just being the best females.

[–]MaggieNoodle 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well them choosing the money now instead of dividends later is actually the correct answer, but the US women's team is actually far more lucrative than the men's, they are way more successful.

[–]cld8 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They may be successful but that doesn't mean they are lucrative.

[–]MaggieNoodle 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It just keeps coming. The women generate more cash than the men. The women's jersey is Nikes best seller of all time for a single season. 22% more people in the US watched the women's final than the men's.

[–]I_stole_this_phone 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Shocking discovery everyone. Men like watching men play sports and women like watching men play sports. I watch women sports when i know a player personally.

[–]BN91 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do they seriously not see that it's not about gender? Or are they choosing to act like they dont understand that?

[–]jl05419 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Football as all sports is just a show, the better the show the more you get paid. Just see how big is the diference on salari between messi or ronaldo to any less famous football player. At the end it doesn't matter how many hour you train every day it only matters how many people will pay to see you playing. Taking in count than in sports men usually(almost allways) have a higher level people will just go and see them because is more entretaining. I can understand to some extend(the league makes enough to pay it)complaining about been payed less that the minimum wage but all above that you have to earn it.

[–]Taterz11 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

true

[+]rborens1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Anyone have the text so I don't need to support the wapo?

[–]lesbefriendly 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

https://archive.is/YBKb3

[–]rborens 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The men’s team is paid for individual performances in a pay-for-play model, while the women opted for a pay structure that includes more security in the form of negotiated annual salaries, maternity and child-care benefits, and severance pay when they are no longer on the team.

If they want any sort of change, they should opt out of their salary, child care benefits, maternity, severence, etc. This is pretty much an apples-to-oranges debate. If they'd like "equal pay" then switch to the men's form of compensation and then we can talk about being paid relative to the amount of cash they bring in.

[–]wave_327 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you were itching to virtue signal about you being vaguely partisan, weren't you

could have just said, "oh wapo has a paywall, pls help" but noooooo

[–]rabel111 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like a good logical decision. How long until they find a democrat superior court willing to overturn logic and law for the sake of feminist approval.

[–]MordecaiTMM 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They negotiated their own pay and then cried after they won because they should have been paid better the whole time somehow..

With any luck, this is the end of women's soccer..

[–]ChaosOpen 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Anyone have a link to the article that doesn't require a paid subscription to read?

[–]FerNigel 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You don’t need one. Literally just read it myself with no subscription.

[–]AgentOrangeMRA 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Only because they give you a couple freebies before asking you to subscribe and blocking access to the articles.

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