Women's Studies - The Truth [pic]

[+]hoffa_lives 17 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Please don't link directly to a chan. The image will be 404'd within a day. Try http://imgur.com/ .

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I'm with you that bashing women as a whole isn't good. Indeed, any progressive gender theory must of course involve both sexes.

That said, bashing feminism is not the same as bashing women. Feminism is a defunct discipline academically and logically, not just ideologically. It frames the entire analysis and discussion of gender issues in terms of an oversimplified narrative that is completely divorced from reality, and does not incorporate the findings of other disciplines...Darwinism has a very well-known patriarchal bias.

Now the WBB (Women Being Bad) stuff is dangerous, I agree, but I've come to view it as necessary, because of the stereotype of men as the font of all things evil. It's important to point out that women kill and rape children too. It's important because it frames the problem in terms of society vs. lunatics instead of society vs. men, and this is necessary because it has to be SAFE for men to be involved in raising children.

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[–]Kuonji 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In the mainstream, an attack on feminism is seen as an attack on women.

I'm sorry that some people feel that way. It's a shame that people believe feminism is women and women are feminism. They are very separate, and the fact that people link them explicitly like this is one of the biggest obstacles with overcoming the problems that feminism has introduced.

Men's Rights needs to avoid getting into "us vs them", a scenario that just ends up with the extremists on both sides screaming at each other.

While that is a great idea in concept, in reality it doesn't work super great. Why? Because modern feminism and MRA's are wildly different in what they are trying to accomplish and the strength behind their goals

Feminism has a monumental amount of push behind them and for nearly every issue that MRAs feel passionate about, there is sure to be the feminism behemoth interfering in one way or another with it. That is not even close to the same obstacle (if there really are any) to modern feminists and the issues that they take up.

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[–]Crio3mo -4 points-3 points-2 points 17 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. Feminism is about equality. While there may be some radical feminists out there who take things too far, they don't represent what feminism is. (and they should be called out by feminists and non-feminists alike when they go overboard)

Sure, women have many more equalities than they did even a few decades ago, but there are still valid issues to address and feminism is still important. As far as men losing their rights, you must be careful to not confuse this with men losing their privilege. I'm not saying that "equality" isn't sometimes skewed in the woman's favor (especially with things like parental custody), but that if we want equality, we do have to concede that some of our privileges must go (as should women - chivalry, etc.). This isn't a bad thing as everyone benefits from gender equality.

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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is about equality.

Feminism is about equality like Masculism is about equality. First, it isn't. Second, if it really is, then that sure is a fucked up moniker for a movement supposed to be gender-neutral.

While there may be some radical feminists out there who take things too far, they don't represent what feminism is.

I'm an atheist, and that is the exact same thing I hear from pretty much every believer out there, regarding their own spiritual inclination. While you try to define what true feminism is to me, another true feminist is giving me a contradicting definition of their own notion of true feminism. So don't even bother going down that route.

(and they should be called out by feminists and non-feminists alike when they go overboard)

Never seen that happen, by the way. Specially not when feminists who disagree amongst themselves are debating someone exposing the male side of the coin. In that case they can tag-team pretty efficiently and set their differences aside if it means opposing a common "enemy".

[–]Kuonji 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gareth321 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They say for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. Feminism was a reaction against a male-dominated society. This was natural, and required for an equal and modern society. Once feminism achieved what we perceive as equality, we think the movement should have simply ceased to exist. Instead, it's still carrying just as much momentum without real cause. This means the advocates are focussing on smaller and pettier goals; worse, perceived injustices which are nothing of the sort.

Enter the men's rights movement. In response to shrinking male rights and further marginalising of our worth in society, we are a natural reaction to feminism. This is the origin of the movement. When you say we bash feminism, we do so because we perceive feminism to be removing rights from us. We do so because it illustrates the hypocrisy. And we do so because not enough men have woken up the poor state of "equality" at present.

[–]Crio3mo 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Gareth321 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kloo2yoo 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

If feminism is a male's biggest concern, then they aren't interested in equality, they're interested in not losing their male privilege.

That's worth tackling. is it mens' privilege to:

bear the burden of income for family support?
accept that they will be presumed guilty of any given accusation of sexual misconduct?
Accept that they will be presumed to have "wanted it" when sexual conduct is directed their way?
Accept the higher burden of proof when attempting to prosecute a woman vs. a man for sexual misconduct, and any other form of misconduct?
Accept the fact that women are "allowed" to hit them, "playfully" but Men Must Not Hit Women?
giggle at the fact that most men on television are portrayed as dolts who wouldn't know to lift their head of of a pillow, except for the saving grace of the woman (whose affection is a pure gift and in no way deserved)?
go off to war?
face the higher burden of killing anything that needs to be killed (from icky spiders to charging beasts to streetfighters with guns)?

I really wish this subreddit would get its act in gear and stop the women bashing and move on to real issues.

submit what you like.

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[–]Crio3mo -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

List of Male Privelages. This particular list is similar to the White Privilege list that you may have been told to read in a class before.

There are also female privileges - which this subreddit should address. But denying the fact that males do have privilege is, well, stupid.

And for those too lazy to click, I'll post a few here from that list (which obviously isn't everything):

Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).
If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

EDIT: The point of this post was to simply demonstrate that male privilege does exist. You may not agree with everything on the list, but hopefully you will concede that male privilege does exist in certain areas. And women have privilege in others. Not looking for a long debate because my point is simple: It shouldn't be an us vs. them, men vs. women scenario. It should be about gender equality and that means that both sides have to concede that things must change. And both sides must get upset when gender equality is not standard, no matter who it is happening to.

[–]Kuonji 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Ok. That's an interesting list, and I won't say I completely disagree with it, but here is what you are not getting that must be completely understood:

Both sexes have advantages (what you are listing as privileges, whatever) and disadvantages in society because of their sex. Some things are easier for men, some things are easier for women. Without going into depth about why this is, let's just say that it is. I completely agree with this, however...

People use the term 'male privilege' infinitely times more than 'female privilege'. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard the latter term. You cannot simply say "Hey yeah, both sexes have privileges so don't stress when you hear the term 'male privilege' because women have privileges too." when only one of those terms is ever used to any degree.

I'm sure any of us could come up with lists ten miles long with every advantage that women have in today's society. In fact, I can guaran-fucking-tee you that given enough time and effort that our lists will always be longer and more realistic than an equivalent list that women or feminists may come up with for the advantages men have. No contest. None at all.

So I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to prove here. A list of advantages that men have in society is not the same as 'male privilege'. Every person I have ever encountered that has used that term has meant it as privileges than men have that clearly sets them as dominant/superior to women in our society, not lists of advantages/disadvantages.

[–]Crio3mo -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, why not make a list ten miles long then?

I do agree with you that the issue of female privilege needs to be addressed, too. But until people start making these sorts of lists and discussing them, it won't be addressed.

I've always taken "innate privagelage" to be anything that gives you an advantage for how you were born (gender, race, what country, etc.). These are generally the things you take for granted because they're not an issue for you, but they become an issue for you once you don't have them. Maybe you'd find some of the things on that list petty, but imagine how it'd be if every major religion had male leaders, male gods, male prophets, and mysogyny. It's not the most welcoming message. Yes, you can always find a less mainstream religion, but it doesn't change the fact that you live in a society where male religions dominate.

My point was that male privilege does exist. So does female privilege. No one should have privilege based on what their genitals look like.

[–]49rows 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]marktully 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

BSC got to a few of these, but I think he let too many points slide. Shit is just more complicated than feminists claim, which is the problem with feminism--it frames the analysis and discussion in terms that don't have fully reflect reality.

Remember that "privilege" means "private law," something artificial. So, for example, the ability to have babies wouldn't be a "female privilege" any more than the ability to pee standing up would be a "male privilege".

One. (Sociology without Economics) This will never change until uterine replicators are invented and perfected. The economics of sex will simply dictate that the gender with the greater associated risk will be viewed with disdain if they don't assign value to sex that is proportional to the risk. Of course with this greater risk comes increased agency in reproductive matters, but neither is that a "privilege".

Four. (Sociology without Linguistics) Actually the "man" part of the word is the human part, not the male or female part.

Traditionally, many writers have used man and words derived from it to designate any or all of the human race regardless of sex. In fact, this is the oldest use of the word. In Old English the principal sense of man was "a human," and the words wer and wyf (or wæpman and wifman) were used to refer to "a male human" and "a female human" respectively. (Dictionary.com)

Now obviously in the etymology, the wer part got dropped for males while the wif got retained for females. So if we want to make changes in a modern time for modern reasons, that's perfectly fine. But that doesn't make this some conspiracy, nor is it evidence of any special historical consideration given to males. Historically, of course, there were special considerations given to males, but this just isn't one of them, dammit.

All of this of course ignores the massive degree to which these words have successfully been changed. There's no such thing as a mailman or a chairman in 2009. Only postal workers and chairs or chairpeople.

Five. (Sociology without History) What sort of children don't have their father's name? Bastards. The father acknowledges and accepts the child as his, which is significant because, oh, right, it just might not be. This is the key bit behind all naming conventions--why if folks get divorced, the kids tend to keep their father's name even if their mother reverts to her maiden name... Now, who's that strange woman with those kids? Again, not a conspiracy, just a tradition from a time before paternity tests.

Six. (Sociology without Biology) Leadership requires certain characteristics, not the least of which is the ability (and far more importantly, the willingness) to take risks, sacrifice oneself, and lead an unstable, imbalanced lifestyle. Men will always be more willing to do this, partially because of testosterone, partially because of cultural pressure to do so. They'll also fail at it a lot more. Most CEOs are men, but so are most homeless people, and most suicides. The women who have the ability and the inclination to run with the big boys are not at a disadvantage: among people who have never married or had children, women make 117% of the money their male counterparts do. (US Census Bureau via Warren Farrell's Why Men Earn More)

Seven. (Sociology without Biology OR Economics) We can't just ignore millions of years of Darwinian programming. The male reptile brain will always be attracted to signs of fertility, like a .7 waist-to-hip ratio. The female reptile brain will always be attracted to men that can acquire more resources than she can. Seth Rogen-type lovable losers simply don't make the cut. The recession has sharpened this reality up a fair bit, and there's been some solid articles about it lately. Can we do something about our biological realities with culture? Absolutely, but ignoring them entirely will not work, which is why feminism's attempts to do so are a complete failure, and why you don't see any 16-year-old feminists. If you tell a girl, "No, you should love your body no matter what it looks like," she knows it's bullshit, and promptly makes with the bulimia. If you tell her, "Pounds mean nothing, dress sizes mean nothing. If you want to be attractive to straight men, you have to nail something close to a .7 waist-to-hip ratio. That's all." then she ditches the mirror for a measuring tape and a calculator, and then either hits the gym or stops worrying about it.

Your belief that an adversarial stance does more harm than good is to be applauded, and is absolutely correct.

However, an even-handed look at the world sees that there was a women's rights revolution, and there simply hasn't been a men's rights revolution. This is a glaring asymmetry, and it only stands to reason that it would yield glaring asymmetries in the realities of day to day life for both men and women.

EDIT: In the interests of being fair, there is some male privilege in the world today, in terms of education. Extremely selective schools are engaging in affirmative action to keep their gender ratios from becoming too lopsided. Guys have to have the grades and the scores to get in, but for girls, they have to have the grades, the scores, AND a "hook", like they're currently curing cancer or some jazz. If they didn't do this, the girls would stop coming, since they expect to find men on campus. Certain graduate programs (like education) are also overly female, so males applying to them have a greater chance of getting in. Why is this? Well, it's because the current education system is failing boys and young men. (Census.gov)

[–]BestServedCold 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Relevant and correct.
Wow, off to a bad start already. HUH!? Citation needed. ONE example would be fine. And let me just say, even if you come up with one, this is really a reach.
Nonsensical. Who asks for special protection from crime? But I will tell you this. Men are twice as likely to be the victims of violent crime. Women commit more domestic violence than men yet there are special shelters for victims of domestic violence where men are not allowed. Men who commit violent crimes do much longer prison sentences and males guilty of capital crimes are much more likely to be sentenced to death. These special interest crimes that your list is complaining about have become special interest becauser women complain about them so much. 41% of all rape accusations are false. False accusers are often not even charged with the misdemeanor of filing a false police report.
Wow. This list is bad. So what? I have an 80% chance of losing my kid in a custody court and women want to complain about petty bullshit like this? solution?
Valid if it was 1975. Totally invalid and irrelevant today.
Probably true but still irrelevant. Let's focus on issues that can actually be addressed by policy, by vote, by representation, by society. Don't like the way your gender is represented in your religion? Maybe it's time to find a new one. solution?
Petty and irrelevant bullshit. Probably true but who cares? And please don't get into the double standard of appearance that women are supposedly held to because that hasn't been true for two decades. Solution?
There is no male privilege and if examples like these are the best women can come up with to go up against the rampant misandry we're subjected to at every level of government, society, culture, and civilization, they must be delusional.

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Feminism is not a corruption and when just a hundred years ago, you had doctors saying that women shouldn't go to school because they'd get sick, go crazy and even die because of the strains of schooling conflicting with menstruation, feminism has done a lot of good.

I'm glad you believe women are equal (hopefully you do!), but not all do, especially globally. Feminism still serves a purpose.

As I posted below, there are still plenty of male privileges out there, one of them being that you aren't even aware of them. And as I also posted below, any feminism that isn't dealing with equality should be called out. But be sure that you are railing against inequality-based feminism, rather than the destruction of male privilege.

And by the way, your advice to me was essentially:

If you don't like the nature of the submissions, post your own. But don't waste your time because none of us want to see anything but what's currently here already. P.S. I'm old school and you're not.

[–]theseusastro 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If feminism is a male's biggest concern, then they aren't interested in equality, they're interested in not losing their male privilege.

Feminism is one of the ideological driving forces behind social politics nowadays. It encompasses a series of gender-biased beliefs, painting a neo-marxist portrait of society in which everything is seen in terms of female victimhood and exploitation, and male privilege and domination – none of which happens to be corroborated by the evidence being gathered in the fields of cognitive science and evolutionary psychology, let alone in the statistics of various social factors and even basic economic principles.

And yet, that's the basis of the justice system, and the point from which a great portion of social legislation is passed. In part precisely because people like you have such blind faith on this outdated revisionist concept that they see fit to take an attack on its unfounded and undeserved status in modern society as a longing for "male privilege".

Why do you think that governmental administrations of nearly all western countries have entire departments and even ministries devoted to women's welfare, and none to men – Even though men are by far, way far, the primary victims of all kinds violence and every top health concern worldwide? The fact that modern politics is dominated by feminism, and every attempt to show that there is another side to the story is dismissed outright as just longing for "male privilege".

And by the way, the submissions "bashing women" are there to counter the beliefs that women are naturally "nurturing, loving, kind, affectionate, etc" in a way that men aren't. Because, what do you think makes women be treated as the sole victims of domestic violence even though all studies and statistics show it's evenly split (with women being slightly more violent than men) and get wildly brander sentences than males for the exact same crimes? Yep, this very notion that women are not violent by nature – unlike men.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually it does, feminsim is either to be treated with contempt or ridicule.

the abolition of stereotypes surrounding men and male sexuality etc

Largely fot this kind of idiocy.

It's like arguing for an abolition of the steriotypes surrounding the kind of clothes you ware.

People generalise, it's an integral part of how we function, we do not have time to take everything at face vallue, our intuition is based on generalisations, the majority of the time our intuitions are accurate.

Our brain do not distiguish between things you have had a choice in and things you have not.

It sucks sometimes, and sometimes awareness needs to be raised.

Equality in terms of equal opportuinitys should be encouragesd in the eyes of the law.

Socially we will never gain objective equality, men and woman are different and people will generalise, and often they will act on their intuition, even if this goes against their better judgnent.

As men we will always be seen as less capable with children, becasue if you are to generalise we probably are, to some degree this will always spill ionto the legal field.

As men we will always have to take more than our fair share of resposibility, wheter you like it or not.

If you don't quite fit the mold you will find things a little harder for you, to some degree you need to get over that though.

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Title	Women's Studies - The Truth [pic]
Author	rmbarnes
Upvotes	19
Comments	71
Date	August 12, 2009 6:00 PM UTC (17 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9a0pc/womens_studies_the_truth_pic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/womens-studies-the-truth-pic.1053324 https://theredarchive.com/post/1053324

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