Thought experiment for women:

TheChemist158 · 2015-07-01T04:44:25+00:00

Given the kids are closer with your husband, and want to stay with him, should he get main custody?

That can be kinda tricky. I think the kid's want should definitely be taken into consideration, but he is just a kid and doesn't have a full grasp of the situation. Bottom line is that I think he should go to the better parent, and who is the better parent depends on a lot of things. Being closer to his dad is a big plus, but if his dad is unemployed he might not be able to care for him. So I'll leave it at "it depends" but on gender.

If he has custody, should you pay child support?

Absolutely.

Should you pay a settlement of half of all of your assets, including the house that you paid for entirely during your marriage?

I wouldn't agree to having a SAH spouse if I wasn't prepared to do so. The deal with SAH spouses is that they are your equal, your partner. That house that you bought isn't yours. You bought with a person there, helping you and supporting you. I don't believe a marriage should have one person be considered more valuable than another. Now, I'd be weary to let a guy become a SAHD, but since in your hypothetical I already agreed, then yes, that is the consequence of my decision. I would live with it and respect that while he might have made the money directly, he is entitled to half the assets I got during the marriage.

Given that he was a stay at home dad, and couldn't develop his own skills, should you pay alimony?

Yes. Again, the whole "teamwork" thing. He maintained the home and I can't just kick him out in the cold suddenly.

How long should you pay alimony for, and what % of your income should that be?

I think that alimony should be the same principle as unemployment (from a libertarian POV and not modern liberal here's a giant bag of money for nothing POV). He gets some livable amount of money for about enough time to get a job. Six months should be enough time, no more than a year. It shouldn't be a percent of my income, but based on the cost of living of where we live. It should be just enough to live with minimal luxuries. And yes, I think this should be true for women in the same spot. In fact if you reverse the genders my answer would still be the same.

mcconnelldemasi · 2015-07-01T04:14:17+00:00

Child's best interest so yes.
Yes.
Yes. Child care is expensive. Him staying home probably saved enough money to buy the assets.
F*ck no. He can develop skills.
No. He needs a job to maintain a minimal standard of living.
N/A

LeaneGenova · 2015-07-01T05:45:40+00:00

Alright, I wasn't planning on sleeping for a while, anyway.

Given the kids are closer with your husband, and want to stay with him, should he get main custody?

If you're referring to primary physical custody, I would mostly likely say that's reasonable. However, joint legal custody would still exist. I would also require reasonable and liberal parenting time, with a schedule to fall back upon if we cannot agree. Because this is my partner of quite a long time and I see the BS that happens in these cases all the time, I imagine that we'd be able to work out a holiday schedule, and arrange for weekly exchanges. If not, we'd go for the county suggested holiday schedule.

However, regardless of whether the children were closer to him, if I had any concerns about his ability to parent on his own, I would argue for primary physical custody to be with me. Best interests of the children involve far more than the child's preference, which only matters if the children are of a reasonable age to have a reasonable preference. Otherwise, I'd request an FEMC evaluation for them to determine their recommendation.

If he has custody, should you pay child support?

Absolutely. I would assume that even if I received primary physical custody, I would still pay support. My state uses overnights and income to calculate support, and the primary caregiver can still end up paying in those cases.

If he were to be ordered to pay child support, it would be paid via SSD derivative benefits, so he would be out absolutely no money. Otherwise, I would be willing to stipulate to no child support (using one of the accepted reasons for deviation) so long as he remained on disability.

Should you pay a settlement of half of all of your assets, including the house that you paid for entirely during your marriage?

A fair settlement of property would be to divide it according to the property division statute in my state. As my state does equitable division, it will likely be 50/50. However, depending on major assets, this can change.

There are lot of things that I can't really comment on without knowing more specifics - is the house a sound investment? Would we be better to let it be foreclosed upon? How much remains on the mortgage? Would he reasonably have the ability to pay the mortgage on the home?

What other assets/debts do we have? Are they jointly incurred, or are they mostly separate (student loans, medical debt)? Since in this world, we've married after I earned my degree, that is not an asset that would need to be divided. Otherwise, we would have to deal with that, as well.

Assuming a typical debt/asset structure, we would each take one vehicle and the debt associated with it. We would determine how to handle the house based upon its asset/debt ratio. Personal property would be divided by who wanted it (my SO and I have already agreed about what property belongs to who in the event of a separation).

Given that he was a stay at home dad, and couldn't develop his own skills, should you pay alimony?

I would. It would be based upon the years of our marriage, assuming it's close to the 10 year mark, he would have a viable claim to it. If I were feeling vindictive, I could easily use the cheating as a moral reason to argue against spousal support, but I doubt I would in actuality. Based upon what I generally see in cases, it would be approximately $500-700 a month, probably for a period of 3.3 years (assuming a 10 year marriage). Sadly, I don't have the prognosticator software on my home computer, so I can't make up the numbers as easily.

Should you pay enough alimony so that he can maintain his current standard of living?

That's not exactly the point of spousal support in my state, so no. The point is for it to be rehabilitative, and allow the spouse to get on his/her own feet without being financially destitute immediately. It can also be something as simple as one spouse agreeing to continue to pay the mortgage until the other spouse has a job. Or it can be a giant shit-show; I've seen both.

How long should you pay alimony for, and what % of your income should that be?

Again, it would depend on my income, the length of the marriage, the income disparity in his earning potential with his degrees/disability. I can't speak to the precise number now (remind me later, and I'll see if I can plug it into the prognosticator at work). I would imagine it would be approximately 1/4-1/3 of my income, depending on property division. If he received the home, it would be likely less. If I did, it might be more. These things are incredibly case-by-case, and incredibly fact dependent.

As a side note, I already assume that this would be the inevitable result of a divorce from my partner, since he's agreed to be the stay at home husband. The most difficult issues will be protecting his disability income, and making sure that he receives a just share of the assets.

Sorry this is a bit long, but it's a lot less dense because half of it is pure speculation. Without numbers, I can't make too many guesses.

sariaru · 2015-07-01T09:02:05+00:00

Then, unfortunately, you catch your husband cheating. He's been cheating on you for years. You decide you want a divorce.

Out of love for my child, I probably wouldn't divorce, even in the case of sustained infidelity. I would sacrifice my money and my dignity to make sure that my child has every chance for a family that has a mother and a father and work for as many years as it took to resolve the underlying issue of why my husband would be cheating. Radical opinion, I know, but the only situation that I believes necessitates separation is perceived threat of physical harm. I ruddy well meant it when I said, "til death do us part."

I know this sort of sidesteps your thought experiment, but I sense that the opinion of "divorce is not an option" runs radically counter to most people's idea of a marriage, especially RP views. I'm flaired as purple for this and a couple of other things that would counter me flairing as red.

imaterriblelurker · 2015-07-01T08:19:34+00:00

1: shared custody, he keeps the house and I come to collect the child and make small talk with ex-husband. The child had nothing to do with our split-up and should see that the parents are still friendly even after a divorce.

2: Since he was stay at home, no matter what my feelings towards his cheating, the child is the one that should benefit from me and my earnings. I would never deprive a child for something a parent did.

3: Yes, while he was at home taking care of the child/children I had the opportunity to work on my career and not pay a nanny. He deserves some sort of alimony or some support until he can support himself.

4: See above, yes, I should pay alimony for a minimum of 4 years, that is the time it takes to get a degree or get a job that pays enough. Since custody would be split, he would have more time to cultivate his hobbies, needs and job skills.

5: I should pay enough to help with mortgage since he will be keeping the house and I would not want my children to move out of their home, i should pay enough to help with all general bills, electric, telephone, internet and taxes on the property.

6: 4 years at least.

This is because i know my man being a stay at home father and me being a high earner might have given him more opportunities to cheat. It might just be a phase or it could just that be that he did not have the trust in me to tell me that he was thinking of cheating.

I believe in equity, that is the partner who has more, is the partner that gives more. I would gladly give up more and maybe he meets a great partner down the road and she is lovely too!

tomatostew · 2015-07-01T15:15:14+00:00

Given the kids are closer with your husband, and want to stay with him, should he get main custody?

Custody shouldn't be the child's decision. If both parents are capable, they should share. I was closer with my mom when my parents were divorced and didn't want to spend half my time with my dad, but they made me. I'm so glad custody was shared equally because it improved my relationship with both parents. So no, giving custody to only one parent (when both are capable) is not a good idea. I would say this regardless of gender and child preference.

If he has custody, should you pay child support?

I believe that current child support laws are flawed, but in this case, yes. Child support is for the child. It shouldn't matter what the parents think, but both need to contribute financially.

Should you pay a settlement of half of all of your assets, including the house that you paid for entirely during your marriage?

Given that he was a stay at home dad, and couldn't develop his own skills, should you pay alimony? Should you pay enough alimony so that he can maintain his current standard of living?

it might suck, but that's the law. I think it's flawed, but if that's what the court decides, you gotta do it.

How long should you pay alimony for, and what % of your income should that be?

I don't have a number in mind, but it's not my decision. I would hope that we could settle it out of court and be adults and compromise for the good of the child.

that's what my parents did. My mom paid child support and alimony until I turned 19 (that was their agreement)

cats_or_get_out · 2015-07-01T15:59:46+00:00

Woman checking in with a different perspective: divorce isn't an option. What then? The adults have to deal with the problems they created. Taking divorce off the table makes cheating less savory. You mean, I'm stuck with you? Yep. That's marriage.

This isn't a roommate situation; this is 50+ years of The Amazing Race where your spouse is your partner (for better or worse). This is the difference between our generation and our grandparents. They made the choice to stay together (you better believe there was cheating and alcoholism then too).

Our generation bails ship before we even hit the 20 year mark and often for idiotic reasons: "I don't feel fulfilled." "There is no passion anymore." "I feel neglected."

Larry-Man · 2015-07-01T09:21:32+00:00

Given that psychologically speaking, for the child and the adult, equal parenting is the best option. What's best for the kid isn't to have a weekend parent to spoil them and then a parent who has to take care of all of the discipline. I would possibly still pay child support, at least while my jobless ex is still job hunting.

What I am responsible for is the fact that my husband has no job skills or history because he was stay at home. I think that the assets would be something we should work out based on his needs and I'm a firm believer in a prenup even as a woman so hopefully we'd have one regardless of who was the wage-earner.

This leads into, yes he deserves alimony, he made that choice and I accepted the responsibility that came with that, he shouldn't have to fend for himself because he chose to stay at home and use his skills there.

It depends on what his current standard of living is. I don't want him trapped in some crappy apartment, if we're lower middle class then I don't really want that to change too much and think he deserves to get a larger percentage but if we're upper middle class or upper class he can suck it up a bit and learn to live on the kind of budget he'll be used to on his own.

The time I would pay alimony for would probably depend on if he was planning to attend school or not to attain job skills, if he already had a degree I'd give him six months to track down a new job, if not I'd help out until he was done some schooling, partially at least. It's partly my responsibility that he wasn't part of the work force, it was my house he was taking care of.

I think the proportion and time spent and all of these things are a case by case basis. If more people could get divorced like my parents did and work things out in a civil fashion rather than treat it like a way to hurt somebody and throw your kids in the middle then all of this would be a non-issue.

I think about my current SO in this situation and it just makes me sad. I love him and if it didn't work out I can't imagine going for the jugular like some rabid animal; not on any of my worst breakups (save one, but that's a special case of actual assault and rape) could I imagine doing that to the person I was with.

GridReXX · 2015-07-01T11:10:40+00:00

Quite frankly I would fight for custody. I would likely lose since he was the SAHP.

Hopefully I had a prenuptial agreement that had a "cheating clause."

If I did, he's not getting shit.

However if I didn't and I live in one of those no-fault divorce states, I guess I'll respect the law and secretly place voodoo on him.

I'll probably feign nice around him around our child, but outside of that I'll likely be bitter around him for quite some time.

If I get remarried I'll likely have a prenuptial agreement.

Or maybe I'll marry someone who makes as much as me.

Or more.

So yes OP, I get that the laws render the person who was wronged / person who makes more / person who works outside of the home fucked during a divorce.

MissPearl · 2015-07-01T12:51:22+00:00

Given the kids are closer with your husband, and want to stay with him, should he get main custody?

He should get main custody if that's what he's been doing, although obviously much depends on how we divided our duties. It not about our relationship, its about the kids. Being unfaithful in no way implies he's a bad parent. I still need to work with this guy if we have a tend year old together.

As a SAHP, the kid has already been in school for five years, so if I've been supporting him not to work during that time he probably has some project he's invested in- maybe he's an artist or volunteers at the school or runs a twitch channel for beer money.

Should you pay a settlement of half of all of your assets, including the house that you paid for entirely during your marriage?

Yes, he was raising our child. He's not an at will employee, he was a business partner and now we are splitting the partnership.

I should pay child support according to the law- that can be up until they complete post-secondary education. Alimony isn't really something that gets paid out in huge amounts where I live, but splitting things such that he gets temporary support to launch a career is not unreasonable.

That wasn't so hard.

pfromad · 2015-07-01T14:49:50+00:00

Then, unfortunately, you catch your husband cheating. He's been cheating on you for years.

You decide you want a divorce.

Well, I'm going to stop you right there, because I'm not sure that I'd necessarily divorce a life partner for having a girlfriend.

But say that there was a divorce:

Given the kids are closer with your husband, and want to stay with him, should he get main custody?

So, I was a child of divorce, I can only suggest what I would have preferred happened, even though this is not what usually happens.

I think the kids should stay with their previously non- custodial parent, and come back to their original home on weekends. I am assuming that the children will be older, and need less oversight than very young children.

This has more to do with managing their social lives than anything else. Also, in my experience, the previously stay at home parent is probably going to want to start working again, so it's probably better for him or her not to have full custody of kids right after divorce. I think it's a huge mistake for stay at home mothers to cling to the children after a divorce.

I consider a previously SAH parent to have semi-adolescent status when it comes to re-entering the work force. Just like a child needs a certain amount of stability to develop into a functioning adult the former SAHD needs some stability to successfully return to work.

That means lighter child rearing responsibilities and staying in the established family home.

As for settlements, alimony and child support:

Should you pay a settlement of half of all of your assets, including the house that you paid for entirely during your marriage?

Ideally I'd defer settlement of resources until after the kids needs for schooling and housing as minors have been met. This assumes that a lot of the resources gathered during a marriage are for the benefit of the children.

Given that he was a stay at home dad, and couldn't develop his own skills, should you pay alimony?

I think it is fair to have a period of alimony for the non-working parent that is sufficient to supplement their income needs directly following a divorce. This doesn't include luxuries, it's more like an allowance that a fresh grad might get to help him along before he finds his first job.

If he has custody, should you pay child support?

Yes, a reasonable amount of child support should be paid by the higher earner in most cases. But in my ideal situation where the working parent has primary custody this amount would be less than usual.

tl;dr: I have unusual ideas about how resources should bee distributed after a marriage fails. Beep boop I'm an emotionless robot.

Cbus_anonymous · 2015-07-01T14:51:06+00:00

I'm ok with all of your conditions, provided main custody still gives me appropriate time with my kid and allows for a flow of information needed to keep me in their lives. For example, I'd need to be kept in the loop of when their dance recitals and spelling bees are. I agree with alimony in this case, and a 50% split of the money accrued. The "current standard of living" thing is difficult, as that's going to affect my child as well; also, my salary is not multiplying, so I'm going to need to keep some to have a reasonable place for my child when they're staying with me.

Alimony should continue, imo, until the spouse has had an appropriate chance to make a career for themselves, and maybe even partially after that, as the couple of decades or whatever they spent with me would've theoretically been spent climbing a ladder somewhere. So if they're starting from the bottom, they'll have a very difficult time "ascending" all that far before they hit retirement age. If they're still staying at home with our kid, I think a full "salary" needs to be offered, as that's still both a job and a sacrifice.

I'd agree to alimony consistent with having the child in daycare 7 days a week.

Archwinger · 2015-07-01T15:40:56+00:00

I was just talking with a woman about this at some lame networking event. I don't usually bother, but she was a family law attorney and very pro woman, so I raised the issue of the prenup. We weren't getting anywhere, and it was a slightly different angle.

If a man asks a woman to sign a prenup before agreeing to marry her, we call his intentions into question. What does he mean by that? Does he expect the marriage to fail? Does he intend to cheat? Does he suspect this woman that he supposedly loves of being a manipulative gold-digger? If he really loved her, how could he even ask that? Surely he knows what it implies. A “real man” would want to take care of his woman, not guard his assets from her. A man proposing that his wife-to-be sign a prenup is essentially declaring that he doesn’t want to take care of his woman, suspects her of having ulterior motives, and has dismal hopes for the future of the marriage.

However, if a strong, independent, career-minded woman asks her less-wealthy man to sign a prenup before agreeing to marry him, that’s generally accepted as a smart move by the woman. She worked hard to get where she is in life and it’s only natural that she’d want to protect that and keep what she earned. If the man refuses to sign the prenup, that casts doubt on his intentions. Isn’t he a “real man?” Can’t he work for himself? Is he looking to be some easy-street, lazy bum and live off of his wife’s hard work? Does he expect the marriage to end early – maybe even plan for it to do so? Doesn’t he respect her hard work and understand her? Essentially, asking a man to sign a prenup is a test of faith. If he’s a “real man,” he’ll sign it. Only a loser would refuse.

thereddespair · 2015-07-01T21:53:37+00:00

I dont think he should have sole custody, I shouldnt pay him child support - he needs to carry that burden on his own as i carry my own part, why must "I" carry his when we are already apart to begin with. Its his responsibility?? im already working and the payment i get is to carry this useless bum while hes fucking someone else..??? anyone??? doesnt that sound retarded to you?

i believe in split custody, equal, unless the other parent displays inability to care for the child or endangers etc etc

seriously... i dont wanna get married. i might be the odd one out of here, but all of this bullshit of legal marriage? fuck that shit. i make my money, you make yours, if you wanna live with me you pay half of the stuff. when you leave, i owe you nothing, you owe me nothing.

it can just be that simple. all of this settlement child crap... alimony, prenups, lawyers, courts, ... and... i dont even wanna have kids and i never will.

i like the idea of if we both wanna get a house and we really wanna split it if ever, then we name it under both our names. if im paying for it all, and you do nothing for it, you should get nothing of it. just as i have enough pride to not demand for something you labored for, in which i have no input in.

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nemma88 · 2015-07-01T07:51:42+00:00

50/50, but I'd accept the kid's residence being the primary care giver.

Alimony has to be decided on a individual basis. How detached are they from the job market and how long would it take for them to catch up? How much was lost from normal living in the 50 split? Many things.

The circumstances, while unfair should not factor into the outcome too much. Divorce is a logistics exercise, not a feeelz exercise.

Title	Thought experiment for women:
Author	pakleader
Upvotes	11
Comments	73
Date	July 1, 2015 3:52 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3bppm2/thought_experiment_for_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/thought-experiment-for-women.281306 https://theredarchive.com/post/281306

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