What is honor?

mikado12 · 2014-04-24T16:55:46+00:00

In Israel I visited the grave of a Jewish female paratrooper, who in WWII parachuted into Nazi Germany with the intent of sabotaging supply lines. She was caught, tortured, and finally executed when she refused to leak any information. TRP has plenty of good material floating around on how to handle plates or become a better man, but this isn't one of them.

edit: I haven't heard much about the relationship between women and honor on TRP regardless.

MissPearl · 2014-04-24T17:21:03+00:00

Honourable generally has to do with your payment of debts and obligations, ability to stick with them despite no reward or negative consequences. Cheating on an agreement would be classic dishonourable conduct.

When people talk about a lack of honourable in women, in the past this was related to a lack of personhood or agency. "Honour killings" generally are about the honour of the guy doing them, or family honour, not the honour of the victim. It's worth noting that it generally goes with assumptions of alliance based marriages, often including dowry.

Honour also can be attached to not taking advantage of someone. For example if your ex really wants to get back with you it would be dishonorable to give them false hope for your own gain. It would be considered dishonourable to assist others in breaking agreements, such as abetting adultery, although hardly illegal. Your credit score is another way your modern honour has been codified- to this day you can talk about choosing not to honour a debt.

purplepill2 · 2014-04-24T16:53:24+00:00

Some fundamentalist Muslims clearly believe women are capable of honor, or honor killings wouldn't make any sense.

I think honor killings are done to restore the honor of the woman's family, it's not about the honor of the woman. Muslim cultures tend to be not very individualistic.

Sy87 · 2014-04-24T16:42:06+00:00

I've seen it said by RPers that women do not have honor, because they would lie if there is incentive for it and because they look for (any) individual(s) well-being over some moral code.

For the first reason, I would say that men are just as likely to lie if there was incentive. And therefore, just as many men lack honor in the same way women lack honor.

For the second part, I can understand that being interpreted as lack of honor. But I would only go as far to say that it is a different type of honor. Putting the honor of real individuals over the honor of intangible rules. I don't think it is inherently a negative thing. Only different, and both are necessary for society.

alcockell · 2014-04-29T08:15:56+00:00

I think this is fairly nailed by a series of Art of Manliness articles. TL;DR honor is respect within a group. Honorable behavior is whatever gets respected withing the group. It is not exclusively male. Traditionally, different things were seen honorable for men and women, and perhaps you can say that amongst women kindness was more important than respect, although this is highly debatable.

The idea tha women always lie and thus biologically have no honor is bullshit. First of all lying is not automatically dishonorable as honor is defined as respect withing a group. If your group likes lying, OK. (Group can be anything from a gang to a nation or a civilization.) Honor codes are not biologically hardcoded but differ per group.

Second, there have been some notions in the tradition of Western civ that men should fight face to face and women are allowed to kinda backstab but that is socialization, not biology and went away long, long ago, like generations ago.

Anyway the articles:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/12/10/manly-honor-vi-the-decline-of-traditional-honor-in-the-west-in-the-20th-century/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/06/10/the-yanomamo-and-the-origins-of-male-honor/

[deleted] · 2014-04-25T03:57:00+00:00

So being honorable is based on devotion to principles (which is indeed an important determinant of male social status), as applied to self-sacrifice or war?

I'd say most moderners in general will have difficulty with the idea of certain principles being so important you would die for it. It would probably reek of fanaticism to them. I'm not certain what would these principles would have to be for me to sacrifice my own life for them.

If honor is adherence to principles you could find bits of it in people who are imbibed in political activism or religion. Or any kind of niche interest groups, or as I hinted, fanboys. I could understand why the gender difference would matter.

My takeaway is, saying "Women lack honor" basically means the same thing as "Geek girls aren't real", where "geek" is replaced with whatever abstractions you should martyr yourself for.

[deleted] · 2014-04-25T06:34:29+00:00

There was a thread here just one week ago on this very topic. This was my comment:

My understanding of his point on honor requires an understanding of how one can be judged to have honor. I'll avoid the philosophical backgrounds behind its varying definitions (mostly because I'm not as well versed in that) but rather try and come up with a succinct version of what it represents in this discussion. Understandably, it will not encompass every accepted use of the word, but the concept is more important than the semantics.

In a sense, having honor is not compromising on a set of personal moral/ethical codes regardless of circumstances. What is implied in this definition (in order for other people to also believe that you possess honor), is that you have some power that others deem valuable. If you cannot exercise power over a situation, stating that you will not compromise over it makes you look foolhardy and oblivious, not honorable. Similar concepts have been discussed on TRP in regards to when chivalry is admirable/ respected and why white-knights are ridiculed.

When it comes to looking for an ideal, loving relationship, many women would agree that they prefer men who are more powerful and successful than them, even if the woman is successful herself. They prefer a leader rather than a follower. It's considered a man's duty to express interest in order to start a relationship in the first place. It's considered his duty to create the agenda. It's considered his duty to create passion. It's considered his duty to resolve economic hardships.

In these relationships, power is deferred to the man, and it is his duty to not only consider his own well-being in his decisions, but hers as well. And often, he must compromise his own ambitions and preferences to maintain the relationship in spite of the power he holds. This is where he could be considered an honorable person. A woman can arguably be considered honorable if she were in the same position, but such an arrangement is atypical in a modern ideal, loving relationship.

Now, you can say that women do indeed hold power in relationships the form of attractiveness. However, while she can possess physical beauty, she cannot easily exercise power with it for the reasons stated above. Simply put, it's the man who takes a lead in starting most successful relationships. Attractiveness gives her value, but does not change the leader/follower dynamic of the relationship.

The point on loyalty is less interesting to me. Loyalty and trust are earned and should be easily revoked. Some people operate with the notion that others should have the same ethical framework as them and are disappointed when people shockingly decide to act with their own interests in mind. Both men and women can be loyal, until it is no longer in their interest to be loyal.

robesta · 2014-04-25T02:02:12+00:00

This is one of those trap questions. OP, honor is a common usage word with many definitions. In a previous thread, I discussed this in detail. Let me break it down clearly. If you nitpick me to death, trying to discuss this is not worth my time. Try to understand my point of view and where I'm coming from.

Honor is placing abstract principles above your personal well being, often times so much so, that you end up dying for your principles.

200 years ago, if a man called a gentleman a liar, it was an insult to your honor and he often initiated a duel.

Today honor is much more rare. I've seen it in some Soldiers I've served with. You have to sift through the ones who are trying to better themselves and their own situations. While not bad, that's not honor.

Honor is Pat Tillman abandoning a starting position in the NFL to go to war in Afghanistan to defend the ideals his nation stands for.

Honor is Mike Murphy heroically running off to his own death in the face of an enemy purely out of duty.

Honor is the Soldier I served with who abandoned a D1 football scholarship because his dream was to serve the country that enabled his father, a first generation immigrant to escape poverty in Mexico. He never told me that. His mother mentioned it in a whispered voice at his promotion ceremony. He didn't want anyone to know.

I believe that the vast majority of women don't subscribe to a moral code that values this definition of honor. I see the look if confusion on women's faces when men that reverently talk about men sacrificing everything to do what's right and dying fit their country.

Women were made to survive and raise children. Men were made to provide and protect women and children. Men relate to these sacrifices, women typically can't.

I've served with many men and women in my 12 years in the military. Most people of both genders are there to better their own situation in some capacity. The few I know that display the trait I highlighted are men. I'm sure a women could display this trait. I just haven't met one yet.

myfriendscantknow · 2014-04-24T16:46:04+00:00

Honor is an abstract concept that evolved strictly in male hierarchies. Therefore, women cannot have honor.

EDIT: once again PPD downvotes for no reason even though everything I'm stating is historical fact that can be verified by opening any ancient European history textbook.

newguyacct · 2014-04-24T16:58:34+00:00

It is subscribing to a code and to a group that recognizes that code, and living life (or an aspect of life) by that code. That code is entirely independent of (but can include) morals, the well-being of yourself and others, etc. It's taking game theory of economics and doing the cooperation role over the selfish one. It involves rewarding those that follow the code with honour and punishing those that don't follow it with dishonour. Honour is NOT doing what others tell you (society) or what feels right (personal emotions). You personally choose to follow the honour system.

As with all things said on RP, it is not actually binary. Women just have a much harder time having and/or demonstrating honour. They aren't motivated by honour unless it aligns with their morals or feelings.

How often do you see women doing something that not only risks their life, but has 0 direct benefit to them and for an abstract concept of honour? In all of history.

Also, a way you can tell that women don't have honour/don't belong to an honour system:

This is also a key thing to mention and why women haven't really ever subscribed to one. Not only do they not get the respect from the honour system, but they also do not get the shame. Women want neither of these 2 things. No one recognizes a woman as a member capable of following the system, thus no one rewards/punishes women accordingly. It has always been a male thing.

Title	What is honor?
Author	myfriendscantknow
Upvotes	10
Comments	86
Date	April 24, 2014 4:31 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/23vd2k/what_is_honor/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-honor.285834 https://theredarchive.com/post/285834

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