I find it difficult to maintain my frame in the presence of loud alpha males (they can easily get me annoyed, and feed on my negative reactions). I am OK otherwise, so how do I deal with this?

foldpak111 · 2014-11-24T05:46:34+00:00

You know what gets anyone to break frame? Giving them a blank stare.

Dick-Tracy · 2014-11-24T01:16:44+00:00

First of all, by letting him successfully annoy you, you are breaking frame and proving to him that you're not an alpha and you can't play ball. You need to hurl the same genre of witticisms back at him in order to prove that he can't annoy you and that you're on his level, at which time he will begin to have some respect for you and the game will change a little.

If you can't do that, then you need to disassociate from him and stay in contexts where you can maintain your frame.

Antagonistic_Comment · 2014-11-24T10:13:35+00:00

If you keep the right kind of social circle (one that isn't entirely 13-year-olds) EVERYONE hates that guy to some degree or another and would enjoy it if his presence was lessened. If you have any say over the guest list for a social event, etc. just don't include him. It sounds like he's a coworker where that isn't quite the same option. Just don't play his game, if he is the way you claim, everyone knows he's not socially worth spending time interacting with beyond what you have to. When he tries to get a reaction of you, tell him to get back to work because you don't have time for his shit, you're actually getting a job done.

fastball21 · 2014-11-24T05:12:07+00:00

A hunter in the woods doesn't hear the babbling brook, the birds in the trees or the wind in the leaves. He only listens to the sound of the deer.

FishFoxFerret · 2014-11-24T07:17:11+00:00

Smile, agree, and amplify.
Call him out for overcompensating.
Change how you think of him, from now on he has a micropenis. Poor bastard, well the least you can do now is smile and agree, he needs some pity. Look, it's small penis guy! Hooray! He's come to make your dick look huge.

KarmaEnthusiast · 2014-11-24T01:58:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2014-11-24T01:59:43+00:00

Some examples? The guy might just see you as a pushover. These loud types don't pull that schtick on everyone, you know?

But yes, learn to be witty for yourself. There's usually something you can make fun of about someone. Respond quickly and protect your character man.

2014-11-24T06:45:06+00:00

Dude, there's plenty of ways you could teach people not to fuck with you. Stop being a pushover. I notice people telling you to go along with it. That shit is dumb, brah. That's like me telling you to moon somebody after they violate your rectum. That's not gonna impress anybody.

This dude's disrespecting you AS A MAN. Think about it.

viavitae · 2014-11-24T01:55:28+00:00

Being irritated by that stuff might be part of a mild depression. Even ambient noise can be more or less annoying based on your mental state. Extreme exercise might help make these things become less impactful on your mental state. Stoic reflection, meditation, mindfulness exercises will also help you better deal with irritations.

Aroooooo · 2014-11-24T13:42:25+00:00

I don't mean to hijack this guy's thread, but I know EXACTLY the kind of fucker he's talking about and wanted to provide specific examples.

I have some friends from online games; I practically grew up with them and have known them for years. Sometimes during the summer I'll go and visit them if one guy's parents aren't renting out this beach house they own in SoCal.

This guy, I'll call him B, can be a real fucking asshole. I don't understand him at all. I usually arrive a few days before the other guy, so it'll be just B and I + his own circle of friends.

Whenever it's just him and I, he's cool. He'll be a great guy to hang out and shoot the shit with. He's really inclusive and introduces me to his friends and shit.

But when guy #2 and his family shows up, B turns into a total prick out of nowhere. I swear to shit it feels like because him and I are so similar, he makes an effort to not be seen as my equal; it feels like he makes it a point to be seen as "above" me on the food chain whenever people that both him and I know come around.

He likes to stick to constant, little jabs that aren't possible to go nuclear over, but still an effort to be annoying. Almost feels like an effort to be my "big brother." I'll give some examples:

We're playing a board game that involves holding a few cards hidden in your hand. B is sitting to my side. It's literally our first time even playing the game so no one really knows how to play, but lo and behold B still finds a way to be an asshole.

When it's my turn and I get ready to play cards from my hand, he starts saying that he "can see my cards." Okay, whatever. I can see yours too but I'm not making an effort to.

Repeat this literally four times in the next 10 minutes. "I would never be able to play poker with you LOL" etc etc. Shit like that.

Here's another example:

we're sitting in the car and driving to the store. I'm in the backseat with B and I don't have my seatbelt on (it's not mandatory in my state for backseat seatbelt to be worn.)

"PUT YOUR FUCKING SEATBELT ON" soon as he notices I don't have mine on. Loud as shit - catches me by surprise. I look at him and say it's not required where I'm from.

"WELL WE'RE NOT FUCKING HILLBILLIES HERE IN CALIFORNIA"

again, loud as shit on purpose to get the other people in the car involved.

Last one:

I bought some jager to kill before we head out on the last night there. I'm drinking it and we're playing another board game. I'm literally FOUR OUNCES into my bottle and...

"You're drunk." "No lol, you're drunk." "You're drunk."

Eventually I look at him and say with a no bullshit voice "You know what B, that's really fucking annoying."

I dunno. This shit is routine whenever I head over there. If it's not incidents like the above, he'll try to tell me what to do in front of other people.

"You need to take shorter showers." "You need to turn down your earbuds."

That's the prerequisite. He only does this shit when specific people are around. Literally none of my other friends, real life or online, do this shit.

I'm not sure how to deal with it. I respond better when I don't let my guard down around him, but it's really just not fun to be on my guard 24/7 around him - it really puts a damper on the whole vacation.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-11-24T04:27:48+00:00

I think I know the type of guy you are talking about. Let me see, how would I deal with me and other arrogant fucks like me who are also smart and competent?

I think you just have to be ready to point out their bullshit. You need to go along and nod your head and listen and all that. You can leverage it into alliances in your favor when the AMOG oversteps and starts abusing people.

The cause of me losing frame is being less competent than that guy and other dudes like him

Well get more competent. Work out, get a black belt in karate, go to school, whatever. Wish I had better for you.

redpilltom · 2014-11-24T11:23:57+00:00

It's a focus issue. You don't have the ability to block out unnecessary and unimportant noise and just focus on what you're doing. One of the most important aspects of a man is his unrelenting focus, it's what allows all of his other skills, from simply throwing a spear to building skyscrapers.

I would definitely suggest meditation. Its all about blocking outside noise and directing your focus. I used to not be able to talk or think if someone was trying to talk over me. Now I can focus so well that an AMOG could be shouting in my ear and I wouldn't be bothered in the least bit.

bloodshot_eyes · 2014-11-24T22:49:42+00:00

The thing is, if you engage with what he's saying; if you acknowledge the insult and try to negate it, he's already won. You're dancing to his tune, you're conforming to the conversational path that he's established.

Instead, break stride. Let's set a scene for your interaction. You're at a social gathering, and you're conversing with two attractive colleagues. Douche walks up and says

"Yo Fukako, who let you near these two lovely ladies? Shouldn't you be back in your cubicle?"

Pretty standard; trying to establish that you don't belong here, that he can tell you what to do, etc. If you acknowledge him and defend why you're talking to the ladies, you're on the defensive. Instead, just say

"What?"

He'll either try to repeat himself, or change it up. At this point if he's talking super loud you could say What again super loud and mock how loud he's talking. Or you could feign misunderstanding and say

"Oh, you're trying to be funny! Hey ladies, have you met [douche]? He's a real funny guy! Hey tell us a joke [douche]!"

That'll put him on the spot and force him to come up with something actually clever. If he defers and says that's all he's got, then you can use that to dismiss him from the conversation. If he actually comes up with something, do not address him; address the ladies.

"See, I told you he was funny! He must spend, like, hours looking up jokes. Haha."

Another strategy could be to neg the shit out of him.

"Hey [douche], you look a little red. How many drinks have you had?"

"Hey [douche], you have a bit of food on your face. Right there. No, other side. ...There you go, all clean!"

"When did you get those shoes? I haven't seen those in stores for years. Nah, it's cool to be different, whatever works for you right?"

"What are you drinking tonight? ...Oh! But hey, weren't you trying to lose weight? I thought I heard from someone that you were trying to drop some pounds or something. No?"

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on how to deal with loud obnoxious people. Practice detached amusement, and above all do not conform to what he expects of you. Instead, fuck with him. Once you're in practice, it'll be remarkably easy.

thebluepillsucked · 2014-11-25T00:19:15+00:00

ignore it, bullies on bully those that are affected by it. they are like girls, if you ignore it and dont let it phase you, they will move on

as for your situation when others turn a joke on you, dont let it affect you, just laugh at it, "dont roll in the mud" (fight back and stoop their level of insulting you), great with women too

throwaway_explainer · 2014-11-25T12:04:35+00:00

Alright.

First thing: You are stepping on his social turf. You need to frame yourself differently or else you are competing of the same position in the major group.

Second thing: He sees you as a worthy adversary. Meaning, you are so competent in his eyes that he needs to put you down a notch so that others don't get to see you in as good light as you'd naturally get.

Now, there are several ways to handle this, and they are all situational. The most effective way is to start cultivating one on one peerdom with people of interest in the social setting; this means that you can portray yourself in real light without his influence.

The more people know You the less effective his AMOG will be. His goal is to frame you in his terms, your goal is to frame you in your terms. The path of least resistance is to do the framing outside of his influence.

When you are forced to a situation where he can actively diminish your value, you must understand that he only has power if you acknowledge it -- if you enter his frame. The best idea is to have concurrent conversations with people you have already befriended, while excluding him out of them by voice/position, etc. If he cuts you out, dismiss him and continue what you were doing.

Now, if you want to destroy him, do not talk bad about him behind his back. On the contrary, talk 90% good about him and praise his abilities. But remember to bring out the weakness you want to portray of him, this can be very deep. You can praise his abilities, social skills, looks, charisma etc, but add the quip that "pity he doesn't understand that people like him and he has no need to try to put others down and brag so much. The uncertainty probably stems from childhood, but he'll get over it in time."

This will sink in through all defences and everyone who you have befriended will think of those words and subconsciously apply you higher than him for such insight. This is amplified because he brings you up so much, that people know you two know eachother.

The magic of this is that his personality type is actually very insecure, and does their act in social settings. You can dismantle this all through more intimate one to one befriending of the social group. It takes surprisingly little amount of people who know you to take wind of his whole show.

The rest is just experience. After dealing with a few of these, you won't even get into these places because you can shut it down before it even begins.

*Edit: Typos.

drrrrrr · 2014-11-24T09:01:45+00:00

You have to pre-empt guys like this. I amog guys a lot when I go out as its highly competitive / overly male saturated where I live. Once you get in someone's head, get them reacting to you, get them qualifying themselves, or best of all, get them TRYING to be witty (hint, betas try to be witty), it's a hole they can never dig out of. Once you have been murked in social status, it's tough to generate it in that group again because you're mad, emotional, frustrated, annoyed, etc.

This is a 2 part problem. One part is that you have no offense - I am not a wannabe loudass bully type of a dude, but I recognize that sometimes I have to do it or lose the set quick. Tool people in a self-amused fashion - if they are cool, they will be fun about it and it's pretty entertaining. If they aren't, then fuck them, they were the types who were going to try to cockblock out of spite anyways.

Part 2, the bigger problem, is you have no defense. You feel "some type of way" about this whole thing, to put it bluntly. Whether he's a loudass beta who overcompensates by this type of faggotry or he's actually confident and has great tool-game... you have to be unaffected. Even a beta will ruin your social status if his snarky whiny BS drags your state down.

The_Psychopath · 2014-11-24T05:20:43+00:00

Just call him out on being an annoying chump who has to leech off of you to have enjoyment in his life.

xAFC · 2014-11-24T06:05:56+00:00

As somebody who got bullied as a young kid, I can tell you for certain that agree and amplify never fails. Somebody makes fun of me being bald, I tell them about times I blind people with my buffed shiny dome. Oh I have short arms, pretend I'm T-Rex trying to put on a cardigan, or T-Rex doing push-ups. it's bloody hilarious! My last name is something that can be pronounced in a sexual way, I own that shit and make it a nickname. Nobody can hurt, or control you or your reactions, unless you let them. This guy has power over you because you give it to him.

KarmaEnthusiast · 2014-11-24T12:20:50+00:00

If I feel it's banter, I'll join in with it. But it seems like this guy is actively trying to get you riled up because next to you he appears better when you lose your cool. With those guys I tend to focus on the women (isolate if you fucking have to) and whatever he says he'll probably try to engage both of you.

Just say "Yeah ok", "Yeah cool man", "Alright dude" [last one needs a snort just before it, hard to describe, like a quick sharp exhale out of your mouth to indicate laughter]. Indifferent is best but even annoyed can work for it. Once you've said that just refocus your attention on the girl. Just be careful, if a guy knows what he's doing he'll up his play and you will have to as well.

If you're not good enough to keep her attention over him even with this tactic this says you need more time in self-development.

FerrusMan · 2014-11-24T13:03:53+00:00

Can you give us an example of what he is doing?

imafuckingpsycho · 2014-11-24T13:07:07+00:00

Walk away find new people to talk to, keep doing that and If he follows you ask him privately if he's gay because it seems that he's always following you around being obsessed with you and that you're not interested. This will make him avoid you

justmanthings · 2014-11-24T15:39:20+00:00

Meditate. Cultivate stronger stoic qualities.

Also, I find that with most annoying assholes the best way to handle them picking at you is to enthusiastically accept any an all criticisms, -almost- to the point of absurdity, but not quite. And then once you've humored their assholery enough just go into lock down and tell them to fuck off, with the most genuine smile you can muster, cause you need to work now. But HEY GREAT JOKES BRO YOU'RE SO CUTE HAHAHA. thumbs up

dickinlips · 2014-11-24T16:04:22+00:00

A guy attempted a power play on me, telling me to send an email for him near my boss even though he works in an unrelated, shittier group. He asked while I was sitting with coworkers and my boss at a table during a company lunch event.

He said "Hey can you send XYZ an email for me?" It was awkward, everyone was confused at the table. I answered, "You need to send an email? Here. Tell XYZ it's you sending it." and I handed him my phone.

I didn't want to be a dick and say no outright. Now I think maybe I should have been a dick.

How would you approach the situation?

I_HaveAHat · 2014-11-24T17:59:09+00:00

I've had lots of similar experiences. I would plan a what to do and say next time, but I stopped worrying all together once I realized how much energy I'm putting into getting a guy to value me. Its not worth it and your better than that so act like it. Once you stop caring hell stop annoying you, and begin to get your attention back one way or another

2014-11-24T18:21:31+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvBKC_8TTao

This may be a helpful approach

2014-11-24T19:07:13+00:00

"1000's of comedians out of work and you're gonna be funny!" "GETTAOUTTAHERE" in your loudest Brooklyn/new yorker voice. When he tries to talk again ' YO WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?GETTAOUTTAHERE". It is effective because its funny and allows you to be VERY loud.

NoodlesTheClown · 2014-11-25T14:09:51+00:00

When somebody wants to give you shit and make fun of you in a way that's condescending and irritating, the best way to handle it like a boss is to make a big joke out of it. What's interesting is that if you handle it correctly, you'll get the other guy to laugh and you may even make a friend out of him. Or he'll just make himself scarce. Either way, you've won.

For example, if some dude wants to make jokes at your expense in front of others, you just come back with your own shit that puts him in a submissive/feminine position.

"Look sweetie, obviously you're obsessed with me and you're just trying to deny your feelings with all of this, but you really need to wine and dine me if you want to win me over." Dumb crap like that.

Literally talk to the dude like he's some bratty chick, all while laughing with the rest of the guys. Flip the tables, and jokingly insult his manhood. And keep the pressure on (aka, maintain a comedic, dominant frame). Stay on the offensive. This has worked many times for me. Men do this as a way to jocky for position and status; men test each other, just like women test men. You pass the test by staying cool, having fun with it, and coming back with funny/dominant shit of your own.

Learn to talk some good smack. It's definitely an art, and you will actually make friends with lots of guys if you can talk solid smack.

bsutansalt · 2014-11-26T15:33:51+00:00

This belongs in /r/asktrp

thatkidanthony · 2014-11-24T05:39:45+00:00

Agree and amplify works with bros too.

Him - You play guitar that's cute I was a band nerd once too, but eventually I became a man

You - really? we should bond when I'm not busy playing while my guitar gently weeps to make myself feel better that you just brought up highschool.

Him - yeah I bet you were picked on in high school

You - only sometimes, most of my time was spent in the yearbook room pretending to be a hipster with the sweet dslr I got or Christmas, To everyone else - I'm actually decent at photography check it out

I would Agree with whatever he's making fun of and laugh at yourself a bit, (everyone should be able to) while bringing in other cool stuff about you or cool stuff others can relate to and spring conversation further. He's not your enemy, think of him as someone looking for a good, funny, embarrassing story about you and give everyone one

bohemian_fappsody · 2014-11-24T06:44:13+00:00

Okay, I don't know if this is good advice - it's easy to see why it's questionable - but it popped into my head, and it might be worth considering something along these lines.

You could go nuclear in one well-timed instance and end this behavior for good. Threatening physical violence would certainly be going overboard (especially if he's bigger than you), but maybe you could just get really obnoxious and disruptive when he's hitting on a chick or otherwise trying to make an impression, until he cracks. It's hard to think of a good example, but really, you just want to force him into an extreme situation that will cause him to lose frame while you are also losing frame, with your mentality being, "If I'm going down, I'm taking you down with me." One time might be worth it, considering you're losing frame anyway, except it's happening over and over again. He's not going to like it if he's forced into losing frame with you, so he'd probably stop.

I thought of this because I've been playing some chess lately with my buddy, and kicking his ass, and his latest strategy has been to put the pieces in situations where he could force a sacrifice of his queen for my queen, knowing how much damage I can do with my queen. It actually helped him, because in future games, I've been forced to avoid situations where I know he'd be willing to make that trade, as it lowers the playing field to his benefit. It's not a good long-term strategy, because he's not going to get better at chess doing that (and you might consider the same with respect to your situation), but I did have to adapt my strategy to account for it.

Sometimes, when you force somebody to take the same loss you are being forced to take, it can be to your benefit.

Rimeheart · 2014-11-24T06:50:14+00:00

I would do some counter research and find a way to make an embarrassing quip back. Like read him out every one has a weakness in social situations figure out his and needle him back with it. However do it in an amused just having some friendly banter fashion.

AchillesOtherLeg · 2014-11-24T23:40:33+00:00

I find that most situations of this sort rely on your willingness to play along with some pretence or nicety and I have successfully solved them by recognising the attempt at them hiding behind my social graces and responding with cruel bluntness.

Example: Douchfag: Hey everyone some kind of subtle barb at achilles haha! Me: You're a waste of flesh and I have no respect for you, fuck off. Douchfag: Shocked silence Me: So anyway as I was saying...

This is not to say that you should be a pig with no social mores but being polite and being rude should be choices that you deliberately make. There is no reason to go along with pretending that you aren't annoyed by someone, it's a submissive thing to do anyway.

Another good thing to do is acknowledge the full reality of a situation...

Example: Douchfag: LOL unsubtle barb directed at achilles.

Achilles: As much as I enjoy the rather unsubtle insults you're directing at me I'd prefer it if you just fucked off if you're unhappy in my company.

Douchfag: !

In so doing the DF has only three options. 1) Outright threaten you Bad idea - it makes him look like a nutcase, he loses frame and gets in serious trouble.

2) Follow your suggestion at fucking off. Instant win, you can calibrate the term "fuck off" if you cant get away with actual profanity but a simple go away I dont like you is hard to recover from.

3) Remain there quietly/take further digs at you/appeal to the crowd. These all involve staying engaged with your group while trying to attack you without escalating too much. If he stands there in silence then he's going to be treated as awkward by everyone there. If he takes further digs at you just respond by directly and bluntly insulting him while continuing to demand he leave because "he is only causing trouble here". He might well appeal to the crowd with something like "OOOooo someone got out of the wrong side of bed today", do not allow the crowd to make a judgement and don't be afraid to make a point of refusing to be led away from the reality of the situation which is that someone is attacking you to benefit socially. Stick to your guns... "I got up on the left side of bed today but no matter which side I don't like cunts making snide comments at my expense so fuck off".

This works best when it is a stark contrast with peoples normal experience of you. The stories told later go "Wow achilles is normally so polite and reserved but he tore DF a new asshole in front of everyone, it was painful to watch". You should be wrathful rather than angry, imperious rather than snobbish. Good luck.

CreamyBruceLee · 2014-11-24T18:44:36+00:00

Law #1

"Never Outshine The Master"

Let him be for now, in fact compliment him. Reframe yourself in his mind, not as a competing Alpha, but as his subordinate. For now at least. Use your enemies. After a while he will come to you for advice or favors, accept them for what they are worth. Soon you may see he is dependent on you for emotional validation. Learn his secrets. All the while, continue to improve yourself (become more "competent" as you say).

Then when the timing seems right, play him like the fiddle he is. Crush him totally and completely. Pull a power move (start ignoring him, call him out on the shit you learned about him) and watch as his world crumbles before him as he becomes the passive-aggressive beta who cant control his emotions. Leaving a vacuum in which you step in.

You cannot be the AMOG of EVERY group ALL the time, but you can become it with enough willpower, control, and time.

You could try this, its a little Machavellian, but it might be easier for you in the current circumstance.

Happy Hunting

**Caveat: Of course if you end up liking the guy and hes a great wing man, than there's no point in crucifying the poor guy. The greatest enemies can become the most loyal friends.

teeelo · 2014-11-24T21:12:48+00:00

Hmm. He's following you around?

Go somewhere boring and shitty with no action, then turn the tides and start following him around a bit.

Give him a taste of his own bullshit, fuck up his frame until he sees that he is just screwing himself over being around you.

Also, ignoring him and not letting yourself get phased work wonders

This guy does not sound like an Alpha, he sounds like a fucking clown.

FuKaKo · 2014-11-24T01:35:04+00:00

If you think I wrote something you consider to be not true, then why do you need to care, right? You continue to do your things if what I wrote is of no concern to you. If it is not, then, by all means, you get influenced just by some little words, as you can see. Is this an act of a man in control I ask.

VarsitySlutTeamCpt · 2014-11-24T07:53:59+00:00

It's easy. Use him. Be on his team, his cheerleader, encourage him therefore you get to have a bit of attention as a byproduct. You become the puppeteer.

OKJaded · 2014-11-24T06:32:32+00:00

Joking around with each other is something I do with some friends. One friend gets all butt hurt if you make fun of him... which make it so much more fun and a common target.

Stop letting it get to you. You don't have to see him as an adversary. Join in on his shenanigans. Make him your ally. Learn to get along with (or at least fake it) with anyone.

Remember "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt, red pill woman?

RedPillSafe · 2014-11-24T02:09:48+00:00

"Wolfpack 101"

Laugh and snarl with equal veracity as your peers.

When you share his mind you share his team.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxjCJxfECD8

BluepillProfessor · 2014-11-24T01:16:27+00:00

If you need to ask the price, you can't afford it.

If you need to ask how to be in control, you can't ever have it.

Title	I find it difficult to maintain my frame in the presence of loud alpha males (they can easily get me annoyed, and feed on my negative reactions). I am OK otherwise, so how do I deal with this?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	41
Comments	76
Date	November 24, 2014 1:12 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2n7uqh/i_find_it_difficult_to_maintain_my_frame_in_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/i-find-it-difficult-to-maintain-my-frame-in-the.25327 https://theredarchive.com/post/25327

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