Just need advice, I guess.

SarcasticCock · 2012-10-23T11:18:06+00:00

misogynistic and a women hater.

Tell her you can't be a misogynist because you still lover her, even if she's a feminist.

She ended up in tears

Who's the adult in this situation?

2012-10-23T16:51:03+00:00

Do not discuss feminism with her ever again. Do not take guidance or advice from her anymore.

She probably has done serious damage or attempted to nullify your masculinity while raising you. The sad thing is that feminists with sons will sacrifice their masculinity for the good of the sisterhood. You are merely a casualty in their fight and she does NOT have your best interests in mind. She cannot as her nature is one of sickness and delusion.

Find your own path, separate from this feminist overlord and go forth with the strength to find your own concept of positive masculinity. Good luck.

The_Patriarchy · 2012-10-23T14:54:56+00:00

If you live with her, you'd probably be better off just pretending you agree with her until you can move out and support yourself. Good luck.

EpicJ · 2012-10-23T11:44:54+00:00

Tell her you are egalitarian or think women should have equal rights but feminism and it's ways are not the ways to go about it.

She then just went on an outrageous outburst telling me off for be misogynistic and a women hater

She ended up in tears and grounded me

These are signs of using emotional/psychological control and are forms of abuse

Punishment: includes nagging, yelling, the silent treatment, intimidation, threats, swearing, emotional blackmail, the guilt trip, sulking, crying, and playing the victim.

Hamakua · 2012-10-23T22:04:04+00:00

First and foremost

Feminist =/= woman

Feminists =/= women

Feminism doesn't speak for all women.

Being critical, disagreeing with, or even hating feminism does not mean you hate women. There are many rights and even privileges that feminism was instrumental in obtaining on behalf of women that are good and positive. It is argued they would have arrived anyway (like voting) but that is beside the point. You can be against feminism and be for policies feminism is also for.

There are many things Feminism lies about in order to preserve power. There are times where Feminism will throw women under the bus in order to preserve its power. There are many many examples of Feminism being instrumental in the legislative and political harming of men in a sexist fashion, meaning no other criteria, other than men being men, is used in their oppression or imposed disadvantage.

The above a basic truths that she either is unaware of or ignored because she is using emotional thinking to justify her stance.

My mother is also was/is a feminist and we have had in-depth conversations all my life. My mother also is very intelligent and when I started to expose her to the issues of the MRM she heard me out and understands why I hate feminism. She absolutely understands that I am not against issues that help women, she is a big believer in accountability and responsibility, which feminism, if you dig a little deeper than the surface, is against...well, they are patently for accountability and responsibility for men, and patently against accountability and responsibility for women.

2012-10-23T17:55:20+00:00

She can't ground you. That would be a case of a female having power over a male, and clearly the family unit is a patriarchy.

Caelamid · 2012-10-23T11:35:07+00:00

If this is the case of an emotional conversation just gotten out of hand, well.. In this case it's probably best to clear the issue all at once to the best of your ability after the initial cool down period. In the case of a child/mother situation wherein the child is grounded for an opinion.. probably best to get all the groundings out at once instead of repeatedly bringing it up after the fact and potentially revisiting the consequences.

Points to bring up: Being "against" the feminist movement carries the implication that you believe the opposite of what the stated beliefs of the feminist movement are.. better phrasing perhaps being.. "I don't agree with..." whatever.

Or.. stress the importance of addressing issues fairly and equally across genders. If any given action helps men.. and also helps women, it doesn't help women any less by helping men.

If you hear any talk of privileges or the patriarchy.. You're going to need stronger weapons than reason and "a desire to see fair and equal treatment".. And I can't help with that.

rightsbot · 2012-10-23T11:12:18+00:00

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oneiorosgrip · 2012-10-23T13:38:31+00:00

Okay... dealing with irrationality from a parent is a different issue than dealing with an irrational stranger, especially when you're still a minor, and you live with the person who just displayed irrationality.

No matter how much right you have to your opinion, your beliefs, and your knowledge and understanding, and no matter how right you are, your parents are still going to be your parents. What I'm seeing here is a difference between arguing a situation or circumstance (such as whether her views affect permission for you do do things or her rules for how you date, work, etc.,) and just arguing ideology.

Example: There are many wonderful, awesome things about my parents, but they are old, and traditional, and have a religious aversion to (not an active opposition, just a belief against) any alternative to straight sexuality (which is a nice way of saying they're passive homophobes.) I'm bi, and they don't know that even now that I'm 40 and a mom. I have no reason to discuss it with them - no relationship that they're trying to keep me from having, no action they're stopping me from doing, and nothing they are doing that I think needs to be addressed. I don't even discuss sexuality issues with them at all, because there is no circumstance under which it would be either necessary or productive.

They're not suddenly going to change their minds on sexuality issues just because their daughter doesn't fit their ideology. No matter what logic I present, it isn't going to counter their bible verses and rhetoric, and they are not going to let those go. They aren't start voting for candidates on the basis of gay rights. They're not going to change my nature, either, but they might feel compelled to try, out of fear of imagined consequences they'd think I'll face. It would really be a pointless discussion leading to a pointless (and endless) argument, which would accomplish nothing and result in an unending and pointless aggravation between us. At the same time, they are aware that I do not agree with their views on religion and sexuality. They do not try to debate me on those topics, either, as they know they are not going to change my outlook, and they want the time they get to spend with me to be enjoyable. We don't avoid every topic on which we disagree, but why pursue an unresolvable conflict? That's kind of like poking a stick at a honey bee's nest. Nothing good will come of it.

That's not to say that I've given up on them - I do drop subtle logic bombs when opportunity presents itself. Over the course of time, I've gotten them to acknowledge that while they and others have every right to refrain from living a life they consider wrong, it would be equally wrong for them to force a straight lifestyle on others. They've agreed with me that it's wrong to attack people for being gay, to discriminate at work or academically against an individual on the basis of how he or she lives at home, or to harass people over disagreement with their adult choices. A person's sexuality would still affect whether my parents ask him or her to babysit for the grandkids, but they wouldn't deliberately antagonize anyone on that basis. And they wouldn't vote for a candidate who advocated prosecuting people for consensual homosexual sex acts, either, where once, they might have. They aren't perfect... but they have progressed in that they don't support interfering with the lives of others on the basis of their religious ideology.

While political ideology is not exactly the same, it can be similar. Feminism is like a religion in its doctrines, and in the resistance of a mind which has become attached to those doctrines to direct confrontation. Your situation with your mom's beliefs may be very similar to my situation with those of my parents. She's probably about my age (you're between the ages of my kids) and if she's gotten this old without figuring out the fallacies of feminism, she has probably cemented her views by applying her reactions to her life experiences as reinforcing "evidence" of the validity of her ideology, just as my parents have with their beliefs on sexuality. That would lead her to believe that failure to adhere to her ideology will lead you to suffer negative social and possibly legal consequences, so part of her reaction to your announcement was likely fear. Parents often present fear as anger when arguing with their kids. It's a way of using the exercise of authority to force the kid away from perceived dangers. It's not always the right thing to do, but it is a natural response, and it's one you're not going to counter with logic and reason when it's triggered by a belief that is not based in either.

Which leads to my point here - pick your battles. Don't initiate head-on confrontations with your parents over their ideology right now, because that won't be productive. You can have yours, and let them have theirs, and that's fine. You have 3 years left to be under parental custody. After that, you're legally responsible for yourself, and you don't have to depend on anyone else's judgement to make your decisions. If things are really bad at home, and it's not just this one argument, consider whether living with someone else is a possibility (you haven't mentioned your Dad, which makes me suspect he's not a part of your household, but also doesn't say anything about the feasibility or lack of the option of a residential custody switch.) At your age, a lot of area judges will take your concerns into account when making a decision on where you live. If things are not really bad, don't sweat the small stuff. You're not going to agree with your parents on everything. No one does that.

You have the other possible choice to simply use the next 3 years as a learning experience, rather than making it an adversarial experience. Though the ideology itself is fundamentally flawed, take a look at the aspects of your mom's life that contribute to her adherence to it. You may find that even though the lessons your mom has learned have led her to conclusions with which you disagree, they're still valuable lessons on how to relate to others. Though they may not lead to you relating the same way, things your mom has learned about people in general can contribute to how you do choose to relate.

Focusing on school and on building the adult you're going to be, and on honing your logic and reason, can also all be positive ways for you to deal with your situation. Bide your time and observe, rather than trying to teach an old dog new tricks while she's still in charge of your life. Learn at home what you are going to face in society, and how to navigate around the application of feminist ideology, because right now, it permeates the society in which you are going to live. Have a plan for what you are going to do next (more school, job, whatever) and work toward that... Let your mom's ideology be hers, and save your arguments for things which more directly impact on you.

In the meantime, understand that it's not your mom's generation who is going to shape your world. It's yours. We're the main generation in action right now, but by the time you have kids who are the age you are now, a good portion of Gen-X will be getting old and starting to retire, with our welfare dependent upon the decisions your generation makes in politics and business.

Arm yourself with knowledge to use in debate with others. Build a mental (and physical) portfolio of facts - there's a lot to be found in the sidebar here, and there are frequently bits and pieces posted in articles and comments, as well. Learn to cite and name the logical fallacies people employ when holding onto an irrational belief. (The Skeptic's Dictionary has a good set of explanations in its critical thinking section.) Be ready to influence the people who are entering the age of political and social power, and let your actions and your life become something that might pull your mom along into a more logical mindset, rather than trying to force the issue.

Last thing - when you are my age, don't think even for a minute that you know everything. Even when you're 80, you still won't know everything. And at 15, even though you're passionate about what you believe, understand that your outlook on life and your belief system should be constantly evolving around a core set of principles. Don't get so attached to an ideology - any ideology - that you cannot apply new information combined with logic and reason as a means of refining your outlook. That failure in a lot of people is how society ended up with the mess we're in now. There will never be a time in your life when you don't have anything to learn. It's how you use those things that determines whether your impact will make you part of the problem, or part of the solution.

Sorry for the wall of text. I don't have a tl;dr for this that wouldn't leave out something I thought was important. >_<

mikesteane · 2012-10-24T03:09:40+00:00

Use this as an opportunity for learning. As a general rule, you cannot convince people of anything they don't want to be convinced of merely by reasoning. Time may cure the underlying problem, but reasoning will not.

It takes a fair amount of discipline to do, but you might, just as an exercise, try questioning your mum at length and NOT making any statements yourself. Let her talk. Let her talk. Question something.

I once saw this process in action over a period of about two hours. an atheist sim0ly questioned a Christian on his beliefs and led the latter to the conclusion that belief in his faith means believing that people who, by nature of being born into a different religion, are not saved by Christ will be eternally punished for the fact. The injustice of this did not need pointing out and I am sure the Christian, who did not lose face, will have a better chance of re-considering than if he had been directly confronted with opposing views.

The same applies to feminists. Do not attempt to point out inconsistencies and contradictions, merely ask questions that lead to incompatible answers and leave it at that.

ErasmusMRA · 2012-10-23T19:22:59+00:00

Where is your father in all this?

iggybdawg · 2012-10-23T22:58:41+00:00

First, go read the book No More Mr Nice Guy.

I'm long moved out of my mom's house, and she's not a strong feminist, so it's not as tense. But I find that arguing the specific topics with her (male circumcision, due process for those accused of rape) without mentioning the word feminism or feminist works much better.

2012-10-23T15:29:13+00:00

Read the following information carefully, son: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001924/

Your mother may be a potential danger to herself and others. Not trying to alarm you. Only notifying you of the possibility. Many women are borderline/bipolars. Often it just makes them whiney, bitchy and annoying, but in extreme cases they can be very irrational and violent.

I would keep an eye on her behavior and call the authorities if needed. Otherwise, dont bring up the subject of man/woman issues and avoid it like the plague if she brings it up.

Skill up and get work. Save every penny. When its lawful and you are ready, get as far away from her as possible as fast as possible before she sucks every ounce of life out of you.

DerickBurton · 2012-10-23T15:37:33+00:00

Phone child protection services and report her for being abusive.

Title	Just need advice, I guess.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	5
Comments	36
Date	October 23, 2012 11:11 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11xvgs/just_need_advice_i_guess/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-need-advice-i-guess.1010725 https://theredarchive.com/post/1010725

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