Evidently domestic violence only happens to women in Verizon's world.

[–][deleted] 104 points105 points106 points 12 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

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[–]cutcoguru 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

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[–]cutcoguru 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

And attitudes like this have no place in the MRM.

For the past 40 years, myself and other DV survivors out there have been treated like a combination of urban myths, perpetual liars and cheap filthy sluts individuals such as yourself engaging in domestic violence apologetics and misandry - by either perpetuating the lie that where domestic violence is concerned "all perpetrators are male; all abusers are female" or by treating advocacy to educate people that domestic violence is an ungendered crime as a 'champagne issue'.

The fact is that photos like this merely reinforce in people's minds the notion that men are never victims and always abusers- which in turn merely reinforces the stigmas which those of us who are survivors are either at fault for "being beaten up by a girl" or 'failing to "man up" about it'; alternatively we're perceived as perpetual liars; alternatively we're perceived as the real abusers who were abused "in an act of self defence".

If it was common knowledge that women inflicted domestic violence upon men and with equally lsting effects, as often as men inflicted domestic violence upon women, then you might actually have a point here - however we're not even remotely close to that point yet.

As it stands though, all you've demonstrated here is that when it comes to the issues of male IPV victims and female IPV perpetrators, your finger is well and truly off the pulse and well and truly up your ass.

[–]Landarchist 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]xzxzzx 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think either of you are being fair to the other.

Yes, one photo isn't enough to crucify the company in question, and it's very encouraging that their program doesn't just target women.

On the other hand, the societal pressures to show only women as victims of DV/sexual violence/etc are very real, and the problems that they create, particularly for male victims, and particularly when men find themselves victimized by a woman, should not be dismissed.

Can you imagine how many men are out there, feeling like there's something wrong with him, how he's the only man "weak enough" to be abused by a woman, how he assumes there's no help for him, how he assumes that even the police would just laugh at him (and in some scenarios, he's even right...)

It's very conspicuous to show four women as DV victims. Your economics textbook isn't going to show a hermaphrodite shopper; they have to pick one gender, so in that context, you're right, it'd be silly to infer something from one photo. This isn't the same, yet it's not entirely different either; perhaps it's difficult to get a poster with men and women to send the right message, and they have a number of different posters.

However, all that said, you can see the clear focus of their program from all of their media. Try and find a single story about a adult male victim of abuse. As usual, male victims are almost completely absent from everything--they only count if they were a child at the time. The closest I found was a picture of a man (a model) on the front page.

[–]cutcoguru 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Landarchist 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

And you've proven my point in spades. If you consider yourself ny kind of MRA, crawl out of the rock you've clearly been under and actully educate yourself.

Your posts have demonstrated a sheer ignorance of the politics of domestic violence, the challenges which battered men face - including acess to services and the stigma they face, or the heavy feminist influence in the above and legislation like VAWA.

I'm not going to go into details becuse, quite frankly, I shouldn't have to. If you are any kind of genuine MRA you should be aware of the politics of this subject or if not, at least have the inclination to find out.

Furthermore between SAVE, the One in Three Campaign and several other sources, you have no excuse for being so utterly ignorant of the issues at play here.

The fact is your argument was a crock of shit and utterly devoid of common sense. Despite what you wanted to make it out to be based on your example; taking issue with this photo is anything but spliting hairs, and is about the very real issue of how domestic violence is perceived by society at large and the fact that approaches like this only further entrench the perception that domestic violence is only perpetuated upon women by men.

It would be one thing is this was some radical feminist group like White Ribbon who are utterly misandrist domestic violence apologists, however this is a group ther supposedly helps battered men and so therefore it has no excuse for being ignorant of the stigmas and stereotypes which battered men face - much less for perpetuating them.

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Which makes their claims of helping battered men a complete crock of shit!

No, that's not the case at all. If they put an image of 4 men up on their advertisement, the public is likely to look at it and think "Oh, well okay then." But the women invoke a need to help from the general public.

That's the difference here. It's not Verizon's fault that society treats male victims of domestic violence as "collateral damage," as you very succinctly put it. That's an issue with society. However, what I feel like Verizon is doing here is to use the image of abused women to get as much awareness as they can, and then distribute whatever donations they get. If they can't even get any donations, then they can't help anyone at all.

Like I said before, not ideal, but life doesn't exactly live according to ideals.

[–]cutcoguru -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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If you think it's nonsense, you're not getting it. Maybe it was negligent as opposed to deliberate, however the fact remains that either way, this sign is part of the problem - a problem you are choosing to be willfully ignorant about.

The fact is that female-on-male domestic violence campaigns have thrived by either pretending that male domestic violence victims don't exist, or by pretending that all men, (including victims/survivors), are abusers and that all women (including abusers), are victims.

If we were at a point in time where people saw men and women interchangibly as abusers or victims, then you'd have a valid point. However we're not even close to that point in terms of public perceptions and as such, your entire argument here is a complete fallacy.

The fact is that this sign, by being completely devoid of men (heck I'd have been happy with even one of those pictured being male), merely reinforces that public perception that the only perpetrators of domestic violence are male and the only victims of domestic violence are female.

Regardless of whether the choice of photo was accidental or deliberate, the net result is identical - that it simply further entrenches the stereotype and in turn, further entrenches the stereotypes which those of us who are survivors have to deal with. For nyone claiming to be an MRA, that shouldn't be an acceptable state of affairs.

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]cutcoguru -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You sound like a modern feminist.

Highly ironic considering that you don't sound like any kind of MRA here.

Female on male violence is a real issue, in never said it is not.

And yet you've completely ignored the politics of domestic violence here as well as public perception.

The picture in the OP is not a real issue (as has been said, its only a stock ad pic, they help all victims equally and acknowledge the existence of male victims). It certainly is not worth being on the frontpage of this sub.

Which is an utterly fallacious assertion to make in light of public perceptions of female-on-male domestic violence - perceptions I might add which the feminist movement has only entrenched.

You bring up the fact that this charity helps male victims, yet this picture is an example of them failing in that endeavour. If you stopped to think about it for a minute, you would see just how such an approach does anything but help. You have failed consider bettered men who might see that pic and the affect it has compared to if it featured at least one man there in terms of starting toquestion whether what they are going through is abuse. You fail to consider the impact it might have on someone who might actually have the penny drop when it comes to someone they know who is being abused, encouraging them to do something about it. You have completely failed to consider the impact on a battered man who might be on the look for services, and upon seeing that poster, draws the conclusion that they only help women.

That's the rub here - in terms of outreach, in terms of advocacy, this public advertisement is a complete disservice to battered men.

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[–]xzxzzx 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

cutcoguru is bad at making his point (sorry cutcoguru, you are--your conversations have devolved into shouting matches, and it's largely due to your rhetoric), but he does have one.

Here's something I wrote above that may give you the flavor of where cutcoguru is coming from.

Can you imagine how many men are out there, feeling like there's something wrong with him, how he's the only man "weak enough" to be abused by a woman, how he assumes there's no help for him, how he assumes that even the police would just laugh at him (and in some scenarios, he's even right...)

Domestic violence is a serious problem for men, and it's largely perpetuated because of people "erasing" male victims. It's so pervasive that some people won't even believe a man who says he's abused. Feminists will say "out of all my friends, I know X women who've been abused, but none of the men..."--and they're right. They don't know about the abuse of the men, and neither does almost anyone else, because it's incredibly difficult to get help as a male abuse victim.

And that has everything to do with society's perspective on the problem, which is largely shaped by posters just like these.

I'm not calling for their head on a spike; their program does help men, and even in a bit of text acknowledges that abuse of men is not so rare, and that's laudable. But it shouldn't be. It should be expected; indeed it should be shocking to find a national DV organization dedicated to a single gender. Someday we'll get there.

[–]cutcoguru 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

xzxzzx, here's the thing though - and it really is a glaring indictment of everyone I've gone up against in this thread: I'm one of those men.

If a female survivors encountered this sort of genuine sexism in such a vile way and were angry about it, would anyone tell them they were being ridiculous, or would they be met with chants of "you tell 'em sister!"?

Yet apparently, even on a Men's Rights board, it has to be pointed out that that anger is justified. It says alot and none of it flattering.

Incidentally, I'm hardly calling for their head on a spike either - I just believe whoever commissioned and authorised these posters needs a stern dressing down and to be made to have to spend time with male survivors and groups like SAVE so that they understand just why erasing battered men from the picture is ultimately no no better than coming out and claiming that only men are abusers and only women are victims - due to how these posters conflate with such messages in the minds of the general public.

[–]xzxzzx 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm one of those men.

I'm sorry to hear that. And I know it must be incredibly frustrating seeing other MRAs be so dismissive--they seem to be the enemy, doing exactly the same thing most people do about abuse of a man--some version of "it's not important for people to know that there are many men who are being abused". At least here nobody is explicitly denying the prevalence of male abuse victims.

Nevertheless, your rhetoric is the only thing the other person knows about you, and if you want to communicate effectively, you have to avoid the me vs. you sort of attitude that can so easily dominate emotionally charged subjects like this.

I'm not saying don't be angry. I'm just saying that attempting to step back, be inclusive, consider where the other person is coming from, to share your view as to why this is important without accusing the other person of anything--each of these will help you communicate while avoiding the conflict that makes your writing so ineffective for people who don't understand what the big deal is.

If you want, sharing what society had implicitly taught you about male abuse when you could've used help, and how that negatively affected your life--well, that's a very good way of making people realize what effects their denial or ignorance of the importance of letting abused men they aren't alone, that abuse of men is a widespread problem, etc.

[–]cutcoguru 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I get hwere you're coming from, but doesn't the responses to my responses just highlight how many individuals who claim to be MRAs are devoid of the very compassion and empathy which is needed in addressing men's rights issues.

What I have said might have come across as "me vs you", however it was also a statement of fact and in this situation, it is pretty black and white. On one hand, people can take a pro-men's rights stance, where they demonstrate compassion and empathy for battered men - including a recognition of how this at best, case of negligence compounds the plight of battered men.

Alternatively they can take an anti-men's rights stance where they treat the issue of domestic violence men and the politics surrounding it as trivial.

It really is that black and white.

Furthermore people see a man getting angry and all too often, dismiss him as "some nutter", yet such a response is utterly devoid of compasion and empathy for men. The question should always be asked "why is this guy angry?" "does this guy have a perfectly good reason to be angry?"

Yet those who have been adversarial with me have been devoid of said empathy and compassion. It's highly telling of the difference between those who are actually MRAs and those who merely claim to be. Those who have been guilty of this divide in this thread and elsewhere and wish the case were otherwise, clearly have some soul searching to do.

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Title	Evidently domestic violence only happens to women in Verizon's world.
Author	b_kraken
Upvotes	246
Comments	79
Date	August 1, 2013 1:36 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1jgpja/evidently_domestic_violence_only_happens_to_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/evidently-domestic-violence-only-happens-to-women.1167457 https://theredarchive.com/post/1167457

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