The Church

Goamoth · 2020-12-14T17:11:38+00:00

I think churches that focuses on God, inter relationships with brothers & sisters, accountability and drive for growth are the ones that succeed in their mission. This is a church I’m apart of and the close family relationships is what drew me in. They are loosely affiliated with the church of Christ but are predominantly non denomination. We take Acts 2:42-47 and Matthew 18: 16-20 very seriously and try to live them out daily.

We believe surrendering to Christ can transform people’s lives and we see plenty of examples of how members use to Live and how they live now.

My Church growing up, had good teachings, and my dad was a sub pastor, nothing there appealed to me. They lose a lot of kids after high school.

The “only church on Sunday’s” crowd and nothing else are doomed.

Red-Curious · 2020-12-15T06:30:44+00:00

The Church is not a lost cause. The local congregational structure is. There are many "congregations" that are popping up nowadays, abandoning the traditional structure for something more biblical - and they're finding FAR more converts than the norm. Bryan Sanders' book Underground Church is an example of this, though it's far from perfect.

If you want to build something biblical, and you agree that Jesus is the head of the Church, then you agree we should follow Jesus' model, not the historical model that evolved from 300AD onward, right? So let's look at what Jesus did and emulate that.

Example 1: Jesus had a large crowd constantly following him, so you should try to build a large crowd to follow and listen to you too, right? Wrong. Jesus didn't try to build a crowd. He discipled 12 guys and was so influential in his community engagement that the crowds wouldn't leave him alone. I can't remember one single passage where Jesus told anyone, "Go get some people together to hear me preach." I do see numerous times where he leaves the crowds to focus on his 12. If you want to live in the model Jesus gave, don't neglect the crowds when they come, but don't make them your priority.

Example 2: In the same vein, Jesus' core ministry model was to disciple 12 guys and let them do all the ministering for him outward from there. So, if you want to follow in his model - who are the 12 guys in your congregation. Are they your elders? Close friends? Either way, are you spending time with them the same way Jesus did? Or are you just trying to drive content to them? Too many so-called "pastors" get hung up on teaching content that they forget that relationships were the vehicle through which Jesus gave that content. Are you hanging out in the upper room with your buddies in your congregation? Are you chatting with them while you walk from place to place? Are you giving them opportunities to watch your life and then to try practicing in front of you the things you've modeled for them? These are all things Jesus did.

Example 3: If you really want to stick out from the crowd and go biblical, ditch the "3-5 songs, 30-45 minute sermon, then announcements" ritualism that didn't exist until the 300s AD, and also abandon the "NOBODY better talk while I'M preaching!" lunacy and recognize the fact that (a) most times Jesus teaches crowds, he's interacting with the crowd and asking questions - and there was a culture that KNEW this was acceptable rather than feeling awkward and uncomfortable about it, and (b) when the apostles are engaging with crowds and even local communities in peoples' homes, we see them interacting with the people and not just preaching at them. The very fact that Paul has to tell women to be silent during meetings is evidence, in itself, that people were talking openly during these meetings - he just wanted to make sure family authority structures weren't undermined in this process, as is happening readily today.

Example 4: If you catch on to the whole "focus on your 12" (or however many is feasible for you) and "make disciples" concept, are you teaching them to pass on what they see in your life so that they're not only living it in their own also, but they're also passing it on to their friends, wives, children, etc.? Remember Jesus' prayer in John 17 - "My prayer is not for them only, but also for those who will believe because of them." Jesus was always looking generations ahead - and I can quote several other passages where Jesus and the apostles affirm this concept.

Really, the best thing you can do is to look at what Jesus did - not through the coloration of cultural norms that you're used to because that's what everyone else does. Really look at the Bible and ask yourself: "Did Jesus sing songs before he preached a sermon? Did the disciples do this or even request or expect it? Or is that just something that seemed to work for some, but isn't necessarily a biblical mandate?" And if it's not a biblical mandate, REALLY second-guess yourself on it, because my guess is that if you find yourself wanting to do things that aren't biblically necessary, it's most likely because you're trying to draw a crowd, which will only be a distraction for you, drawing your attention away from living out what Jesus actually did. The entire Sunday serve structure in itself is founded on cultural premises without a biblical foundation - and ironically so when people who bash Catholics for being married to tradition are guilty of the exact same thing in the way they structure and organize their regular meetings without looking to Jesus and the apostles as their foundation.

Lots, lots, lots more to say on this. I'm going to encourage you to hop into the discord for more chat on this topic (invite link in the sidebar). Perhaps we could even have a walk-and-talk that I could post on the YouTube channel so everyone can benefit from such a conversation, as I think this discussion is more significant that just you or me. And I've already got a few congregation leaders who are starting to catch on to some of these things and adjust their models.

/u/TheChristianAlpha, for example, connected me with his congregation leader at one point. In the chat we discussed discipleship and structure, who concluded that instead of rows to face a singular speaker, they create circles and the meeting is a conversational event. I know a congregation leader in my own area who has done the same thing. I shared with him a lot of the same things and now his body is focused on engaging with one another rather than listening silently to a singular speaker. Yes, there are still teachers. And it's obvious in these types of bodies who the "endorsed contributors" are (i.e. who has authority to teach) from those who are merely sharing their experiences, and yet even others who are there to ask questions, learn, and grow (as all, theoretically, are doing also). It's beautiful to watch these congregations - and I've seen it happen even in bodies of 500+ - it doesn't just have to be small little plants. It just takes more effort to create an artificially small atmosphere in a genuinely large gathering space. But is that effort worthwhile to you?

Again, lots more. Let's keep the chat up, if you're interested.

downfortheround · 2020-12-14T20:38:39+00:00

Not sure this would be characterized as the feminization of the church. I remember a guest pastor at Saddleback (southern california) talk about how men should forgive their cheating wife. Yes, this can be an option but sometimes it isnt. The way I interpreted his sermon , he was borderline saying that women are victims and in doing so, not giving women any agency in their decision making process. This pastor never mentioned infidelity as grounds for divorce according to the Bible. Imagine the pastor telling women to forgive their cheating husband as the only viable option. This would never happen. This is something that really upset me. If you are going to tell men to be open to forgiving your cheating spouse, how about you also tell women to do the same.

sarmstro1968 · 2020-12-14T19:49:24+00:00

I am thankful Godly men like you are asking such questions. WhereProgressIsMade made some great points. All I would add is

I love my church, serve there, love the people like family but leadership frequently reads the Bible out of context, as if they Google'd it & build a sermon on it - even when they're summary of it runs contrary to other scriptures.
- I wish we'd simply read the Bible. Start @ Genesis & proceed. Would not miss a minute of it when we hit Song of Solomon! ;-)
- No more sermons on creating a better life but how about something related to the chaos going on in our country & how we should respond as Christian men.
- Also wish someone had balls enough to discuss Maccabees from the pulpit.
Mother's day sermon = mother's are awesome - Father's day sermon = how to deal with bad fathers ruining your image of God. Nearly walked out that day.
Was told in a sermon that the tithe is love. Literally. This is where I'd like to diverge a little & point out a larger problem....
- Most churches get the tithe wrong (read Deut 14.22) & it has disempowered Christians' ability to give & to be a blessing to their community. The tithe was to be consumed by the tither but once every 3 years brought to the local storehouse, which a Levite managed for the needy & poor.
- And think of Jesus' greatest commandment, Love God & love your neighbor as yourself - notice He didn't say another continent or community - but your neighbor.
- Of course, I'm not saying we should not give to churches, but the tithe is a blessing to man, not a burden but most churches have made it that, something very similar to what the Pharisees did.

OsmiumZulu · 2020-12-14T23:31:02+00:00

Good question.

The church in the West is thoroughly feminized. As a fellow Reformed believer I have been disappointed to find that "our guys" are not much better off in this area. Despite their firm belief that they have a firm handle on the issue, most thought leaders within the Reformed community have swallowed many feminist presuppositions that impact their view of scripture, the church, and the world. They foolishly think that being to the right of Jon Piper or Tim Keller makes them an "edgy" dissident when they are more than likely still to the left of center.

Knowing A Tree By Its Fruit...

Jack Donovan wrote that many men are good men, but not good at being men. This is the sin of the modern church in the West. I've had to move many times in my adult life and have done more "church shopping" than most. After screening the statements of faith on their website to determine if they even bother to read scripture, this is how the first visit typically goes:

Show up and get greeted by women. Men in jerseys talk about sportsball over coffee. Get ushered to a seat by a woman. Look around a congregation and take note of how out of shape all the men (and women) are. The worship team takes the stage. Best case the worship leader looks like a lumberjack metro-sexual, most of the time he just looks totally effeminate if not gay. Most of the rest of the band is made up of women. Sing repetitive, emotive, theologically shallow, love songs to Jesus. Most of the songs are sung at a high enough octave meant for female voices that a lot of men can't really sing along. In a decent church we'll corporately confess our sins and stand for the reading of God's word.

Pastor takes the stage. His demeanor is uninspiring, he clearly doesn't lift, and dresses casually. Nothing about his appearance makes me want to be like him. Then he opens his mouth and confirms it with self deprecating jokes and wife worship. He makes it a point to explain how lucky he is that she was stupid enough to marry him. Sermon goes on for a half hour to forty five minutes. He preaches to the lowest understanding in the room to make his sermon approachable. I predict where he is going to go before he goes there 9/10 times because the sermon is recycled content from The Gospel Coalition or something equally devoid of challenging substance.

The sermon ends and we do whatever bizarre take on communion that church happens to subscribe to. Since we're not Catholics we definitely don't just use wine and bread like Jesus said. We sing a couple more lullabies before mingling with the congregation, around 70% of which is made up of women and children. No one is discussing the content of the sermon because there really wasn't any. At best I hear some guy says something positive about a recently acquired firearm or some other equally cliche talisman of manhood that requires little to nothing in the way of actually demonstrating or possessing vitality or masculinity.

The question I ask myself over and again is: What sort of men does this produce? The answer: domesticated, weak, useless men. That is the "fruit" of modern church in the West, including "conservative" or "traditional" churches.

What to do about it?

Foremost, pastors seem to be uncertain about who church is for: is it for the masses of unwashed sinners out there or for the people of God? There was little confusion about this until modern times: Church is for Christians and for the worship of God. Period. Sure, non-Christians should be welcome to visit, but nothing about the experience ought to cater to them. Further, Christianity is inherently and irreducibly patriarchal. The church is primarily for men and their women and kids. The modern church has forgotten this.

The sermons on Sunday should expect something of the listener, such as basic biblical literacy and familiarity with Christian theology. Use big words. Men are repulsed by being spoken down to, and those that aren't are not the kind of men with opinions worth caring about. Be controversial and divisive. Jesus was. Men want and need to be pushed. Arguments and push back are good because it shows they are alive and paying attention. If you aren't saying anything that will piss some people off you probably aren't saying what Jesus said.

Who you put in front of the congregation matters, from the greeters to the worship band. Like it or not, they inevitably set a bar and that bar should be one for men to aspire to. If I walked into a church and was greeted by burly men who give firm handshakes, sang meaty battle songs about the inevitable victory of Christ and his church lead by a guy who looks like he wouldn't be a liability in a real battle, and was preached to by a pastor who was an inspiring man who seemed to genuinely understand and promote masculinity, it would be hard to not feel welcome and appreciated as a man.

I would go so far as to say deacons and all serving in the church should be done by men unless it is a clearly feminine activity. Create a situation where if men don't show up, things don't get done. Men need to feel as though they are participating in the success or failure of a church. Call on them to do more and only after the men are tapped out should women be called upon to serve in roles that men could or should be doing.

Don't tear down Christian heroes

Heroes inspire men. Period. 300 was a hit movie among men because it was celebratory of masculinity; virtue, honor, sacrifice. Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Andrew Jackson, the list goes on. Men need heroes.

BLM and Antifa didn't need to tear down the "statues" of Christianity; the Church already did.

Listen to a sermon on David, or Abraham, or Samson, take your pick of masculine man in the Bible and what do you hear?

"So and so appeared to have some admirable qualities, sure, but ultimately they were an evil horrid rotten sinner heathen backsliding good for nothing coward soaked in perversity. No, the real story of "so and so" is not that they were righteous or worth emulating, but that God can have mercy and save even that big of a f*** up. The only man worth looking up to in any way is Jesus."

Sorry, I don't buy it. The Hall of Faith in Hebrews exists for a reason. David was a man after God's own heart, despite the Bathsheba incident. Abraham was an absolute boss in most regards. Samson had his faults, but why not inspire men with his virtues? I find great inspiration in the life of David. Do I give him worship that should only be given to God? No way. Nonetheless, the way men of the Bible are preach about it shameful, disgusting, and immensely demoralizing to men. How about instead of, "David did an adultery murder" we hear about how "David did what was right by Saul and spared him because David was a man of honor and kept his word. Even though it was costly to him in the short term, God favored David and raised him up to be a great king." No, instead you will hear about how awful David was, and that the only redeeming quality of his life was that he was a type of Christ to come. Blegh.

If the Romanians can be super based and honor Vlad the Impaler as a national hero of Orthodoxy, I think we can stomach a few favorable words about how inspiring the patriarchs were.

ban1chka · 2020-12-14T18:55:18+00:00

I was born again mid October and have been going to church regularly since then. I cannot imagine not having my brothers and sisters around me, especially not at this point in my spiritual life.

I come from a Eastern European country where the main religion is Orthodox Christianity, but most people are only Christians by name (have never read the Bible, don't go to church even on holidays, make no effort to know God personally). I'm Protestant and my church is heavily focused on making new disciples. The church is relatively new (our pastor started it two or three decades ago) and has been slowly growing (we are a couple of hundred now, I think). The Holy Spirit is very much present when we meet and anyone who comes can feel it.

I think church is absolutely essential. We need a community to help us, to lift us up, to pray for us, to guide us, to keep us accountable. It is also part of our own duty to take care of our brothers and sisters, to take care of all other God's children. Church is not just about what you can get, but also what you can give to your community and especially to your brothers and sisters. I think bringing people to the faith would be much more difficult if we did not have such a community. I was brought to church by one person, but it was my communication with a lot of other people within the church that allowed me to understand and hear a lot of what I needed to know before making my decision to give my life to God.

u/WhereProgressIsMade said:

Why do we need every head pastor to write a new sermon every week when there a million have already been written and we can access many of them from anywhere at any time?

Well, we need it because every sermon is made with a particular congregation, and a particular time, and a particular situation in mind. A sermon written for the people of a British village a century ago (or even 5 years ago) is nowhere near as useful to me as the sermons at my own church talking about being strong during the pandemic, about how to survive in the land of corruption that is our country, about how to deal with our particular issues that stem from our particular mentality, traditions, history, culture.

A pastor's role is not just to talk. It's to know his people, to lead them, to guide them, to be an example. To care. Your pastor should care about you. You can't get that from a pastor whose sermon you once watched on YouTube.

As for the feminization of churches... I'm not sure what to say about that, I'm not very sure what you mean by "feminization" either to be honest. Can't go wrong with holding to scripture though, and being strict about it.

Imperator_3 · 2020-12-14T20:09:48+00:00

There are two things that have been on my heart lately.

The first is a lack of discipleship happening. The current church model that revolves around a single pastor and his sermons I believe has led to a generation of passive Christians. All of the responsibility of discipling in the majority of churches falls upon the pastor but, one man is inadequate to disciple more than a handful of people. Even Jesus only had 12 disciples. Most Christians believe their only role in leading someone to Christ is inviting them to church and then letting the pastor “save” them.

The Bible gives us a clear guide that we are to make disciples and then those disciples are to go out and make more disciples. To successfully disciple someone you have to have a very strong relationship with Christ and have a decent understanding of theology and that leads me into my second issue.

American Christians are biblically illiterate. The knowledge most Christians have regarding the Bible stops at a children’s Sunday school level. If all you can do is recall the vague details of “children’s stories” you will never be able to lead someone to a deeper relationship with Christ. Even worse, if your knowledge is lacking you will be very susceptible to falling for heretical beliefs/ideas and have no idea that your beliefs are unbiblical. We see this in college students who go off to college who find themselves faced with people with very different beliefs who ask hard questions that these students aren’t prepared to answer. These students then either fall away from the faith or just shut themselves off from people of different beliefs because their ideas scare them.

coachdad8 · 2020-12-14T19:41:44+00:00

I have 2 thoughts heavily influenced by the book "Why Men Hate Going to Church" and also from being around mega-churches in the southern united states:

- Women make up around 70% of the attendees of most churches and even a higher percentage of volunteers in ministry. That means the pastor is surrounded by female opinions and under pressure to serve, and cater to, the majority. I would like churches to recruit more men to serve and that begins with the pastor, as men won't follow a man they don't respect or look up to. If that pastor is perceived as a beta, the men scatter. If the pastor is overly macho, men also scatter.

Essentially a female-dominated church doesnt attract men nor does a pastor who cannot relate to men. In both cases, they either attend for the wives or altogether avoid it with excuses. Strong male leadership sends a signal that men are valued - something lacking in almost every church I've attended.

Seminary by default is full of overly emotional dudes who couldn't hack it on the football field or in business, but they are welcomed with open arms by christian women as "relatable".

- Churches have become almost irrelevant in their current form because they are not mission-minded. Example: Covid made churches stream their services online and the overwhelming majority of people watching online claim they will not return to in-person service because they don't have a compelling reason to get off the couch. They believe church is entertainment and that they receive the same entertainment from the couch. They can worship from the couch and receive the same teaching and instruction from home.

Real Church however should be aggressively pushing discipleship from its members and holding them accountable. The Church is not supposed to bring in non-christians and evangelize them, as Acts clearly shows the dangers of allowing non-christians into their mix. Church is for believers ONLY. But believers are supposed to make disciples and then bring them into the christian community for church fellowship.

Notice most churches tell their members to bring people to church and then the pastor proceeds to have altar call or some other kind of weird emotional weepy ceremony. Pastors do this because it's easier for members to ask friends to church rather than present the gospel themselves and it's much easier for the pastor to do it 1x a week rather than teaching the members to do it themselves.

This is the laziest, most ridiculous part of church. To have a man stand up week after week with an altar call who doesn't use the 300+ members to go out and make disciples. He takes that burden on himself and is largely ineffective.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2020-12-14T17:51:34+00:00

First, thank you so much. We need more pastors like you.

What's your current perspective on church?

It's mentally draining. I have to pay close attention to everything the pastor is saying in his sermon to cross reference it with everything I've learned in my study of the Bible over my life. Then after church I have to discuss with my wife and kids when the pastor took a verse out of context, or where he decided to give advice contraindicated by scripture (and I have remember where it was so I can find it and read the Bible passage). Usually nothing that extreme happens, but when it does, it's just frustrating. Usually I just explain how his message fits into the bigger picture and it's all good.

Currently, I see church as more of a mission field than as something that does much for me. In my men's group, when there's a feminized lesson, I try to bring up verses that bring it back to a more balanced perspective.

Do you think there are good ones?

Sure. I realize no church is perfect since every single one is full of sinners. ;-)

Is church a lost cause?

I've been thinking about this. In some ways, I think the model of come sing a some songs, listen to a sermon, and chat with friends after is a bit out-dated in the internet age. Why do we need every head pastor to write a new sermon every week when a million have already been written and we can access many of them from anywhere at any time? Once recording technology became widespread, it transformed the performing arts (local bands -> pop stars, plays -> movies), but we still try to stick to the old model of church that we've had for hundreds of years. I wonder how it would work to do the songs & sermon thing and then number off and break into small groups. In bigger churches, there seem to be a lot of people that never get involved in a small group or discipleship group. Most church buildings are not designed to support this.

I think the thing that is severely lacking in the church today is discipleship. The Church seems to do ok presenting the gospel and saving souls, but a poor job and following up and making disciples out of them. Jesus spent most of his ministry years making disciples. Those disciples made disciples and so on. It is tough to get this chain reaction going. When I was a teenager, our youth pastor started hosting a Bible study in his house for those of us that were interested in taking things deeper. From that, he invited a half dozen young men to a 2nd group for discipleship. That made a big impact on my life, but then he got a job as a lead pastor elsewhere and our new youth pastor didn't do anything like it. In college, I got involved in a campus ministry that was focused on a kind of discipleship in that it was training freshman to then be small group leaders. My roommate and I lead a small group our somphmore year, but then my faith dropped in the later years. A mens group I went to years later went though a book on how to make disciples. I have yet to really disciple anyone (apart from my kids now). It's not easy. Discipleship takes a lot of time investment and can be frustrating when someone you disciple never disciple anyone else. It's something I'm really working hard to change.

What do you think churches need to do to overcome the feminization that is present in so many churches?

My first inclination is to just make sure to be balanced. If there's a sermon about a sin that is primarily something men struggle with, there should be one for women too. In my observations, the biggest one wives struggle with is trying to control her husband, but it's always a bit amusing how many sermons I've heard that try to dance around submission and downplay those verses rather than just face it head on. I realize it's awkward to do this as a man. Challenging oneself harder than others is a good perspective and is probably why every pastor I've heard try to give a balance gendered message always comes down much harder on the men than women. It's a tough spot.

If you do a positive Mother's Day message, the Father's day one should be only positive too (skip the man-up stuff unless you also challenged the mothers to step up). The wife-up thing that comes to my mind is frequently husbands feel neglected once the kids come but often don't want to complain.

Taking things further, there's plenty of material in the Bible to teach men balanced masculinity. Jesus and David have the most written about them. David is probably more relatable due to his sins but was yet a man after God's own heart. 1 Samuel 16:18 is jam packed. You've got pre-selection (servant saying it), mastery/skill (lyre), power (brave & warrior), charisma & confidence (speaks well), physical attractiveness (fine-looking), and putting God first (the Lord is with him).

Just as important is to teach women to be feminine. The be "strong and independent" messaging women get these days often turns them into bossy, loud, brazen, selfish harpies. Or they basically become masculine and then wonder why the only kind of man they can attract is a feminine one who they then walk all over and resent.

redarcher99 · 2020-12-14T20:43:51+00:00

The church is a very broad thing, I'll share my perspectives based on the church in the western civilisation.

My current perspective on church is that just like the picture in Revelation there are (local) churches that are faithful and ones that aren't.

Absolutely there are good churches. We are all bad (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19) but it is Christ who sanctifies us and makes us and his churches Holy (Hebrews 10:10) and his word that contains his views that is the truth that should inform and be the yardstick of measuring what is good (John 17:17). Good churches are ones that are faithful and worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:23). The more you get away from the truth in what a church believes and practices then the worse the church. It's probably a scale from false prophets/teachers (who the media love to imply represents all churches) to faithful Christians that are clueless/lazy with hopefully a lot of churches with Christians that are being sanctified in the middle. Also the reality is there's probably a mix in any church of people but the leadership will set the tone for the church.

No, the (universal) church is not a lost cause and the idea of local churches though some specific local ones probably are. Jesus certainly didn't think so. Jesus loved the church and died for the church. It's interesting that Paul never wrote off the church at Corinth but instead loved, challenged, taught it though he wasn't a regular there. People who think the church is a lost cause are usually jaded with the church and end up being less effective on their own rather than using the vehicle God gave us to meet together as his people (Hebrews 10:25).

My experiences:
1. Was in a (Catholic) church that didn't teach the gospel, didn't teach the Bible well, was very traditional and moralistic, had some lovely well-meaning people but I'm not sure if many of them were Christians.

Ended up in a reformed (Presbyterian) church that taught the Bible well, would mostly say they live by it but in reality many are distracted by the world, lazy, struggling to live as Christians and apply the word. Mostly introverts (I'm one of the few extroverts) who struggle with people skills and making bridges for the gospel. I tell you this because I suspect this is the challenge for many reformed churches.
Have visited a wide variety of churches for one reason or another. Broadly speaking I find the Charismatic churches to often be full of extroverts who are very people focused and put what they believe into action pretty well but often aren't as strong on the Bible and have poor Bible teaching. I've visited some out there churches with really bad Bible teachers, a few traditional ones that actually had the gospel, some Baptist ones that were pretty similar to my church just with some slight differences in particular around leadership.

Positive experiences: Becoming a Christian through a church, fantastic Bible teaching, some of the most amazing people I've ever met, authentic worship, encouraging music that teaches, being discipled one-one-one, being a part of something bigger than myself, building some real friendships, opportunities to serve and the joy of seeing people become Christians.

Negative experiences: Seeing false teachers, watching sheep make dumb choices (watching marriages falling apart, people marrying non-Christians, people walk away from Jesus, parents who train their kids music/sport/grades are more important than Jesus) or be lazy (though I am a sinner and do the same), being ignored by most in the church when I was single, Sunday Christians, immature people causing arguments, bluepill men.

All in all though, the church is the vehicle for Christians. All Christians are in the (universal) church, most are in local churches and some are disobediently (Hebrews 10:25) not in the local church.

To overcome feminization I think churches need to teach, model and practice Biblical masculinity and femininity. Men teaching from the pulpit and in Bible studies about men and women. Men training men through one-to-one discipleship and discipleship (women training and discipling women one-to-one too). I think Titus and Timothy are the scriptural proof of this along with what is implied from Genesis. Helping, challenging and correcting people who have it wrong because you love them and in a way that shows you love them.

My observations are that when men are doing the right thing, it's easier for women to follow their leadership and it generally works well. That being said, there is a place for women to minister to women in the church and it's worth a church considering employing a women for that purpose (though not to teach men). One of the reasons for this is men in ministry need to be above reproach and there are women in the church who are unmarried.

Hope this helps.

ViroTechnica · 2020-12-14T20:45:21+00:00

A little background first... I grew up in a non denominational church, my wife grew up Catholic. We left the church 5 years ago after attending our entire lives. I grew up in a church community that was very sheltered and people were shunned and shamed for everything. Everyone had fake lives for church and hidden lives behind closed doors.

Personally, the reasons my wife and I left the church 5 years ago were many. One of the big ones was highschool-esque cliques forming among the women and men. Cool kids clubs that had requirements to join. You must be a stay at home mom, you must home school your kids, etc. My wife was shamed for having a full time job as a teacher.

Another reason we left was that the church had basically become a rock venue. Sermons got shorter and shorter and the band time got longer and longer. There were fights with the women over who got to sing more solos, rivalries, and the lead singers of the band basically became pseudo celebrities at the church. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on speakers, lighting, smoke machines while programs helping the community were just dropped and forgotten about.

We ended up leaving that church after attending for 7 years, leading youth group, my wife was in the worship band, etc. Only one person reached out from hundreds of so called friends. Basically once we left, we were shunned by the church.

We started going to a more standard type of non denominational church. Structured and low key. It was fine for a few months until my wife was shamed again for working full time and not being a homeschool/stay at home mom.

We had enough. We still believe in God and pray daily, we just don't think we'll ever join a church again.

Clever_But_NotEnough · 2020-12-14T19:13:56+00:00

It's a lot easier to be critical then to articulate a superior alternative but I think in general churches need to get comfortable telling uncomfortable truths like:

Men and women are different physically, emotionally, spiritually
Men and women have different gifts from God and are better suited to different roles in order to serve most effectively
It's appropriate for men and women to embrace their respective masculinity/femininity instead of viewing either as toxic or regressive

As for actual church services it's hard to say what specifically can be done to improve them. I'm really curious what other people will say. I personally don't think there's anything wrong per se with church music or church liturgies in general. Obviously having men's groups/etc is a really great thing but I think having those kinds of things is more a reflection of the demographics of the congregation than the leadership of the pastor.

McFlygon · 2020-12-15T03:38:44+00:00

Stick to God’s word. Don’t preach verses out of context, don’t preach from a secular book, don’t try to “look like the world” and secularize sermons. People need to hear God’s word and feel conviction. Not feel better about themselves or their hidden sin. Also, please don’t require masks in your church if you were contemplating that. It’s blasphemous and people should just come as they are. It should be their choice if they want to do so or not. Following the letter of the law is not the best look on a church. Personally, the church I attend doesn’t require masks and it allows me to actually focus on the sermons and not on the fact that I feel anxious, claustrophobic, upset, discouraged, etc. like I do when shopping for groceries. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

ViroTechnica · 2020-12-15T04:41:59+00:00

What bothers me is that any charlatan can grab a Bible, start a church, and be judged as a Christian by our society despite being a heresy factory. It shouldn’t but the people who attend that church show up here and ask questions that indicate they have no idea about how to become a Christian. They aren’t being taught the scriptural process they are being entertained and their wallets are being drained.

RedPilled-Warrior · 2021-01-07T00:33:07+00:00

The Church as Christ's bride is not lost. He has and will always have His people. The Churches in the Western World today, some are lost, that's why Christ in Revelation talked to the 7 Churches and found 6 of them in hot water with Him. In our reality, and I as a black man, the Church has become feminized, with Pastors preaching feel good messages towards women (because emotions increases giving), most of our black churches are filled with single mothers and single women. Men are either preached at to step up and be a man or women are given roles that Men should have and now there are not many Men left. No Man wants to hear how bad he is, while the woman is allowed to say "Yeah" and not be examined. Interestingly, in Revelation chapter 2, Jesus speaks to 1 of the churches and says, "You tolerate that woman Jezebel......" Tolerate means you do not even challenge her. So, yes Churches are in trouble, but the CHURCH of Christ is in tact. -the Warrior

RunawayGrain · 2020-12-14T19:12:29+00:00

What's your current perspective on church? Do you think there are good ones?

I'd say the one I attend has gotten better. It stems from less focus on internal politics, and more on spreading the word. Focus on some outside the box stuff. I started a Christian weight lifting group. The church sanctioned it. It's been a hit and we've attracted a lot of younger people.

Also, don't neglect just going out in the community. A couple of the folks who attend now stated that we were the first church that had been bu to talk to them even though they had lived in the neighborhood for twenty years.

Demser1 · 2020-12-14T21:17:11+00:00

We are in a war that will lead to the war of all wars so don’t expect a return to the status quo & be equipping yourself spiritually & becoming versatile in your faith as you could be using home groups, elderly visits, handing out tracts & reaching out to other churches or pastors to join you in whatever vision or mission or even a step by step action plan God lays on your heart as the enemy will take on all forms to distract, subvert or destroy whatever God’s Kingdom does until Our Lord & Saviour returns. The Holy Bible, Reading of The Word & sharing our faith is what the house is built upon or else it is just a community centre that is built upon sand. Read books & never stop learning because the day you stop learning is the day the enemy takes an advantage over you. Develop a counsel, a council of the wise

Ephesians 5:15-16 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Lander63 · 2020-12-14T23:38:57+00:00

Everyone who works in the church for the Kingdom of God and who applies the Word of God will be blessed

ViroTechnica · 2020-12-15T04:25:54+00:00

There are more and more churches out there selling snake oil solutions instead of scriptural truth. The Reformation isn’t taught anymore so newer generations have no idea what was gained 500 years ago and why it matters. My usual answer, unfortunately, to most questions in the subreddits is that a proper conversion to Christianity hasn’t taken place and that’s why faith fades, prayers fall flat, and sin continues unabated. There is no substitute for a saving faith by grace, an indwelling Holy Spirit, and a conversion that leads to justification & sanctification. God Bless You.

Billy_King · 2020-12-15T16:26:56+00:00

- I strive to go to church every week. For the most part, it is something that I want to do, rather than something that "needs to be done"

- Personally, I do not like online church. It feels very disconnecting. Watching online church was very hard for me back when the initial shutdown happened. I understand that the church isn't a building, but I dislike it when people bring that up when talking about the struggles of dealing with online church.

- With covid, I find some people to be hypocritical in terms of going to church versus other things. They meet in person for some things they want to do but when it comes to church, they watch online for safety precautions.

- I have reservations about "seeker-friendly" churches. I am happy that they reach a lot of people but a lot of pastors do not want to talk about the dangers of sin and the existence of hell. It's all about grace and heaven. I believe both need to be talked about in a church. From my understanding, it is in these churches that pastors are reluctant to talk about social issues

throwawayme123454321 · 2020-12-18T03:17:38+00:00

As a young 20s single male. Unfortunately a lot of it has to do with the fact that Christianity is no longer a dominant cultural force in the United States and won't ever be again most likely. So instead of shaping culture a lot of churches are flung back in forth in culture or political war. I would recommend doing the following:

Be biblical, stay out of political weeds (but don't just say politics don't matter).
Be red pilled (enough said ) and definitely know the difference between blue/red/black pill and the arguments for and against all, and why monogamy and biblical marriage is best for society and especially Christians. The west is moving scarily fast toward polygamy and the church needs to be ready for it.
Be smart. My pastor frequently references a vast array of works, books, surveys, etc. Makes his sermons much more powerful and relevant.
Be respectable, dress sharp, talk commandingly but also be funny and approachable. Don't be the "young hip pastor trying to be cool fellow kids" but also don't be someone my grandparents would even find boring.
If you see attractive (or any) young people do whatever you can to hold on to them lol. I hate to say this but a lot of people are followers. If there are cute single girls and guys then more will come. Encourage meeting before/after church. I have 2 churches, one at school and at home. At school, they have bagels and stuff after service, people are talking and it's a better atmosphere for meeting people. I'm not the only guy to admit that he hopes to find a woman at church one day. Have a young adult group and try maybe not directly but through other people to set people up if you think they could be a good fit. Get to know the young men and women and what they're looking for.

MeneerUYL · 2020-12-31T08:57:36+00:00

It heavily depends on what country in the world you're in to determine what "type of churches " are there. I am from The Netherlands and there are many forms of churches here. I am a social person so don't really have trouble fitting in somewhere, getting accustomed. However, in my eyes/experience, not all these churches rely on the scripture as much as should be.

I can imagine that if you are in another part of the world, this may be emphasized much more or have so much scripture it feels like rules when you are younger. As far as I know, in my country, churches do not feminize. Usually, the balance between man and women is more emphasized and explained quite properly.

IMO, a good church has the following:

- can have an objective look at someone's life using scripture;
- has events to bring people in church closer together, experiencing as brothers and sisters;
- be a place to discuss scripture without boundaries and explain in "simple" language;
- has a pastor(s) who is involved with someone personally, not just professionally;
- is built around scripture, not around people (balance between discussing scripture vs enjoyment)

If I have more, I'll write down more.

momagainstdabbing · 2020-12-14T23:17:39+00:00

Get apologetics into the church!

PoorBoysAmen · 2020-12-14T18:16:16+00:00

It’s said that God is the uniter and the Devil is the divider in life. As a Catholic I believe the Church is CRUCIAL - we need to be a united COMMUNITY worshiping together. Good on you for trying to get a positive place for people to come together - you are seeing the bigger picture. And sometimes it’s not for your personal sake - but for someone who comes there needing a positive environment. But I believe it is our duty to provide that community.

“I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”

“And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts..”

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.”

Sorry if the verses are out of context - was in a rush, but the principle is the same.

And a little off topic - but this is why I firmly believe in and defend the Catholic Church.

NoFaithInThisSub · 2020-12-14T21:37:09+00:00

I'm curious as to everyone's perspective on church right now.

Why are you worrying about another man's woman?

Title	The Church
Author	Background-Camera109
Upvotes	37
Comments	61
Date	December 14, 2020 5:04 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RPChristians
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/kd1kdv/the_church/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/the-church.731300 https://theredarchive.com/post/731300

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