Mens Rights and Feminism on Egalitarianism

unexpecteditem · 2012-12-29T15:02:34+00:00

“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

oneiorosgrip · 2012-12-29T23:17:53+00:00

The problem is that MRAs and feminists do not have identical definitions for the terms of their movements. Take, for instance, the concept of rights:

Feminists fail to differentiate between having a fundamental need, and having a fundamental right. The pursuit of conditions or factors to meet fundamental needs (eg., putting forth effort to obtain food and shelter) is a human right. The receipt of conditions or factors to meet fundamental needs (eg., having food and shelter provided at the expense of others) is not a fundamental right, but an act of charity on the part of the provider (as long as it's voluntary - otherwise, it's theft by the recipient, even when those things are needed.) With this misapplication of the word "right," feminists treat the condition of being given possession or position as if it were the same as the condition of having one's pursuit not be being wrongfully obstructed.

Another problem which has a side effect upon this is that feminist advocates fail to differentiate between fundamental needs, and dearly valued/wanted conveniences. Food and shelter are fundamental needs. Yummy food and nice shelter are dearly valued/wanted conveniences. Feminists go beyond claiming the right to the pursuit of fulfillment of fundamental needs to claim the right to receive dearly valued/wanted conveniences.

One outgrowth of that combination of beliefs is the sense of entitlement to enforce the provision of the fulfillment of needs or dearly held wants upon other human beings; treating "If A has a need for or dearly held want of factor 1, B must provide it," where A is the individual with whom feminism identifies itself, and B is the individual with whom feminism takes issue.

This is further modified by another fundamental flaw in the movement; Patriarchy Theory, which in short, blames upon male society all issues or conditions which feminists define as oppression of women. Patriarchy Theory makes female society group A, and male society group B.

So you have a group which labels having (as opposed to not being prevented from reasonably pursuing) that which women want or need to be a right, and asserts that as justification for demanding or taking it from men.

On the other side of the discussion is the MRM, comprised of people who have noticed that the practical application of that factor - the authoritative societal imposition of provision for women's wants and needs upon men - is in fact a violation of men's basic human rights, particularly the right to liberty.

In some cases this involves a direct transfer of material possessions from men to women (alimony, child support) and in some, indirect (social programs for custodial parents, funded by income taxes; free birth control for women, funded by taxes.)
In other cases this involves wrongfully obstructing men's pursuit of the fulfillment of needs and wants (preferential treatment in hiring and promotion.)
In some, it involves wrongfully unbalancing the application of policy in the justice system (infringing upon due process rights, unequal treatment in civil disputes and criminal cases.)
It even manifests in the difference in social and legal obligations between the sexes, where men are expected to protect and provide, and women may be shielded from conditions and responsibilities which men are expected to face and embrace.

That's the base issue between the two movements, before you even get to the concepts of what constitutes discrimination or oppression, and what constitutes equality. At the very bottom of every area of conflict between the two movements is a struggle over that disagreement; the feminist belief that women have the right to demand or take what we want or need from men, and the MRA contention that no, we don't. This is the conflict which makes the two movements incompatible.

OuiCrudites · 2012-12-29T11:42:48+00:00

Feminism and egalitarianism are incompatible because feminist jurisprudence and activism supports so much unequal legislation.

unexpecteditem · 2012-12-29T08:18:34+00:00

Read this to understand why feminism is a problem.

Listen to this to understand why "good" feminists assuring us that NAFALT is asinine.

Going beyond that, many of the tenants of the feminist ideology are so anti-male that they can't possibly be reconciled with equality (patriarchy theory, rape culture, duluth model domestic violence, etc). When feminists offer to "help" men, it is usually along the lines of curing their "toxic masculinity" or giving more privileges to women.

OuiCrudites · 2012-12-29T12:43:20+00:00

We have one thing in common with feminism - we believe that women deserve human rights. We also have things in common with a few individual feminists who have a genuine desire for equality. (Feminism as a movement does not stand for equality.)

We believe men deserve human rights and equal rights on a wide variety of social issues where we lack it. Feminism aggressively lobbies against male human rights all over the world.

We believe women are adults, capable of all the responsibilities that men are expected to handle. Feminism infantilizes women, and aggressively lobbies for special privilege to alleviate them from adult responsibility.

We seek a world where everyone is allowed to earn respect and experience success, based on their merits. Feminism has a long history of hating on men, deliberately fostering disrespect for men, and (as said above) infantilizing women.

We are a human rights movement. Feminism is a hateful supremacist movement that actually doesn't even respect women, let alone men.

Eryemil · 2012-12-29T10:26:09+00:00

yet Egalitarianism is a topic which both parties seem to agree upon in similar ways.

We agree that equality is an ideal and that's about it.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-12-29T16:03:55+00:00

This thread again.

rightsbot · 2012-12-29T08:06:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

2012-12-29T10:58:00+00:00

Egalitarianism is a topic which both parties seem to agree upon in similar ways.

This is merely a propaganda tool used by either side. What really matters is the assumptions you make of the world, and how you build policy built around your assumptions.

Just because two groups use the same word doesn't mean they are using the same definition or assumptions.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2012-12-29T17:35:46+00:00

Saying you want equality is a fine slogan but in practice it isn't always that simple.

One area where I think feminists fail in pushing equality is in insisting on equality in outcomes, rather than opportunities. And even then they want equality in outcomes only when that will benefit women. We need more female CEOs, but men can dominate in dangerous low paying jobs.

Additionally there are biological issues where equality just isn't possible. For instance: women have children, men do not. We can't change this and yet it will lead to a great many discrepancies between how we are treated.

I believe everyone should have the same rights and opportunities and where biology intervenes make it as equal as possible (men can't have abortions, but perhaps we can have financial abortions, for instance).

If feminists could agree with that then I think we have a common ground. If not they will likely continue seeing any improvement in men's lot as a direct attack on women and thus common ground would not be possible.

mayonesa · 2012-12-29T16:00:53+00:00

Both Men's Rights activists and Feminists tout ideals such as Egalitarianism as a means of implementing gender neutral opportunity and consideration.

If feminism advocates for it already, why do we need MRAs?

mikesteane · 2012-12-30T07:31:40+00:00

Quite simply, feminism is, and always has been, a hate movement. Not only is it a hate movement against men but also against ordinary women. Those pushing the most extreme agendas are dysfunctional individuals incapable of any kind of healthy relationship. They wish to prevent other women having what they cannot have. This is just one of the reasons MRAs cannot cooperate with feminists.

CosmicKeys · 2012-12-29T08:46:12+00:00

Both MRAs and Feminism believe in equality under the law (reproduction issues aside for now).

MRAs general espouse that men and women are biologically different in many ways, including risk taking, sex drive etc. Because of this they believe there are many social practices (more men in STEM for examples) that will never acheive equality. Like feminists, most MRAs believe that society is currently too sexist and we can greatly reduce the gender stereotypes men and women face. Some don't. However, feminsts believe that pretty much all gender issues are entirely social constructs. We know that both society and biology are influential in gender roles, but it's very difficult to elucidate how much (nature vs. nurture). Feminists will go quite far to deny biological truths.

Second point - why can't everyone work together towards the egalitarian end points we agree on? Well, while MRAs and feminists agree on the end point, they do not agree on what the problem is causing inequality, and because of that what the solutions should be.

To illustrate, feminists believe the problem is that society inherently disadvantages women and advantage men. This is called patriarchy theory. Therefore, the solution is to advantage women a whole lot more, and educate men that their privledge is the problem. MRAs believe that both men and women are disadvantaged and advantaged in different and relatively equal ways, although MRAs will say that because of the Feminist approach just mentioned, men are starting to be systematically disadvantaged which can be seen when you view statistics like those for education.

So this is why I see it that Feminism and Mens Rights cannot cooperate - they are not opposite sides of the same coin. They fundementally differ in their perspective on gender roles, and so all the solutions feminism offers potentially just cause worsening imbalance for men rather than improving anything.

baskandpurr · 2012-12-29T18:34:02+00:00

I'm getting tired of MR talking about feminism all the time. Can we start talking about Mens Rights now? What feminism thinks or does not think about MR is irrelevant.

buster2209 · 2012-12-29T19:28:56+00:00

Gender neutrality is a utopian pipe dream. Men are physically stronger in almost all measurable statistics. Men can't give birth, females can. Females learn differently to what males do. I think gender differences need to be recognised and the rights of each gender need to be equally protected under law. For example, here's a video by John the Other with respect to gender rights to do with reproductive rights;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVgfJWN3D2s&list=UU255AfKquZnQMO0amxdEGWw&index=17

johnsmith66 · 2012-12-30T22:09:14+00:00

Feminism and egalitarianism are incompatible. Feminism cares only about women's rights. Men's rights aren't even considered by women. Feminism pushes unequal legislation that treats male and female criminals very differently. Consider the Violence Against Women Act, which only protects women. Where is the Violence Against People Act?

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-12-29T15:41:23+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Mens Rights and Feminism on Egalitarianism
Author	Fisto27
Upvotes	15
Comments	59
Date	December 29, 2012 8:04 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15m8ew/mens_rights_and_feminism_on_egalitarianism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-and-feminism-on-egalitarianism.1005529 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005529

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