The Great Geek Sexism Debate

[+][deleted] 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]dermanus 13 points14 points15 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Incident number 1: Pretty clear case of harassment. Not gonna defend it because I don't think it's defensible. They did have a policy, but didn't want to enforce it against a long-time volunteer. That is a tough spot to be in, but I think they made the wrong call not enforcing it. The en masse resignation of the committee does suggest the problem isn't as widespread as they want to make it seem.

Incident number 2: Dawkins doesn't have much patience for whining, and Watson is a professional whiner. They butted heads. Big surprise. I agree with Dawkins that feminism is irrelevant to skepticism. You can do both, but one doesn't require the other. Some aspects of feminism are even contrary to skepticism (like patriarchy theory).

Not sexism, just a guy pointing out that women are facing much bigger problems than being uncomfortable in elevators. He may have over-reacted, but that's debatable.

Incident 3: A (female) hacker came up with a clever and popular solution to a problem with some members of the community. The punch card for points is bad, and considering most hackers are more than a little anti-authority the ground-up solution was very elegant.

[–]hardwarequestions 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Kuato2012 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Gingor 19 points20 points21 points 13 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 17 points18 points19 points 13 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]xander1026 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I think that geek culture is less accessible to women for both those reasons. I'm a girl/woman, and I wasn't really allowed to have any access to screen media when I was growing up (though I did read some Pern books, go figure). Now, there are lots of things (Video games! Zombies! Some but not all fantasy and sci-fi!) that are a part of "geek" culture that are really appealing, and I have quite a few friends that are excited about and willing to introduce me to lots of cool, geeky things. Which is all A++, would, geek culture again.

However, my experiences with large groups of geek-minded people have not been very positive. There are a few people that are just out-and-out jerks, there are a lot more people that obviously, awkwardly, and uncomfortably hit on you, and there's always quite a few that will ream you on your geek credentials, and when you fail, proceed to convert to total jerk.

And then there's the other 90% or more, that are completely civilized and nice and helpful and interesting and wonderful, but those few can monopolize so much of your time and energy that being involved in the good parts of geek culture just isn't worth it, particularly if you're just trying to get your foot in the door.

Just a different viewpoint =)

[–]TomBayes 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]xander1026 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Then why does the community not do a better job of policing? I'd say that both of those things are potentially (but not always or necessarily) worse for women, because they're already in a place where they're unsure and potentially unwanted, but it really shouldn't matter; why is this community not more proactive about calling out it's jerks? I'd say that the creep cards use very loaded language, but having a "you made me uncomfortable, please stop" kind of card isn't a bad thing at all.

And, honestly, the jerks aren't the worst part of the community, because I (and most other adults) am not that thin-skinned. It's the constantly being hit on. It's frustrating to spend a large portion of your time having to avoid advances, unwanted touching, and people following you around like puppies, especially when you don't have any way of knowing how people will react to a rejection (especially if they haven't come out and said anything, but are still uncomfortably clingy/touchy).

And, while I understand the numbers aspect, I think a lot of what matters here is a respect/understanding consequences thing. If there's a tree, and it's a really awesome tree, and you're the only one around, climbing it isn't going to be a big deal. When it's in the middle of a park, and lots of people are climbing it, all the bark gets scraped off and it can make the tree sick, and also harder to climb. It seems like the community has a real entitlement problem- whenever the issue gets brought up, the response seems to be "Well, they're here, and I want to be able to hit on girls, so I should totally do that! It's dumb for them to be offended!". I guess I'm mostly just marveling in the short-sightedness of the community.

And I'm sure it'd change if there were enough ladies willing to do that, but that's my perspective on why fewer ladies aren't willing to do so.

[–]TomBayes 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, the community itself is massive. Like-minded people get together. So on local scales, there is quite a bit of policing. So people move around to find where they fit. If they are a jerk, they fit in where there are jerks, or go solo. If they aren't a jerk, they avoid groups dominated by that type.

I guess that catch comes in environments based around highly competitive play. Unfortunately, the winners make the rules, and if the winners want to act like jerks (and oh boy do they so often do), then that is the rule of the land. They will use everything they can against you. So if you're a woman who is unsure of herself, they will capitalize on that as best as they possibly can.

I believe you when you say the manner in which they hit on women is inappropriate. Yes, they should know boundaries. Yes, they should keep it cool if rejected. But to say they shouldn't hit on the women is absurd (which it seems like you are doing, correct me if wrong). You're basically telling all these guys, Hey, see all these pretty ladies with all this stuff in common with you that you can't seem to meet anywhere else? Yeah, they're all off limits. Do you not see how messed up that is?

[–]xander1026 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That makes sense in a lot of ways, and I understand how large groups make for a lot of jerks. So, I would think that for large cons, there'd be a lot of thought going into how to prevent that.

And, as with any type of speech, I think the solution isn't a blanket ban so much some careful thought about what's being communicated. Yeah, pretty ladies that are probably interested in what you're interested in are really, really exciting! Still, if (general, not TomBaynes) you saw a guy at that booth/in a cosplay from that thing/at that panel, would you be dead set on talking to them? If yeah, then talking to them makes some sense. If, after your conversation, would you want to be friends with them, if they were a guy? Do they seem like they're actually interested in talking to you? If you can get a yes on all of these things, go for it!

I think the problem is that a lot of guys go straight from pretty girl to "It's absurd that I maybe shouldn't hit on her!", which skips the part where everyone is frustrated, because nobody will give her space and that girl never gave them a chance.

And all of that is before thinking about the people that have just read The Game and haven't figured out that being as much of a jerk as possible isn't cool, and the people (guys and girls) that don't know what signals are or how to respond to them or where is up and what is down.

So, I think the (rhetorical) question is, will the solution be the chicken or the egg? Will spaces be more friendly for women, and more women will be comfortable in them, or do more women have to be involved in the spaces before they become more friendly?

[–]Gingor 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]xander1026 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

There are a few people that are just out-and-out jerks,

Those people are jerks to everyone, probably even more so against other men as well. It's not even that uncommon to find nerdy guys being hazed and belittled for being nerdy in a nerdy context(Like guys telling other guys that they are losers, in an online game, for playing the same game a few more hours than they do). It's something that is often extenuated by anti-geek culture(being berated for their hobbies and, even more so, shunned or belittled by women can often bread anger or resentment towards others). Either way, trash talk is kind of common for competitive environment, it's unfair to say that women have it worse when that really isn't the case. If anything, white knighting and overt pandering to women is far more common place.

there are a lot more people that obviously, awkwardly, and uncomfortably hit on you

So, that's either anti-male sexual shaming or simply further shaming men for being nerdy or awkward. Yes, heterosexual men are attracted to women, and that's normal. Having those basic human feelings and expressing them to women is not something that nerdy men should explicitly made to feel ashamed of. It is perfectly normal for men to want to let their interest known to other women, just as it would be for women to let their interest known to other men. Male interest isn't something that should be looked at with contempt, disdain or apathy; it's normal. The anti-male geek attitude that you are demonstrating here, even as you claim to be a gamer yourself, is a perfect example of the problem that geek culture faces and why so few women have historically been involved with geek culture; and it is wrong. It would be like men saying "black women play tennis, black women are losers/creepy/unattractive; therefor, I don't want to play tennis". The fact that so many men are willing accept or perpetuate this self-depreciating attitude to please women or make them more comfortable, even if it stems from very harmful predispositions towards men, or nerdy men more specifically, is in of itself a pretty big example of how desperate men are to include women into geek culture.

there's always quite a few that will ream you on your geek credentials, and when you fail, proceed to convert to total jerk.

Of-course they would. Imaging spending your entire life being told you're shit and that no would ever date or have sex with you because you video games or star trek; imagine spending you're entire life trying to build on that and over-coming those obstacle and, then, imagine someone coming in at the last second, not having faced or endured any of the hardships you have and claim to be part of that same culture. Essentially coming in to claim all the rewards(whatever those may be), without ever having to bare any of the hard costs. The fact that so many women can get that much attention, despite never having to define or prove themselves(something that men have to do continuously) or despite often not even knowing anything about the matter they claim to be into, is in of itself a pretty blatant example as to, again, how desperate men in geek culture are to include women.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Having those basic human feelings and expressing them to women is not something that nerdy men should explicitly made to feel ashamed of.

It is if they're unable (or more to the point unwilling) to appropriately control that expression. A certain amount of body odor is a natural thing, but that doesn't make it unreasoanble to ask people to take a damn shower if it's been demonstrated that it affects other people negatively and that the people causing the problem aren't going to address it on their own initiative.

The fact that so many women can get that much attention, despite never having to define or prove themselves(something that men have to do continuously) or despite often not even knowing anything about the matter they claim to be into, is in of itself a pretty blatant example as to, again, how desperate men in geek culture are to include women.

That attention isn't the same thing as inclusion. The people giving that attention likely don't see the people they're paying it to as full participants in the hobby/community/whatever in the same way they see themselves.

[–]ExpendableOne 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is if they're unable (or more to the point unwilling) to appropriately control that expression.

So basically "if women don't find you hot, you're not allowed to have basic human desires; must less let them known to other women". Do you not understand how incredibly dehumanizing and harmful that kind of attitude is towards male geeks, or even men in general?

A certain amount of body odor is a natural thing, but that doesn't make it unreasoanble to ask people to take a damn shower if it's been demonstrated that it affects other people negatively and that the people causing the problem aren't going to address it on their own initiative.

What does that have to do with anything? You are simply throwing a ridiculous stereotype that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue other than the fact that it's a commonly perpetuated stereotype against male geeks.

The people giving that attention likely don't see the people they're paying it to as full participants in the hobby/community/whatever in the same way they see themselves.

People who demonstrate their capacity in that sub-culture generally find no troubles being treated as full participants of that hobby/community. A lot of women who claim to be a part of that geek culture simply feel like they should be entitled to skip all that(while no men really ever has to). Imagine if a guy was to go into a knitting class(random topic that I just assume is primarily supported/maintained by women) and then just did everything to disturb the atmosphere there, claimed that those women are losers for knitting or told them that he's just as good at knighting even though he's only been doing it for a week; that attitude really wouldn't get him very far(not even going into the type of typical sexual shaming that would come from women towards men trying to get into female dominated spaces). It has gotten women pretty far in gaming/sci-fi because men in gaming/sci-fi just want women irregardless, but it's still going to piss a lot of people off.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So basically "if women don't find you hot, you're not allowed to have basic human desires; must less let them known to other women".

Expression, not desire. What you think/want/feel isn't the issue, it's how you act on it.

What does that have to do with anything? You are simply throwing a ridiculous stereotype that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue other than the fact that it's a commonly perpetuated stereotype against male geeks.

It's a common enough violation of socially acceptable behavior that the organizers of Dragon*Con felt the need to make it explicit. If they didn't, a small but significant number of people would try to go the whole weekend without sleeping, much less showering. By the same token, if the organizers of some of the conventions mentioned in the article don't make it explicit that certain behavior is unacceptable, a small but significant number of people are going to harass or get handsy with someone.

People who demonstrate their capacity in that sub-culture generally find no troubles being treated as full participants of that hobby/community.

I don't think this is true. I've seen plenty of examples of people whose cred seemed to be in good order who still didn't seem like they were taken seriously.

Imagine if a guy

If a guy went into a knitting club with a genuine interest in knitting, but constantly felt like people were talking down to him, and had to put up with varying degrees of harassment pretty much constantly, would you be defending the behavior of the women involved?

[–]xander1026 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not even that uncommon to find nerdy guys being hazed and belittled for being nerdy in a nerdy context.

I understand that in online gaming communities, to some extent, because there’s enough anonymity and competition to let it flourish. I’m surprised that there isn’t more self-policing by the gaming community, because hostility is so unpleasant for everyone. I think that even more so for cons, and other real-life get-togethers.

Everyone is really quick to tell me that guys have it the same or worse than ladies, which could be true; the same question applies, though. Why? The creep cards use language that’s really, really loaded, but why is the idea of having a card you can hand someone that says “This social interaction made me uncomfortable/unhappy/angry, because X, Y, or Z.” Why does this community accept that much nastiness? What I’m hearing here is that the geek community doesn’t have a problem with women, the geek community has a problem with civility, period.

It is perfectly normal for men to want to let their interest known to other women, just as it would be for women to let their interest known to other men.

I have never, ever had a problem with someone coming to me and saying “Hey, I think you’re attractive and pretty cool. Would you like to get to know each other better?”. There’s nothing wrong with someone expressing interest, as long as it’s done in a way that’s polite and respectful, and they accept my polite and respectful response in a way that’s equally polite and respectful. As popoi said, there are appropriate ways to express desires. There are also completely inappropriate ways to express those desires.

The problem comes in when people start breaking lots of social rules. It’s not acceptable for someone to catcall; the desire might be acceptable, and the thoughts are acceptable, but that’s unduly embarrassing and dehumanizing for the recipient of the catcall. Similarly, it’s very frustrating to (try to) have a conversation with someone, and for their primary focus to be not your face, and not the conversation, but your chest. It’s also hard to set boundaries in a way that doesn’t humiliate other people. I understand that hugs are fun and that touching is nice, but that doesn’t mean that geeky guys are allowed to touch or hug me as much as they want to. The unfortunate consequence of this is that in order to not tell guys in public that they need to stop touching me (which would be absolutely humiliating, and nobody responds to positively), I have to resort to social signaling (which, if the guy misses totally, can also be embarrassing for him) or completely avoid touching (which is a lose for everyone, but I think that’s the conclusion we’ve all been coming to anyway). It’s also hard to deal with people that won’t leave you alone; it’s hard to tell someone to go away, especially if they’re well-meaning, and more so if you think the response is going to be an attack. It’s frustrating for everyone, because everyone involved (usually) has good motives, and is trying to save face, but it makes for a place that can be uncomfortable for women.

I’m not straight, and dear god do I remember middle school and how hard it was to build up the self-control to not look down every girl’s shirt I could. I remember the absolutely horrifyingly embarrassing realization that, yes, girls knew exactly where I was looking. I know what it feels like to have girls be grossed out by my attraction to them, I promise. And it sucks and it hurts and nobody likes that feeling. I know that there are differences, but I can empathize.

Also, I recognize that touch needs are really important and significant social needs, and that guys are very much socially bound so that they can only have those needs met by a significant other, and I think that is both unfair and damaging to men (just like anti-emotion taboos), but that doesn’t mean that I am obligated to hug or cuddle or touch every guy out there, just like I’m not obligated to meet the sexual needs of every guy out there.

Essentially coming in to claim all the rewards(whatever those may be), without ever having to bare any of the hard costs.

I don’t see how saying “Hey, I kinda like these things, and I know a little about this other thing, and I want to find out about more things that I’d enjoy!” should merit an attack like this, but I think we’re coming down to the same issue- the community is unhealthy, period. I’m not sure why that’s something the community would want to cling to, though.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Imaging spending your entire life being told you're shit and that no would ever date or have sex with you because you video games or star trek; imagine spending you're entire life trying to build on that and over-coming those obstacle and, then, imagine someone coming in at the last second, not having faced or endured any of the hardships you have and claim to be part of that same culture.

HOld up, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You seem to be claiming that, by being a "nerd" "geek" whatever you are automatically subject to ridicule, and that may be true, and if it is, I'm sorry that that happened. HOWEVER. You seem to be saying that because of said riducle for your interest it gives you the right to judge others and evalute their 'worthiness' to share your interest. At the same time you seem to be saying that women are welcome, and everyone is welcome...assss long as they've had the stuffing kicked out of them the way that "I" have.

I know first hand that, as a woman attending cons, I am called out nearly constantly to prove that I know my stuff, FAR more than my male counter parts. Heaven help me if I don't know the answer (now, I've attended many cons and have stopped answering these types of bait questions due to the fact that they never lead anywhere.) No one knows everything about everything, and yes, there are going to be people that have spent time studing the details of piccards underwear size, but that does NOT give these people the right to make fun of, or make feel unwelcome people who have NOT spent time studying the same thing. I think directly the oposite, this would be a wonderful time for information sharing, perhaps building new bridges and finding new allies, not stomping on a budding interest.

I have a female friend who is a wonderful example. She LOVED star trek, she wasn't a super fan and still new to the interest, but she'd seen a couple seasons and was totally hooked. The convention was coming up and she'd convinced me to go with her. She was baited over and over and over again with questions that no one that hadn't spent years watching and rewatching could possibly answer. She tried in the beginning to answer (despite my warnings) and was mobbed with comments accusing her of attention whoring, trolling and not actually having the interest in question. Since then, she has never mentioned star trek, and has said that she'd rather light her hair on fire than ever hang out with con people or dedicated star trek fans again. It's sad, because she COULD have been an ally. The worst part was the general acceptance of this sort of behavoir towards her, if one started hacking on her, it wouldn't take too long before there were 3 4 5 more standing around throwing impossible questions at her and making fun of her. It's not wierd that she never showed up again.

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I know I will be flamed for answering you honestly. Sadly, most men in my profession are anything but welcoming. I often get rather wildly unlooked for and unwelcome sexual advances, as well as many comments regarding if I actually do my own work, if I need help, and 'wow, you're great...for a girl' It's sad, and frustrating. While there are many men that are wonderful in their field, I too, not to blow my own horn, am not half bad, but they is vastly overlooked, instead, when addressing me, my gender is in full focus. Often in forums and in games I refrain from mentioning my gender specifically because of the 'special' treatment I receive due to it. Had I a choice, I'd be looked in some sort of gender neutral suit (joke..but you understand) so that my work could stand alone and for itself, (my opinions too for that matter) without being either the spokes person for women in the IT world (we are all unique) or some sort of zoo like animal 'look everyone! a woman in IT lets all go bother her' I deserve no more credit, and no more help than anyone else, fuck the fact that I happen to have boobs.

At Defcon, have there been men who have treated me like an equal? Absolutly ...however, the overpowering feeling I get being there is one of 'you don't belong here' or 'prove that you are good enough to be here' I refuse to sit down and prove myself to these people..mainly due to none of my male coworkers having to do so....which has the added effect of 'see, told you she can't do it' rather than 'no one here has to prove anything due to their gender.' I go to defcon with work and for myself..I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing =P (I hasten to add that my male coworkers are as disturbed by peoples reactions to me as I am)

**edit for sentence wierdness fixing.

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[–]pocketknifeMT -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Congrats for doing it like everyone else. I bet you wouldn't feel as accomplished if you got on those panels simply because your lack of a penis would shut Rebecca Watson up for 10 minutes? No, you did it the correct way. Had the shared interest, knew your stuff, and participated in the program. I doubt anyone had a problem with you being on the panel because of your gender. It was immaterial to the matter at hand, IT security.

Its about women showing up to a predominately male gathering, gasping and saying, "Everything about this needs to change to make it welcoming to me and other women. Not complying with my wishes in this matter is disgustingly misogynistic."

What is reasonable about that?

There aren't many Women Scifi writers...doesn't mean we can't have a panel unless one graces the conference with her ovaries and blesses the panel with the fairer sex?

Apparently that's the party line now.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]pocketknifeMT -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

First off, If you are in IT and going to Defcon...why aren't you dressed to impress? Its a networking event. Daisy dukes and halter top are way off the list here...

Second, how is the conference any different from the day before the conference and the day after? Whats so magic about the conference where men will stare there, but not a few days previous or in another location? Strikes me as business as usual, but with conference organizers to complain to.

Nobody here is for sexual harassment. Its just replacing it with handing creep cards to men and other shaming non-sense is going to go over like a lead balloon in these crowds...for obvious reasons.

I am more against the planning take over and gender quotas for panels and the like. Someone left the door open for crazies, and now they are making themselves at home. In a few years, other conferences will be the big ones most likely. People like to have a good time, not deal with manufactured drama and politics.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is different because at the conference I have a bunch of people I don't regularly work with, and therefore, issues of my gender come up. At work daily? Never an issue, I'm the only woman in the department..and could care less. Do I think about what I wear to cons? Yes. Because it effects directly how I am treated. If I wear a dress..which rarely but does happen, I'm 'babied' much more than if I wear loose fitting jeans and a hoodie (my usual uniform of choice).

I never said anyone here is for sexual harassment. However, I do think that it's easier to explain away bad behavior with 'oh but she's at a male dominated con, what should she expect' or 'this is the way we behave' rather than, 'no, fuck that shit.' Some people with weird cards that they want to hand out, take it wayyyyy too far, but at defcon, having employees try to get women to show them their tits? ...and thats somehow explained away with 'all in good fun' ???

My hope, is that in a few years, the community (IT) will calllmmmm the fuckkkk downnnn and stop trying to quota in women..or shamelessly pander to them. However, without a few women trail blazers, the community will never grow and change to accept more ideas and thoughts. I think it's unresonable to expect that the IT and con communities will remain exactly the same with an influx of new people, but it's also equally unreasonable for said new people to bring with them a ridiculous list of demands...but reasonable demands? like being treated with respect and not harassed? Shouldn't be an issue.

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Title	The Great Geek Sexism Debate
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	28
Comments	75
Date	September 10, 2012 1:38 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/znh8q/the_great_geek_sexism_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-great-geek-sexism-debate.1013864 https://theredarchive.com/post/1013864

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