I know that a lot of you are not PUAs, but what are your thoughts about the way the feminists are starting to smear "game"?

Maschalismos · 2012-08-08T21:29:33+00:00

I think the key to understanding the feminist response is that 'game' and 'PUA' are based on the premise that the majority of women find dominant men to be sexually and romantically attractive. And based on not only the anecdotal evidence but on recent psychology studies, that is probably true.

Well, male dominance is the ultimate feminist boogeyman, the essence of 'The Patriarchy'. If dominant males make women wet their panties, then feminism is doomed. There is no greater threat to feminism than the possibility that the basic sexual and romantic response of women is submissive in nature.

In my personal experience this core insight of game is indeed true. The women I've known responded very positively to a benevolent dominance that combines both leadership and caring. The things that most women look for in a man in a relationship - taking the initiative and leading, making them feel desired, cared for and loved, making them feel safe and secure, being someone they can look up to - are all best delivered from a position of strength.

2012-08-08T19:41:43+00:00

I personally see it as an attack on male sexuality. In the '60, women claimed that their movement was going to "take back female sexuality" and they did just that. The problem is they didn't just take back theirs, they took men's and reduced it to basically nothing. I am not in agreement with all of the things discussed by most PUAs, but I do think that it is a backlash against the feminists who think they can tell men what to do in the bed room, and with their own bodies. They see men taking control, and view it as a direct attack on the power they have worked so hard to secure. And so far it has worked. All they have to do is yell "rapist" or "pedophile" and the white knights come running to protect them from the big evil menz. Frankly, it is sickening.

shonmao · 2012-08-08T20:08:05+00:00

I would agree with Lucretia. I do think that Clarisse Thorn is the closest to understanding what PUA is about.

Her July 29th blog post shows some of the downside and in the comments she addresses some of the issues with PUA. Her other article addresses some of the things she likes about it.

She's not quite on board with the rest of the feminist movement and her writings do give insight into our ?adversaries? (need a better word).

In any case, I do think that most feminists like to find the worst in the manosphere, shame it and make it an apex fallacy issue. They are cherry picking the worst stories about Roissy and the guy who took a seminar about 15 years ago as an example. If they want to look at the more positive segments of PUA, look to Lance Mason (basic PUA) or Johnny Soporno (sort of an intro to polyamory) or Juggler (monogamist, general social skils, playfulness), who are teaching the same things they've always taught, but have distanced themselves from the main PUA movement.

I could talk more about it since I've also distanced myself from them, but keep a pulse on the movement. I think there is a Masters Degree thesis that does shed more light and I will try to locate it.

Homeles · 2012-08-09T02:31:46+00:00

I don't agree with a lot of the PUA mentality -- the stereotypical "Oh, these women are just numbers to me. It's just sex."

But stereotypes are just that. The whole seduction/PUA stuff tends to be largely misunderstood by both the people that promote it and the people that look down upon it. It's about self improvement at its core, which is a really cool and important idea for both genders.

penikripa · 2012-08-08T19:59:20+00:00

I don't dislike PUAs nearly as much as feminists, but honestly, I don't really like them either. This latest clash of theirs leaves me indifferent.

thoumyvision · 2012-08-08T21:22:53+00:00

First a bit of Game theory:

Men have two types of traits that are important in relationships with women: Comfort traits and attractiveness traits. Traditional "nice guys" are guys with high levels of comfort traits and low levels of attractiveness traits. Traditional "assholes" are guys who have high levels of attractiveness traits and low levels of comfort traits. Game is about teaching men the attractiveness traits, whether or not they have the comfort traits.

So what feminists object to, and I think rightly so, is when guys abandon comfort traits and adopt only attractiveness traits, or never had comfort traits and make no effort to develop them. And the reality is, this is what a lot of PUAs do. However, this ignores the ideal, which is to maintain or develop a high level of comfort traits while also developing a high level of attractiveness traits. This process is really general self-improvement and not at all a negative thing.

I think the problem mostly stems from the fact that people on both sides of the controversy have begun to associate attractiveness traits only with assholes.

dakru · 2012-08-08T21:11:27+00:00

I've read a few of Matt Forney's posts and I liked them.

As for the topic, a large portion of guys (at least before middle age) are at a complete loss about how to deal with women, how to attract them. Their seduction ability is limited to "I'll just be really, really nice and she'll realise that I'm the best for her, as I've been told by most men and women throughout my life". Game and PUAs try to give men this ability, putting them in a much better position with women, leading to, for example, them not taking crazy shit from women they're partnered with due to not having any other option, or low self-esteem. Feminists obviously don't like this.

As for PUAs, I can divide them into a few different groups for how I think of them. First, there are the "softer" ones at /r/seduction, who basically preach "be a social, fun, confident guy, talk to a lot of girls, don't be desperate, and don't fall in love with any girl who pays a little attention to you". I'm a big fan of /r/seduction.

Second, there are the harder, darker, political ones like Roosh and Heartiste/Roissy. I like their criticisms of Feminism, and they provide a lot of really different insight into things. They're more likely to go deeper and, instead of saying "be confident", they'll say something like how most women like men who are dominant (going further with the whole confidence thing). But then you'll also get things like what Forney wrote here: "This is more true of women than men, as they are herd creatures by nature, but most of us are as interchangeable as spark plugs." Do I have any reason to believe that women are more prone to being herd-like than men? No, not really. But despite these things that I don't really agree with, I like the different perspectives.

Then there are the more commercial and methodical PUAs, I guess what I think Mystery and those people are. I don't really pay attention to them.

OuiCrudites · 2012-08-09T01:40:49+00:00

Because it is empowering male sexuality, and the pussy cartel can have none of that. It lowers the market value of vaj.
Because it puts the lie to all the bullshit that women say they want in a man.
Because it reveals that raw female sexuality is arguably more primitive, shallow, and base than male sexuality.
Because feminists want women to see men as beasts of burden, not see them as hotties to look up to.

OuiCrudites · 2012-08-08T21:45:49+00:00

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2012-08-09T01:26:33+00:00

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rottingchrist · 2012-08-09T09:20:14+00:00

Feminists don't actually smear game. They rage against it, but in the presence of a PUA, they practically melt I also remember another article about a female journalist who set out to learn about the PUA community, and in the end was pretty happy that they were teaching men "how to treat women well". I can't find the article right now.

However, even if it works, the PUA thing is not for me. Being a daddy-figure to a girl turns me off.

EpicJ · 2012-08-08T20:02:47+00:00

I honestly think it's disgusting to use a splash screen of the Hindenburg disaster to get attention for donations, and that is all I'm saying about that site.

MockingDead · 2012-08-08T21:13:22+00:00

I think PUAs will be fine. The game rules may change, but they'll still play. If it ever gets to the point where they can't, then they'll MGTOW.

Feminists can smear it all they want. They are not the target of it, and I've seen feminists fall to the game.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-08-09T07:19:21+00:00

I see pua's as hurt people using hurt language, it is telling that feminists deny anyone but themselves to be able to get angry.

Grapeban · 2012-08-09T01:22:56+00:00

[Trigger Warning] Rape, Rape Apology

So the article mentions Roosh as one of the "cool normal guys" of the PUA movement. This wouldn't be Roosh "No means yes" Valizedeh? Sayer of these immortal ~~rapist~~ PUA words of wisdom?

“No” when you try to take off her jeans or shirt means… “You need to turn me on a lot more.”

“No” when you try to take off her bra means… “Try again in five minutes.”

“No” when you try to take off her panties means… “Don’t give up now!”

I don't need to read anymore of this article if that's who it's sourcing as "cool" and "normal".

Ma99ie · 2012-08-08T22:58:22+00:00

Pua's are idiots.

AndIMustScream · 2012-08-09T01:12:21+00:00

Me: wtf is a pua?

(reads comments and article, everything assumes prior knowledge of acronym.

Sits and thinks.)

Pick Up Artist maybe?

no offense, y'all need to start at least spelling out the full acronym once per article.

I had no clue what MGTOW was for the longest time. I still have to think to remember, since it is not something that interests me.

2012-08-09T00:37:34+00:00

It's not just feminists picking on "game," women and other men have been picking on it for years with a lot of not so nice adjectives to describe what PUAs do.

Title	I know that a lot of you are not PUAs, but what are your thoughts about the way the feminists are starting to smear "game"?
Author	gege33
Upvotes	14
Comments	47
Date	August 8, 2012 7:35 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xwbez/i_know_that_a_lot_of_you_are_not_puas_but_what/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-know-that-a-lot-of-you-are-not-puas-but-what-are.1016275 https://theredarchive.com/post/1016275

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