Girl Writes What on the whole ladymra/MGTOW debacle.

[–]hardwarequestions 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[–]MrStonedOne[S] 13 points14 points15 points 14 years ago* (37 children) | Copy Link

A man who went his own way(he went MGTOW after FIVE false rape accusations) was asked to give some background for ladymra about MGTOW, they(ladymra mods) started asking him loaded questions like "So are you saying you distrust all women".

Then it quickly turned into a shouting match. they banned him for as far as i can tell, this comment:

Seeing as how you chose it as an opportunity to attack and insult me, I'll extend professional courtesy once. Attack me again and I will scratch hard enough to show your hatred plain as day...and then you're REALLY going to hate me. Do we really want that?

He used the phrase "attack and insult me" referring to their comments, not actual violence so its obv that him using it again in "Attack me again and I will scratch hard enough to show your hatred plain as day" is also a figure of speech.

They called that threats of violence and banned him for it. As far as i can tell at least, i know he got banned, but it is a little unclear as to why or what comment.

There is a lot to read in that thread on how they treated him, nitpicked at everything he said. told him he needed to find help then started getting pissed off because he was "insulting us" You see a lot of cases of them attempting to exploit female victim-hood response, There was a subtle undertone that he owned women his trust. That starting all interactions in a state of distrust or even a state of lack of trust(trust isn't a binary) was unacceptable.

They also were viscous to anyone who didn't support them in their banning, but you can see how nicely they reacted to GWW about it. (Then again, to be fair, this could just as easily be her notoriety then anything else)

The majority of the mra seemed to agree with him and disagree with the mods. Even some of the more known FeMRAs (GWW,TB)

Then they posted this about the riot, where they said things like "we wont allow people to call people whores" (open the thread they are referring to, and then open every "continue this thread", then do a control+f for the word whore. Only two people use it, a guy who was heavlily downvoted, and tends to get downvoted every time he posts in here, and a /r/ladymra mod. manufactured victim-hood based on false perception of a systematic problem.)

Edit: there is also this little comment by a ladymra mod, it shows a rather negative view of this subreddit in general.

[–]hardwarequestions 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]MrStonedOne[S] 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey, it was a major fuckball, but you're not going to hear many unbiased accounts. My detractors can correct me if I'm being biased.

Factory posted a link to a post he wrote about MGTOW. No, we did not ask him to, but that's fine.

Vegibowl found some of his statements to be sexist and generalizing women to much and she told him so. Alanna and I jumped in because we felt like the situation was getting out of hand and defended vigibowl. I guess we both felt he was being a sexist dick. Conversation digressed and became ugly. Factory told me we was going to "hound our posts", I think with the intent to prove we're not real MRAs but closet feminists.

I banned him for that comment because I didn't feel like dealing with him harassing us on every post. I'm feel like I did the right thing, even though a lot of people disagree with me.

I apologized for ganging up on him, but not for the banning. I also wrongly threatened to ban someone because I didn't like his tone and the direction I thought his post was going to go. I apologized for that.

GWW took his side and told us to stop being so sensitive.

The end result of all this is that we mods have agreed that /r/LadyMRAs needs to be a more friendly space that /r/MensRights is and we're going to mod it to keep it that way. I think if we were bigger, there would be less modding, but we're small and don't want our space clogged up with factory type posts, especially since he can do that here.

Lot's of people don't like me. :) I think that's about as unbiased as you're going to get.

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]klonozopanour 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheyCalledMeMad 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The point still stands, though. Some clarity might be obtained by taking a close yet simple look at the name. Men going their own way. This is not a single method of restructuring yourself (example: no more romantic relationships with women), it is creating a new path for yourself that works better than what has come before, whatever form that new path may take.

The way I interpret MGTOW is this: You have been scarred during your time in this world, and it has finally gotten to the point where it is motivation enough to take a step back, reorganize the way you look at things and go about things, and then create your own way of surviving society with your happiness and sanity intact. Because the way you've been doing things before now hasn't been working, that's why you've gotten to this point. Something about this does not function for you, and it is not worth it to continue to trudge along the old path just because it is familiar and "normal."

For some men, this involves refusing to date women. Something about it is not giving them what they need, or is too costly. This is their choice to make, and no one has the right to take it away from them, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make us.

So, I disagree: MGTOW and Lesbian Seperatism are two separate and distinct creatures.

[–]klonozopanour 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MrStonedOne[S] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

tbh, linking MGTOW to lesbian separatist isn't quite the same. refusing to date the gender you are attracted to is not the same as deciding to change your sexuality for superficial reasons.

MGTOW is largely due to how the system treats women who act bad in relationships, more so how it enables it.

And in this case, I really don't blame him. If I was subject to five false rape accusations i'd stop going near women, no matter how many women proved themselves trustworthy. And its funny, this might actually be the first time he dropped his guard around women in a long time, and look what happened. If ladymras wanted to convince him to trust women or some women, they just ruined the last chance they will ever have of doing so.

And if i found out a woman didn't trust men because she had been raped 5 times (or even once for that matter). I'm not going to be the slightest upset.

If I found out a women didn't trust men because she was worried that the system would not only allow them to abuse her without legal repercussions, but would help him out. I would have no issue with this view point.

It is a valid view point.

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

They're pretty similar. You think radfem reasons are superficial, I don't think they're any more or less superficial than MGTOW reasons. Advocating abstaining from all sex/relationships isn't that different from advocating swapping--you're still abstaining from something you would otherwise naturally want.

I don't blame him for the emotional PTSD, if his story's true, but I still won't excuse it. A rape victim has to learn to trust to be a healthy human being again. Same for if someone got mugged by black people five times. You need to look at what the greatest common divisor is, not what the lowest common denominator is. There's no reason to squash honeybees and bumblebees just because yellow jackets are mean, if you get the analogy. If you get five false rape accusations, you are somehow attracting or choosing crazy sociopaths who pull that shit, and while none of it is your fault, if you want to be happy, you've gotta put in some effort.

For example, say there's a black gang in your city. You get mugged and beaten up and robbed by many members on many occasions. They've even bought out the local police, so they just get away with it. That's not the fault of all black people, and it's not okay for you to want to avoid all black people always.

I was treated like shit for a long time, because I kept going after/attracting assholes who treated women like shit. Not because all men are assholes who cheat and lie and treat women like shit, but because I had blinders on and was stuck in a rut of similar but specific men who were assholes who cheat and lie and treat women like shit. It takes a long time and a lot of emotional maturity to build the trust back up and to be able to see what the warning signs are. As an immediate reaction, yes, it's perfectly understandable. But bigotry is never justifiable as a long-term solution.

[–]MrStonedOne[S] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There's no reason to squash honeybees and bumblebees just because yellow jackets are mean,

Sure there is, the reason is called "fuck bees". =P (No really, I hate bees)

For example, say there's a black gang in your city. You get mugged and beaten up and robbed by many members on many occasions. They've even bought out the local police, so they just get away with it. That's not the fault of all black people, and it's not okay for you to want to avoid all black people always.

In this case, i'd say it is. but you are forgetting something. in your example, the group of people who get this power isn't all blacks, its a select few of them.

What if it was a system where all blacks had the power to mistreat/assault/abuse/murder/etc and the justice system would enable and help them. Would you not say that its valid to distrust all blacks because of the system?

If the system gave us the power to legally emotionally abuse and/or ruin women they way it does now to us. I wouldn't be shocked if women wanted nothing to do with us. I wouldn't blame them.

[–]primaloath 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]InfinitelyThirsting -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The legal stacking can certainly apply to marital laws in most states, but despite the often-trumpted worries about common-law marriage coming from cohabitation, very few states in America actually have common-law marriage (Canada and other Western nations are different, of course).

The fears that every woman can destroy any man with false accusations is also very locale-dependent. One of my very good friends had his ex try to pull the domestic violence card on him during their messy divorce, and he didn't even get taken away. The cops took a look at the actual situation, and made the accurate decision that she was crazy. But some places do have laws/regulations that the man be always considered at fault. So it really depends on where you are.

Same for false rape accusations. They're both real issues. Being a man in a college town is more likely to be dangerous in that respect; a woman would have more to fear in the cities that have untested rape kits just sitting in warehouses for years, or for example Italy, where a rape case was thrown out because the judge decided that skinny jeans couldn't possibly be removed without consent.

MGTOW insisting that all of the Western system, everywhere, is a lost cause and a minefield for all men is, in my opinion, as ridiculous as a lot of what you hear from the radfems (we could get into a discussion of victim-blaming here, but I won't). Not everyone can move, but it's the generalizations that kill me. Yeah, in religious areas you're going to see a lot of sexual shaming and expected gender roles; in the upper crust you'll find a lot of gold diggers; but just because an area or a social class is generally awful doesn't mean everyone everywhere is. And I do think eventually you hit a point where if you are surrounded by terrible people, you have to stop just bitching about it, and find new people, because that shit ain't normal and there are plenty of good people out there.

I lean a lot more MRA than Feminist in every day life, because of where we are as a modern society. Also, because the feminist movement has been so tainted for so long by extremists and feminist chauvinists moving more mainstream. But I'm a strict egalitarian, and I just can't tolerate wide bigotry towards anyone.

[–]JockeVXO 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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IMO there was big toes on both sides of this overly tiny fence. Granted there was not an overwhelming welcome party of, "I want to understand," but it wasn't explicitly insulting either.

The OP relaying why he's a MGTOW took offense (or at least other MRA's did) to a question that you mentioned, "So are you saying you distrust all women?"

And I think that is a fair question to understand where he is coming from (i.e., his world view).

After all, I have felt the same way with feminists and there is a time for those of us who are trying to heal the gender divide to hang up our hats and go, "well this person is not someone we can reach out to or is a source for healing." This person is actually a example of how bad the divide is, how the current system is damaging our men and we need to understand how this has happened and why he feels this way.

And this later part is the mature response the LadyMRAs should have gone to, but I didn't see any room by either side to create that environment until Girlwriteswhat posted (which once again she is awesome).

In essence the butt hurt came down to his perspective that he is forced to be player (lie/manipulate) in dating. I personally found that ridiculous but granted maybe I seek partners on a different educational and emotional development level or I've been luckier (seriously). He wrote:

I see Game as the only reasonable way to approach women...and Politics.... Game is about understanding women, and instilling a backbone and some pride back into men. PUAs are the entry point...the 'how can I get chicks?' path...that is really 'How can I not be so soul destroyingly lonely?'. PUA is the fast-food approach to relationships, Game theory is the 5 star cooking instruction.

So here was the loaded gun for the knee jerk reaction that stopped the understanding of the following part where he supports this stance quite well:

And until men learn that it's not only OK, but necessary to stand against women's interests once in a while...that THIS is what turns women on (sort of) rather than supplication...well, they'll keep shoveling entitlements women's way hoping to earn their approval.

And I strongly support this last part because let's face it, men do roll over for women in today's society (manginas everywhere).

So I chalk up to a learning curve that I have personally witnessed tons of times myself being around feminists. And when it comes to those feminists who are incapable or unwilling to any longer see the perspective from the other side, it frankly becomes impossible to have a constructive conversation on how we as a society can heal and find equality -- they simply want more power at the cost of men. Anyone who absolutely has no trust of the opposite gender (which he does not fall into but is suspect of) is no longer capable, imo, to objectively see what equality is any longer. Seriously, this guy is promoting being a "player" as a method to get his needs met in a hostile environment and I don't care if you are a feminist or an MRA, that is a behavior that is rightfully questioned to see if your motives are bigotry. I don't feel the ladyMRAs did anything different then you and I would do in a feminist forum just as much if not worse.

TL;DR It was actually a great experience we can all learn from. (and I'm going to post this probably on this referring link as well, lol).

[–]TomBayes 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MockingDead 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it me, or does that original thread, and the response GWW recieve, paint most women in a poor light. GWW was reasonable in her assertions, and correct in her assertions, and the subreddit respectfully disagrees. To paraphrase another poster on this thread. "Go ahead and disagree, it doesn't change what is true."

Makes me want to go my own way even more so. Were their better ways he could have said his statements, more tactful ways? This isn't kindergarten or a feminized board room. And, they could have used a less loaded question, or prefaced the loaded question with qualifications.

Factory2 did them the service of explaining what a MGTOW was to him and they began resorted to the same, tired arguments and accusations that plague men who don't worship the vajayjay. My friend who has a vasectomy gets them all the time. I get them. So much for favors.

/R/ladymra is very close to being considered a troll subreddit to me.

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[–]klonozopanour 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]klonozopanour 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm talking about the same thing really.

The more "inclusive" something tries to be, the less "radical", and more "status-quo" it will be.

The thing is...

Women are the only ones who can ever identify as a MRA and be taken seriously. They are essentially the only acceptable voices for the movement.

Men need to actually do everything possible not to be the head of the movement and stay in the shadows as much as possible. Our silent protest, and the ability to spread our truth is all that we have.

We do not have a real voice in this, as our voice is only heard by our fellow oppressed.

All we can do is increase our faceless masses, and implant the seeds of dissent into the minds of every exploited man. All we can do is help show men how to emancipate themselves.

As men, we can only work on an individual level with other men.

Beyond that we must hide. Put on our mask, and blend in with the status-quo that sees us as nothing more than cattle for the state.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]klonozopanour 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's impossible to not have people in this movement that won't end up "dividing" it.

Especially as it becomes more, "mainstream" and resembles a "movement".

The more it resembles a traditional activist structure, the more it will be co-opted.

doch_doch is essentially just a part of the status-quo attempting to subdue the movement.

That's why the real men's movement ISN'T something that can be identified.

The real men's movement has to do with truth, and passing these ideas of truth to those we can.

Because simply put, because it is truth, it cannot be disproved by the status-quo and their constant tactics of co-opting and subversion.

We must conduct ourselves the same way as those who knew the Earth revolved around the Sun when it was heresy to say such things did.

Eventually they must come to accept what everyone else has taken as proof, or be regulated to the dust-bin of history.

For even the Christian Church, for all it's worldly power and social control could not deny the truth of what revolved around without losing all credibility, and losing all it's followers.

It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.

We must fight with mustard seeds.

[+]stphilistine -9 points-8 points-7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Girl Writes What on the whole ladymra/MGTOW debacle.
Author	MrStonedOne
Upvotes	31
Comments	56
Date	July 23, 2012 8:50 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/x0b09/girl_writes_what_on_the_whole_ladymramgtow_debacle/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/girl-writes-what-on-the-whole-ladymramgtow-debacle.1017376 https://theredarchive.com/post/1017376

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