"Sexism": I do not think it means what you think it means.

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[–]xatmatwork 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Well, since it appears you genuinely agree with this, I'd like to play devil's advocate.

Firstly, on the definition of sexism. Even if it were, in the current status quo, impossible for a woman to be sexist towards a man, this would not make it objectively impossible for a woman to ever be sexist towards a man, since the status quo might change. So the definition should still include the possibility. Otherwise what you're saying is analogous to this: "I have my eyes closed at the moment, and I cannot see anything. Therefore I shall declare myself blind."

Secondly, on the definition of power. You might at first glance not notice the hidden jump from "any power" in one sentence to "institutional power" in the next sentence. So even if women had no institutional power at the moment (whatever that means, I'll get onto that), that would not be enough for them to never be able to be sexist. You just need some kind of power to be sexist. This could be personal (physical or emotional), it could be an employee/employer relationship, it could be a policewoman, and so on. Any of these positions of power could allow a woman to use prejudice in combination with her power, to abuse that power, and fit the definition of sexism provided.

Thirdly, on institutional power. Now, we need to break down what this definition means when it claims "women lack the institutional power that men have". Surely we have to conclude that they are trying to claim that women have no institutional power, since they are trying to claim that women can't be sexist, not that they're sexist less often. So, what does this entail, having no institutional power? To me, this would basically mean no political power whatsoever. Which would require:

The inability to vote.

OR

The inability to stand for office.

I don't believe either are true. Now, we can admit that it is most probably more difficult for a woman to make it to a position of political power. And because of this, men have a significantly higher level of power over institutionalized discrimination than woman. This I will admit. But there are two important things we must note:

This is very very very far away from the goal of demonstrating that women can't be sexist
We must also be very careful of making the conclusion that when it comes to institutionalized sexism, when the people in power are mainly men, they are only going to be sexist towards women. This is probably built on the assumption that institutionalized sexism is often (or always) intentionally sexist. But in reality we can see that is not very true. One good example of this is selective service and other forms of conscription around the world. Nearly every patriarchal society in history has still opted to send the "disposable" men to war and keep the women (and children) safe away from the fighting.

In conclusion, under the definition of sexism requiring "prejudice plus power", it would require a very large amount of dishonesty and non sequiturs to start at the imbalance of power in the current political system and arrive at the conclusion that "women cannot be sexist".

[–]Spiderwarrior -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]xatmatwork 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Give me a definition of sexism, and then I'll tell you and give examples.

For example if your definition is, as in the original definition we were talking about, prejudice + power, then as I said, all you need is power, which women can easily have. A policewoman who arrests a man for a crime but looks the other way when she sees a woman perform the same crime, is guilty of sexism.

And as I said earlier, it doesn't even have to be power of authority. You can be sexist as an employer, with who you choose to hire / raise / promote / give the nasty jobs to; you can be sexist as a person in a heterosexual relationship if you are the primary income provider and your partner relies on you in that way - you can even use this kind of power over someone in combination with any prejudice you might have.

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[–]Arlieth 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Here's the difference between you and I: If you're going to argue about logic, it shouldn't fucking matter if you're a man or a woman.

No, sexism is discrimination based upon sexual criteria. Sexual Oppression is an expression of power structure. You can also have a situation where men are more 'oppressed' than women are, particularly in a field such as child education where women enjoy the privilege (yes, privilege applies here) of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to sexual exploitation of their students. It doesn't matter if that 3rd Grade male teacher has a Ph.D in Child Development, he's still going to get nervous parents at those PTA meetings.

I'm going to paraphrase one of my own sayings here: Privilege is being able to go about your business without having to answer to anyone's criticisms.

Under our laws, women enjoy equal access and rights. If they did not, it would be oppression. Oppression is overt power, including censorship; something that feminists are quick to implement in the name of political correctness, and for an example of this kind of oppression taken to its actual, practical extreme, you've got someone in the UK being fined for calling someone a pikey.

It is the height of irony and a matter of blatant intellectual dishonesty that feminists seek to utilize the very abuses of power that they fight against, and then on moral grounds of privilege, declare that they are incapable of oppression and censorship because they're doing it for the 'right reasons'. It's one of the reasons that I find myself sympathizing with the moderators of this subreddit, because they have been forced to defend this subreddit's integrity by implementing self-post bots to prevent feminists from making a self-post, waiting for several hundred upvotes, and then completely changing it into a call to rape women and going "See, look at what MRAs support!"

Feminists frequently re-write the 'definitions' of words and then pick fights based upon semantic differences, and all this does is alienate feminists even moreso from mainstream society, creating an 'Us vs. Them' dynamic that is absolutely horrible for facilitating compromise but is absolutely fantastic for cultivating ideological purity.

I fucking hate it when Christians do this. I fucking hate it when Republicans do this. I fucking hate it when Feminists do this. I REALLY hated it when Laurelai did this out of a misguided effort to unify the multitude of agendas in /r/LGBT, though I have nothing against her personally and I can sort of understand why she did it.

In fact, I pretty much fucking hate any ideological movement that tries to pull this shit on me.

EDIT: Removed various arguments about oppression, I really need to smoke a cigar before I hit the Post button sometimes.

[+]sensitivePornGuy -18 points-17 points-16 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I am not interested in your definition of "sexist" in that case. But I am interested in oppression, which is the systematic denial of rights on some arbitrary basis (eg gender).

Your examples are stupid. What has the "pikey" incident got to do with feminism? While I oppose the use of speech which reinforces oppressive structures I would stop well short of utilising the power of the state - the real oppressor - against people who use that kind of language, and so should we all.

I'm also against an "us vs them" dynamic, and cordially invite everyone who is genuinely interested in gender equality to wise up about the real power dynamics at work - not the petty squabbles between exploited, oppressed individuals like us - and become a feminist anarchist like me.

Edit: oh, by the way, I only mentioned my own gender in response to "Can someone tell me where women like this get their definitions from? "

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I don't see political correctness as specifically feminist. Making laws about it was what happened back in the 80s when left-leaning people got a bit of political power but nowhere near enough to actually do anything important. Totally agree that as it became part of the state apparatus it became a tool of oppression.

My agenda is is overthrowing capitalism. Its oppressive structures will dissolve or radically change their nature when that happens. I don't put all my energy into fighting gender inequality because it's a symptom, not a cause. If feminism were about establishing a matriarchy I would fight it, but it's not - that just sounds like MR paranoia.

I agree that a male teacher of young kids has to overcome a degree of distrust that a woman in a similar situation does not. By your definition that is sexist, but it doesn't reflect any power structure I can think of so I don't find it a politically compelling example.

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[–]woop_dee_flip_n_doo 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

Well, just so you know, I am trying very hard to help men with the men's rights movement, I want to help and understand and I sincerely care about your rights. I'm not a waste of time and I'm open to any suggestion you may have so long as it's respectful and legitimate. I'm not a totalitarian or a feminist and I know very well that statistics are not always a reality. I advocate for men's rights but I also keep in mind what women have to face as well. It's only fair. Why must you be so aggressive when someone questions your logic? That's a good thing! You'll grow as a person. I can tell you right now that most women, at least in my encounters, believe in equality and not the twisted feminist ideal where women get away with everything. Relax, you're not alone okay? I will try my hardest to tell women about men's issues so that there is more understanding for your problems. Relax.

[–]Arlieth 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]woop_dee_flip_n_doo 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I am trying very hard to help men with the men's rights movement, I want to help and understand and I sincerely care about your rights.

Yeah, there's a ton of you on places like this....and NO WHERE ELSE. And the only evidence you exist are your contentions...NONE of you ever have any examples of how you support men...just that you personally don't share the blame for the fucked up shit Feminists have done in YOUR name for 5 decades.

I'm not a waste of time and I'm open to any suggestion you may have so long as it's respectful and legitimate.

Ah, so unless it's delivered in a properly deferential tone, and an issue you personally deem 'important', well...we can all go fuck ourselves. And right back atcha, sister.

I'm not a totalitarian or a feminist and I know very well that statistics are not always a reality, I was simply pointing out that what I read in one study counters what another person is claiming, I found that to be interesting not fact!

Your faith in your 'betters' is not shared here in the MRM. In fact, appeals to authority are stock-in-trade for feminist totalitarians, largely because they know even studying men's issues is a career ender for most folks. The really interesting thing is how women kneejerk react to this info with "But I'm not like that" as if they are somehow innocent in all things.

Which is why I have decided that I will not even TRY and distinguish....when virulent manhaters and the average woman are nearly indistinguishable...why should we have any warm feelings for you? What have YOU done to fix this mess? What have YOU done to stop the hate?

Oh, that's right....you tell those objecting to their second class status to 'be nice' and suck it up.

My response:

Go fuck yourself princess.

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Oh my god. SHUT THE FUCK UP. You don't know me and I don't feel like telling you my life story. I don't want your fucking praise. If you don't like me, just leave me alone. If you don't want my support, fine by me, but there are men who actually want me to be with them. I'll be glad to help them signing petitions, bringing stories of injustice to men into the spotlight, I'll argue against the people who don't see the injustice and most importantly I will strive to protecting the liberties of these men. I am currently doing the exact same thing with women's rights. So where the fuck do you get the idea that I'm looking for praise? WHY THE FUCK WOULD I WASTE MY FUCKING TIME DOING THAT? I have real motivations, I'm looking for understanding and true equality, simply sticking to women's issues will never get me there.

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Title	"Sexism": I do not think it means what you think it means.
Author	Arlieth
Upvotes	220
Comments	94
Date	May 16, 2012 2:37 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tpbd3/sexism_i_do_not_think_it_means_what_you_think_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/sexism-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it.1021771 https://theredarchive.com/post/1021771

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