Man and r/MensRights attacked on Reddit for claiming men do not approve of rap.

[–]kragmoor 88 points89 points90 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MRhypocritz 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Actually, it's not exactly the same. How often does 2x invade mensrights? Oh right, fucking NEVER, because we're not a bunch of shitheads. When was the last time that 2x invaded ANY subreddit? NEVER, because 2x mods have rules against invasion. The shithead mods here don't give a shit about invasions, because if MRA didn't invade other subreddits nobody would give a shit about them.

What have MRA done besides whine on the Internet and invade women's spaces?

Not. A. Fucking. Thing.

Please note that I haven't criticized any of the mensrights talking points. I don't have a horse in this race. All I see is a bunch of assholes invade other subreddits and then get all butthurt when nobody likes them.

Newsflash, you are all the laughing stock of the Internet. Nobody will ever take your "movement" seriously. Ever. I'm willing to bet my whole life and everything on it.

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[–]Jess_than_three 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Part of the problem is the equivocation between what was being said (to paraphrase):

"Some [perhaps many] men pat each other on the backs for successful rapes, because [and this is a crucial part of the dialogue] neither the back-patter nor the back-pattee recognize the act in question as having fundamentally been rape"

and what was being responded to:

"All men, everywhere, consciously support rape and rapists"

At worst, the people in that thread were for the most part saying that some (perhaps most) men do not recognize some things that they (the speakers) consider to be rape, as rape. Yes, this arguably constitutes "deciding how [some] men must really think"; however, it is not nearly as dramatic as what you're saying.

...Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have responded, since I didn't downvote you. Oh well.

[–]Mitschu -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No actually amongst men most 'rapists' are actually congratulated for the act. They just don't use the word 'rape.' Rather they tell stories of how they managed to coerce girls into having sex with them as if it were some mighty conquest and get pats on the back for it.

Is not even a leap, but rather a rephrasing:

Men congratulate most rapists by, amongst other things, patting them on the back for their conquests.

Not some men, not a few men, not many men. Just men in general. No consciousness invoked, either.

And even if the implication was that some ("perhaps many", as you keep feeling the urge to add for some reason, as though using perhaps is a form of bridge that separates beyond rebuttal what is said from what is intended) men do not recognize what other people believe is rape is actually rape; that's still mostly a matter of opinion, being falsely attributed to males, by a group predominantly composed of women, which is not dramatic so much as it is a statement of truth.

Go ahead and downvote me, I prefer brutal honesty when discussing opinions. What I don't like is the baseless accusation being hypocritically made about truthfulness from someone falsely attributing sentiment to me while arguing that I'm overreacting by falsely attributing sentiment to others.

And whoo, that was a mouthful.

[–]Jess_than_three 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is not even a leap, but rather a rephrasing:

I like how you want to pretend that rephrasing and reframing something isn't a leap, but okay.

that's still mostly a matter of opinion, being falsely attributed to males,

LOL.

It's a matter of opinion... and false? That sure is interesting.

If you disagree with the claim, address the claim (not to me; to them). But don't paint your opponent as arguing something else entirely.

Go ahead and downvote me

Oh, fuck off with your martyr complex already. Like I said, I haven't done so to begin with. I downvote people for being assholes, not because I disagree with them. Maybe you downvote people you disagree with, but I find that highly problematic.

What I don't like is the baseless accusation

Cool. I don't like the baseless accusations you were making.

[–]Mitschu -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, sheesh, this is going to be fun. You ignore common sense to make personal attacks, but /aren't/ a troll. Fascinating.

Rephrasing something is not a leap.

"More women than men are child molesters." "Therefore, all women are evil and shouldn't be trusted around children."

THAT is a leap.

"More women than men are child molesters." "Therefore, children are more at risk of being molested around women, than around men."

THAT is a rephrase.

Please tell me you can see the difference.

Secondly:

Something can be a matter of opinion AND be falsely attributed to another person. Note that I said "falsely attributed" not "false" period.

For example, "I believe that all women are sluts, because that's what Jess_than_three also believes."

That is an opinion, AND I falsely attributed it to you. See how that works now?

Third: I disagreed with the claim. You disagreed with my interpretation of the claim. I am now disagreeing with you. Do you see how THAT works out?

Fourth: "Go ahead and downvote me, I prefer brutal honesty when discussing opinions." Didn't you just say something about quoting people out of context and claiming people are saying something other than what they said? Let's have a refresher course:

You implied that you believed that I would not allow you to discuss this with me without an accompanying downvote. I stated that that was not the case, but feel free to downvote me if you desired.

So, now that we've dealt with me being accused of being a martyr because I prefer honesty and integrity over reddit voting for popular opinion, let's move on.

You downvote people for being assholes, not because you disagree with them. I ponder whether or not you embrace the flip side of that; do you refuse to upvote people because you agree with them, and do you only upvote people who are meticulously unoffensive?

This of course ignores the fact that both qualifiers are your opinion only, and that what they tell a person about your character is that you prefer political correctness (views that don't offend) over original thought (views that people might disagree with.)

And finally, I'm glad we both agree that baseless accusations are bad, m'kay?

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[–]Demonspawn 11 points12 points13 points 14 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

The entire thread is just a bunch of women expecting the entire world to revolve around them and be made safe for them rather than them taking any responsibility for their own self-protection.

"I can't believe we live in a society that teaches 'lock up your stuff' instead of 'don't steal'"

"I can't believe we live in a society that teaches 'avoid the bad parts of town' rather than 'don't hurt people'"

Seriously. Apply that to any crime other than rape, and you'd facepalm so fucking hard you'd hurt yourself. But as soon as it's rape, the crime that they believe only happens to women, now all the sudden it's men's responsibility to make the world safe for them rather than them taking care of their goddamn selves.

That thread is full of women screaming at the top of their lungs that they are not self-responsible adults. I think it's long past time we discontinued the insanity of treating them as adults when they clearly aren't.

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But as soon as it's rape, the crime that they believe only happens to women, now all the sudden it's men's responsibility to make the world safe for them rather than them taking care of their goddamn selves.

Precisely, I believe this is because with crimes that society believes happens only to women, it becomes "special". The same applies to domestic violence. It's no longer just a crime, it's a "special crime" and it's a sign of oppression. Seriously, the amount of feminists using women being victims of these "special crimes" to "prove" that women are oppressed, the mind boggles. Crimes being committed is proof of oppression, but only when they are crimes that we believe happen more/uniquely to women. I think this is one of the main reasons feminists don't want to acknowledge that men are victims of these "special crimes" to the same extent (or more often than) women are.

[–]Mitschu -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Mitschu -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

As a childhood anecdote, my father once asked me who was at fault in the following example:

A wealthy man decides he wants to park his car in the shade on the "bad" side of town so that he doesn't have to walk an extra block to get to his office. He puts away his newspaper, headline "More Cars Missing in Downtown Slums!", rolls down his window to keep the car cool, hops out of the car, and decides to leave his keys in the ignition and his wallet on the dashboard, so that when he gets off for lunch, he can just drive off quickly. As he is walking away, he disables the car alarm to save himself some time later. Five minutes after he walks away, someone slinks out of the shadows and drives away in his car. Who is more at fault?"

Being young and naive, I declared that no matter what, the thief was at fault.

Now that I'm older and more cynical, I declare that the man was doing everything except slapping a note on the windshield reading "Free car to good home." and is thus more at fault.

[–]Hindu_Wardrobe 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mitschu -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It's the difference between responsibility and culpability.

Boiling down the anecdote above, it would be essentially:

"Hey man, take this fully loaded handgun, point it at me, and squeeze the trigger a few times. I bet you I can dodge bullets!"

Now, I'm almost entirely responsible for murdering you. You, however, are almost entirely culpable for the murder, for setting up a set of inevitable outcomes that would ultimately lead to your death. At any point, you could have exercised your human agency to mitigate or eliminate the risk involved (emptying the handgun, not giving the handgun to someone who would shoot you on command, not asking to be shot, etcetera,) but you chose not to.

In determining guilt, one looks exclusively at responsibility. In determining fault, society tends to look at responsibility (as it should!) and ignore culpability (which it shouldn't), especially when dealing with women.

[–]Mitschu -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]Mitschu -7 points-6 points-5 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Using rape as an example to further define rape victim culpability (which is not the same as responsibility) - using a female victim for simplicity's sake:

A female is heading home from the bar, a little tipsy, by herself. Her house is a block away, but if she cuts down the stereotypically dark alleyway and passes the menacing looking man fiddling with a knife, she'll get home 15 seconds quicker. Or she can continue heading down the well lit, public street, and get home a little later.

She is purposefully culpable if she walks up to the man, kicks him in the nuts, and screams "Hurry up and rape me already!"
She is knowingly culpable if she walks up to the man, sneers in his face, and taunts, "I know you don't have the balls to rape me."
She is recklessly culpable if she walks up to the man and starts chatting with him about how sharp that knife looks, figuring that he won't rape /her/ specifically.
She is negligently culpable if she completely ignores the man and just walks past him.

[+]Mitschu -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlightsFancy 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Here's something to chew on: most rapes are not committed by strangers. Your "dark alley" example, in which a woman should take responsibility for her own assault, does not apply to the majority of rapes or sexual assaults that take place. From The National Center for Victims of Crime, since you're not likely to take my word for it:

Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997).

A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002).

And please note they're talking about rape, here, not sexual assault, before you claim that these statistics are misleading or unclear about the central term.

So, how can women prevent being raped by someone they know, and likely trust? How would you like to assign culpability? Because these women aren't walking down the stereotypical dark alley half-drunk, heedless of the consequences of their actions. They're spending time with someone they know. They're out on a date, they're watching movies with a friend, they're participating in a study group. They're at home with their husband or boyfriend.

This is something that never comes up in discussions about women's "responsibility" in facilitating their own assault. You're not addressing any of the reasons why women are actually raped, because it has nothing to do with what they were wearing, what they were drinking, or where they were walking. And you're more interested in blaming women for their own rapes than you are in addressing the central question: why do men rape?

And yes, of course women rape men. But you want to address female responsibility and identity and accountability following a rape, so I'm narrowing my response to the circumstances you want to address.

So, please, in all your wisdom, give women some tips as to how they can prevent being raped by a man they know and trust. I'd sure like to hear your take on who is culpable in that situation (i.e. the majority of rapes).

[–]Mitschu -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh, I'm aware of those statistics, hence why I prefaced my example with "the stereotypically dark alley." I was invoking a stereotype, with warning, to give an easy to recognize context. But if we want to break it down, culpability is a simple fact of life. No matter what, there is always something you could have done differently to prevent the situation; to deny that is the most basic way of denying agency. Culpability doesn't limit itself to plausibility, just possibility. In the same way that the woman who is studying with their boyfriend could have paid better attention to the warning signs (and don't deny that they exist), a man who gets shot walking home /could/ have chosen to obtain and wear a bullet proof vest.

Culpability doesn't care about impracticality or unreasonableness. It merely raises the point, "No matter how much it might have discomforted you, there were options available that you didn't take."

I mentioned before that culpability and responsibility were separate faces of the issue, perhaps I should have clarified that they aren't /equal/ faces of the issue.

People who only focus on responsibility tend to say things like "We should teach people not to rape."

People who only focus on culpability tend to say "We should teach people how not to get raped."

Moderates tend to recognize both, and say "We should make sure that society doesn't encourage rape; but since rape will inevitably occur, we should also teach people how to avoid being raped."

Again, stop conflating the two as though they were the same. In some cases (my "car" example above) the culpability of the victim is even to, or even exceeding, the responsibility of the criminal. In other cases (rape, assault, etc.) culpability is something that should be acknowledged as secondary to responsibility.

"Of course" is commonly used to trivialize an observation, by the way. "Of course eating ice cream will cool you down during the summer." "Of course the sky is darker at night." So semantically I'm offended by "Of course women rape men." But that's neither here nor there, I understand your intention, just disapprove of the phrasing.

In all my wisdom, well, here we go. Fellow rape survivors, gather around, my teaching has been requested.

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Okay, our society teaches "rape is wrong" but it also sends a lot of mixed messages about what constitutes rape. I think most people (men and women) recognize that the violent dark-alley form of rape is a crime. But most rapes aren't committed by an unknown perpetrator in a dark alley. Rapists don't always punch or smack or slap their victims. Rapists don't always use a weapon. And because there's a perception in our society that a rape has consistent elements (violence, a dark alley, a stranger) that's the only kind of rape we teach is wrong.

But in reality, rapists can be the guy (or girl) next door. They can be your husband, wife, or boyfriend/girlfriend. Your professor. Your coach. Your lab partner. Your relative. Your best friend. There are a million situations in which these people can take advantage of an unwilling person and not think that they've raped someone.

That is what isn't taught, when it comes to rape. The crime is presented as a black-and-white scenario, when in fact most rapes can seem to be a little "grey", even to the perpetrator.

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

"No means no" is taught as early as grade 8, from where I am from. Children are taught to avoid strangers or bad touching from even earlier ages. Your assertion that only the "violent dark alley rape" is taught is a complete fabrication, at least as far as my own experiences go.

We have a legal system for a reason - because many laws leave a lot of gray area, either in terms of culpability or in terms of sentencing. And while there is likely a lot (relatively speaking) of people who get caught up in the moment and don't listen to their partner say "stop" or "no", there are also a lot of people (again, relatively speaking) who are not insistent on their "stop" or "no", or who change their mind afterwards. It is really impossible to tell between these scenarios, however, since it comes down to "he said, she said" (or various other gendered versions of that). And our laws are predicated on innocent until proven guilty, which is something to admire, not something to change.

[–]FlightsFancy 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlightsFancy 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No, you offered your personal experience as proof that all people are well-educated as to what constitutes rape. That's not "speaking globally," that's offering a ridiculous and unsupported assertion despite the fact that, wow, some people (including yourself) seem to be confused as to what rape is.

You are expanding the concept of rape to include cases that are not rape.

Which examples precisely aren't rape? The one where, in the midst of sex, one partner says, "stop" and the other partner continues? Or when someone says, "no" but it's not "insistent" enough, and the sex continues? Last time I checked, rape occurs when someone says no and the sexual act continues.

Absence of consent does not necessarily mean no. That is an assertion you are making. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I stipulate that consent can be given non-verbally.

Consent can be given non-verbally, but it is easy to misinterpret physical cues. If you want to be absolutely, 100% sure that your partner wants to have sex with you, they should give you an enthusiastic affirmative response. It's not that complicated. And asking for that consent is not something that is widely taught in our society. Unless you have consent, you do risk legitimately being accused of rape. (I'm not talking about false allegations, here - I'm talking about situations in which the victim wholeheartedly believes that they did not give consent to sex).

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlightsFancy 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Which conflated definition? "rape occurs when someone says no and the sexual act continues"? I don't see how that's "conflated".

Look, your first point was, "Our society DOES teach not to rape. It very specifically tells kids (and adults) that rape is wrong". I offered a counterpoint position ("[our society] also sends a lot of mixed messages about what constitutes rape."] You responded, ""No means no" is taught as early as grade 8, from where I am from...Your assertion that only the "violent dark alley rape" is taught is a complete fabrication, at least as far as my own experiences go." I said that your personal experience is not proof that our society is taught about the myriad circumstances in which rape happens.

So where, exactly, did I strawman you? Give me the quote. Otherwise, stop hiding behind the cliched accusations people toss out when their argument loses steam and they have nothing of substance to contribute.

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I said:

It very specifically tells kids (and adults) that rape is wrong, it tells kids (and adults) that criminals will be punished/there are consequences for their actions. People choose to commit crimes, rape included, regardless.

You said:

And because there's a perception in our society that a rape has consistent elements (violence, a dark alley, a stranger) that's the only kind of rape we teach is wrong.

Note - you said that it is the only kind of rape that we teach that is wrong.

I replied with:

"No means no" is taught

This is the essence of lack of consent based rape. If at least one instance of a different kind of rape awareness being taught is wrong, then your assertion is proven wrong.

You replied with:

I guess acquaintance rape and date rape doesn't happen, because everyone knows "no means no", right?

You clearly forgot that I had originally said:

People choose to commit crimes, rape included, regardless.

In another vein of the argument, I had made the statement:

there are also a lot of people (again, relatively speaking) who are not insistent on their "stop" or "no", or who change their mind afterwards.

To which you replied with:

I would like to point out, however, that the situations you gave (people getting "caught up in the moment" and not listening to their partner, people continuing to have sex with a partner who doesn't give an "insistent" no) are all, in fact, instances of rape. Not "he said, she said."

But either you are ignorant or you clearly ignored the part where I prefaced my statements with:

We have a legal system for a reason - because many laws leave a lot of gray area, either in terms of culpability or in terms of sentencing.

I was clearly discussing the legal application of "rape". In a court, there is no way to determine who said what or in what way. Therefore it actually is an instance of "he said, she said". People on both sides are able to change their stories, but more importantly, people on both sides remember the instance differently! False memories are pretty easy to come by, in case you aren't following recent psych studies.

Additionally, when you said "the situations that you gave", you are not explicitly excluding the instance where I discussed changing their mind after sex. That is, in fact, not a case of rape. It is what you are conflating.

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Title	Man and r/MensRights attacked on Reddit for claiming men do not approve of rap.
Author	toolzb
Upvotes	0
Comments	129
Date	May 6, 2012 5:58 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t9xed/man_and_rmensrights_attacked_on_reddit_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/man-and-rmensrights-attacked-on-reddit-for.1022394 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022394

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