Just a thing I'd like to say about feminists coming to this subreddit and how they're received

Wordshark · 2012-04-30T15:34:52+00:00

Feminists that come here in good faith are treated accordingly, feminists that come here in bad faith are told to fuck off.

Feminists that act like they're entitled to hold us to higher standards than feminists hold themselves are often told to fuck off too.

Equa1 · 2012-04-30T14:07:15+00:00

By blurting out, "You're a feminist? Fuck off!"

the problem is that feminism is undefined. A woman claiming to want gender equality is usually treated fairly. A woman claiming that feminism is about gender equality is also usually treated fairly: her definition of feminism is shown to be incorrect.

But, as has been said by people from this same subreddit: you can't generalise a whole demographic, such as black people, men or feminists.

no, but we can say that "feminism" is not, by definition, some angelic idea worthy of worship. Feminism remains undefined.

Attacking feminism, is swinging a sword at a fart. Praising feminism is calling the fart perfume.

Examining feminism to separate out the praiseworthy ideas: gender equality, equal treatment, equal respect - from the trash: respect only for females, protection only for females, special treatment for females, is to sift through the fart for microscopic remnants of the food that is freely available elsewhere.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-04-30T12:29:50+00:00

you can't generalise a whole demographic, such as black people, men or feminists.

Actually you can when it comes to a "demographic" that is composed entirely by a belief system. Ethnicity and gender are traits a person is born with, not a belief that a person consciously chooses. Just like religion, there is nothing wrong with criticizing such belief systems.

rightsbot · 2012-04-30T11:34:14+00:00

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jessers25 · 2012-04-30T18:04:46+00:00

TL;DR: stop calling out all feminists here as man-haters or "unwanted",

This flat out does not happen. I was called a feminist when I told an anecdote (wanting equality, not priority) on this subreddit and I don't even classify as one. When a redditor called me a feminist, they weren't using it as an insult.

You're stereotyping MRs as being as judgmental as feminists are stereotyped to be. If you're egalitarian, drop the gender completely.

kragmoor · 2012-04-30T13:10:43+00:00

give me one example aside from obvious sockpuppets and srs that that has ever EVER happened

Subversive · 2012-04-30T11:40:52+00:00

Yeah yeah, Not All Feminists Are Like That etc etc. Heard it all before.

Read the FAQ, esp. #13, for our stock rebuttal.

2012-04-30T17:46:52+00:00

You (and feminists) seem to have this notion that we are just dying to hear a feminist's opinion here, as if we didn't have plenty coming here to shout it.. that we are somehow motivated to get more feminists here, as if we really wanted more feminists around.

We aren't. We don't.

The thing we really don't care to have more of - is feminists coming here to tell us what to do. We don't want more feminists who think they are going to "school those mra's"

Come here as a feminist looking for insight/information - you'll get it.

Come here as a feminist looking for a fight - you'll get it too.

Alanna · 2012-04-30T18:55:23+00:00

you can't generalise a whole demographic, such as black people, men or feminists.

Black people
Men
Feminists

One of these things is not like the others.

It's like saying that you can't generalize males by saying they have a penis or a Y chromosome, or you can't generalize black people by saying they have a higher level of melanin. We are generalizing them by the very things that define them-- belief in the historical and current oppression of women by a patriarchal system.

Not all feminists are anti-male.

True! But almost all feminists support anti-male policies, ideas, and legislation, intentionally or unintentionally. Have you ever met a feminist who doesn't support VAWA?

Some feminists do believe in equal rights for all, but they've simply been convinced of the statistics and words blurted out by the mainstream feminist agenda.

And the vast majority, when confronted with the the truth, refuse to believe it because everyone knows that women are raped more, women are abused more, women make less, it just SUCKS to be a woman, everyone knows that!

My point is, when a feminist comes here asking a question or replying to a comment and they say they're a feminist, we can't blurt out ourselves, in a similar incoherent and aggressive manner, that they are horrible human beings simply because today, there and then, they say they're feminists. That's adhereing to the ad hominem logical fallacy and the strawman.

The general response I see is an obligatory, boilerplate refutation of NAFALT, explaining that we're talking about the feminists in power, and that, besides, when it comes down to it, most self-described feminists will continue to argue-- many ignorantly-- out of self-defense of their chosen worldview. Incoherent and aggressive responses are generally from trolls. I'm as staunch a supporter of men's rights as they come (and a woman), and I've been called a feminist and a troll myself several times. Almost everyone who has done so was subsequently banned or the account deleted within months.

Our response ought to be to reply and say why they are incorrect in what they're saying, or how we'd modify slightly what they're saying in a way that more represents the view of egalitarianism and equality between human beings we agree upon in /r/MensRights.

At the risk of sounding like the feminist subreddits, it's not our job to educate people on basic men's rights. We have a sidebar. After trying to be patient with newbs for months, I understand now why feminists get sick of explaining their points over and over and over and just say "educate yourself."

By blurting out, "You're a feminist? Fuck off!"

Who does this? Seriously?

SilencingNarrative · 2012-04-30T15:36:16+00:00

I agree that when someone calling themselves a feminist arrives here to look around, we shouldn't respond with "you're a feminist? fuck off!".

However, I do think our constant tarnishing of the name of feminism is warranted, and I keep seeing new arrivals that identify as feminists getting pissed off at us for blaming feminism for supporting as much misandry as it does.

Here is one such I recently engaged. She claims to have come here wanting to learn about male issues in good faith, but is turned off by our constant discussion of incidents of women behaving badly.

I doubt she actually is open to the idea that men have serious issues, but I haven't made up my mind yet. We shall see if she pursues the conversation any further. The fact that she won't name a single issue she considers legitimate is a red flag for me.

I find her particular objection, that we should stop discussing anecdotes and focus on careful statistical research, interesting. I think the constant discussion of anecdotes, and what they mean, is an essential activity for any rights movement, and further that feminism as a movement has done this well.

I think finding, and taking advamtage of anecdotes that resonate with the public (the "lilly ledbetter" fair pay act, for example), is a necessary pre-cursor before the public will even pay attention to any statistics you might have to offer. I interpret the feminists who come here complaining about our focus on anecdotes as realizing that our anecdotes are starting to resonate and getting nervous about how effective they are, then trying to talk us our of the general strategy, then going back to feminist forums where anecdotal analysis is a major activity.

AgentmraOrangemrm · 2012-04-30T20:52:28+00:00

Why should we respect anyone who identifies with a hateful ideology?

bookwench · 2012-04-30T23:56:15+00:00

Hi! My name is bookwench (from which you can correctly infer that I'm a female) and I'm a humanist.

What this means is I see gendered language in the legal system and gender bias in every system as inherently evil, no matter which gender it's supposed to be protecting. The only place gender has in our legal system is in strict definitions of biology. I disagree with laws meant to isolate or divide our species into compartments of any kind. We are all humans and all laws should apply equally to all of us.

That's not to say I haven't experienced my share of frustration with your gender. Work: Denied a job based solely on gender? yep. Ass grabbed? check. Paid less than guys with less experience? uh-huh. Technical opinion dismissed until someone with body hair repeated it? Oh yes. Inappropriate comments about feminine hygiene products? From my manager, last week.

I've also experienced the opposite. Two total stranger guys helped me without expectation of reward, late at night when my car broke down while soccer moms in minivans drove right past. A guy returned my lost wallet containing debit cards, money, and pictures of my husband. A neighbor guy snowblowered my driveway out of kindness on a day when a foot and a half of snow dumped down. A gentleman in line at the grocery store told me stories of the small town we lived in that nearly brought me to tears.

So it looks to me like we're all people first before we're men and women. I wish - dunno if you'll agree with me here - I wish we could swap the gender of everyone in the whole world, for three years. Complete with physical strength changes, risk differentials, everything. Everyone gets to try it out as the other team, weather they like it or not. Call it an educational experience.

So thanks for listening. This is an interesting subreddit. I've been browsing around a bit today - there's a little bit of crazy in here (hell, this is the internet, if there wasn't any crazy I'd be worried), but most of you seem pretty smart and reasonable. I was kind of expecting a whole bunch of guys all complaining about them durty gurls spoiling everything, but you seem to have your heads on straight.

Nice ta meet ya!

blueyb · 2012-04-30T13:40:44+00:00

Great, another feminist telling us how to run our movement

themountaingoat · 2012-04-30T20:10:24+00:00

Generally if people come here with an open mind and with a willingness to learn they are not met with the hostility that people who come here and try to tell us what feminism is are.

Alanna · 2012-05-01T03:23:06+00:00

I've never seen this happen here, unless it was done either sarcastically, or by a troll.

Speaking of trolls, perhaps you should send a similar message to r/feminism regarding the words "MRA troll" and "misogynist"...

TheDWGM · 2012-04-30T11:37:59+00:00

Your talking about Women's Right Advocates. I'm fine with them. Here on Reddit a feminist is basically slang for an "independent women" cough man hater cough If they don't want that to happen to them they shouldn't associate with the majority that are just trolls.

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-04-30T18:30:31+00:00

The problem is, that Feminism is a word without a definition. I could put 400 feminists in a room, ask them what Feminism is, and get 400 different answers. And each one would be utterly convinced that "their version" of Feminism is the One True Feminism.

Therefore, I have to judge Feminism by what it does, not what it says. And what it DOES is:

Foster demonization of males and non-feminist females.
Promote deliberately anti-male, pro-female legislation.
Remove agency and adult accountability from females.
Provide an umbrella of protection for deeply bigoted man-haters.

If a Feminist wants to come here with an open mind, I am totally cool with that and I am polite. If they come here to lecture us about something, or claim NAFALT, (Not All Feminists Are Like That) then I am going to state some version of the above.

I don't think that is unreasonable.

kanuk876 · 2012-04-30T15:14:34+00:00

I don't care if self-identified feminists come here or not.

Why? Because I see /r/MensRights as a place where men can come to vent, share ideas, heal and eventually move on in life.

Men won't get their rights back by groveling to women, begging-bowl in hand, asking to be treated fairly. We tried that; the result was VAWA and pink-ribbon campaigns.

/r/MensRights is about men. Not women, not feminists, and most certainly not the preservation of fragile sensitivities. Men. It's about men here. Men. Get it? Men. Let me say it again: Men. Men.

Although I certainly appreciate cooperation from women in the MensRights movement, I no longer see it as necessary. This movement is about men forming an identity for themselves, an identity men can live with, an identity independent of women's expectations and perceived needs.

And your post is a distraction to this grand effort. So please fuck off.

2012-05-01T11:47:06+00:00

[permanently deleted]

VoiceoftheDarkSide · 2012-04-30T17:07:17+00:00

You realize that blurting out nonsense is the heart and soul of a subreddit where men claim to be trodden on and discriminated against in a systematic fashion?

Go to r/egalitarian if the bottom-scrapings of the society barrel annoy you.

Title	Just a thing I'd like to say about feminists coming to this subreddit and how they're received
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	28
Comments	89
Date	April 30, 2012 11:33 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/szloo/just_a_thing_id_like_to_say_about_feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-a-thing-id-like-to-say-about-feminists-coming.1022875 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022875

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