Does this subreddit really believe there are no male privileges and little to no sexism against women?

The_Patriarchy · 2012-03-12T11:18:52+00:00

Men and women both experience privileges and disadvantages, based on sex. Men and women both experience sexism.

These are controversial issues because most (actual) feminists assert that only men can be privileged, and that women can not be sexist against men:

No, what is commonly called “female privilege” is better described as benevolent sexism. Systems like the draft and chivalry often seem advantageous to women at first glance, but when examined more closely they in fact reinforce sexist institutions that keep both women and men from true equality. Also, it should be noted that, while men have what’s called male privilege that doesn’t mean that there must logically be a “female privilege” counterpart. This is because, although many strides towards equality have been made over the years, women as a class have not yet leveled the playing field, much less been put in a position of power and authority equivalent to that which grants institutional power to men as a class.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/

Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class (see male privilege), an important, but often overlooked, part of the term is that sexism is prejudice plus power. Thus feminists reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/sexism-definition/

vintermann · 2012-03-12T12:40:29+00:00

Male privilege, not just the feminist theory of; but whether men enjoy some privileges that women, as a group, do not.

They exist, but they are intimately tied up to things that aren't privileges at all - really, I prefer the word advantages to privileges.

Consider for instance, if men get further in the corporate hierarchy because we're better at appearing confident and playing up our strengths - this doesn't seem to unlikely.

But men aren't cocky and boastful because we like to be, but because society expects us to be. Since men are expected to take the initiative in romantic relationships, a man who can't project confidence is a lonely man. In primary school, a boy who can't project confidence is often a bullied boy. And lots of men fall through those cracks, but they become largely invisible to society.

nlakes · 2012-03-12T09:41:29+00:00

To the first: Yes, but the reverse is also true, that women have privileges that men do not.

To the second: Yes, but nowhere near to the degree that is made out in the media and in mainstream feminist sites.

Gareth321 · 2012-03-12T10:12:53+00:00

"Males" aren't a collective. We can't experience anything collectively. We are living, breathing, unique people, and you would do well to treat us as people and not as genitalia. So to answer both points: some men experience some privilege and disadvantage, and some women experience some privilege and disadvantage. There are millions and billions of unique privileges and disadvantages. They cannot be compared, and they cannot be added to some imaginary total. There is no objective way to say that all "men" experience a net greater privilege or disadvantage than women - under any criteria.

Il128 · 2012-03-12T15:54:28+00:00

Yes, there is male privilege.
Yes, women encounter sexism.

Haven't you bothered reading what gets posted here? Or do just the extremists get your attention?

2012-03-12T16:11:47+00:00

To answer your question:

Yes, we know men have some "privileges" (and I use this term loosely, because it should be advantages, not privileges) that women do not, but at the same time, women also have privileges men do not. Neither has it worse, and both deserve their problems solved.

To the second part: Yes we know sexism against women exists, but not to an extent that the mainstream media makes it out to be. But we also know that sexism against men exists too. Both suffer sexism, one form shouldn't be viewed "worse" than the other, like how society is completely fine with making all men in advertisements/movies/etc buffoons.

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-03-12T16:20:54+00:00

I think most people can be considered to have privileges that other people may not. I don't think there's anything special about men in this respect, and I think that rights are often mislabeled as privileges.

I think there is sexism against men and women, and I think a lot of things labelled as sexism against women are not.

Both privilege and sexism are often brought up disingenuously to shut down rational discourse.

theozoph · 2012-03-12T09:48:56+00:00

Most of what feminists call "male privilege" is, like most feminist issues, a complete misunderstanding of statistics. It can mainly be boiled down to the following: "Because a tiny minority of very rich men exist, all men are born with a silver spoon up their arse". An obvious logical fallacy to anyone except feminists.

nlakes · 2012-03-12T10:28:20+00:00

Based on reading the few replies so far, is it fair to say the average view of this subreddit is this:

Men and women each have a set of privileges and no one group experiences privilege to a greater extent than the other.

TheLotusEater · 2012-03-12T14:39:03+00:00

These days, at least in the popular media, I believe men are usually the targets of sexism. Watch television for 5 minutes and you'll agree.

dakru · 2012-03-12T19:33:04+00:00

The reason I read more stuff on r/mensrights and similar places than on feminist sites is because they deny women's problems and issues much less, from what I've seen, than feminists deny men's problems and issues.

Yeah, there are some people here who are so hostile to anything but the "women oppressing men" narrative, but the overwhelming narrative (and the one I agree with) seems to be "men have problems and issues too, and they're pretty comparable to women's problems and issues, at least enough to not be completely thrown under the bus and ignored as they are now!". While the majority of feminists seem to tow the line of nothing but "men oppressing women" and every once and a while "men oppressing men". None of what I think the reality is, a bunch of gendered issues and problems for men and women perpetuated by both men and women that are based a lot on tradition.

themountaingoat · 2012-03-12T17:47:32+00:00

At a certain point it isn't privilege any more. If we are arguing about the specifics of what peoples initial impressions are of people, or what sex has it better in terms of dealing with the other sexes sexuality I don't think it is really worth discussing. As long as people are people they are going to have opinions, and if the biggest thing you are worrying about is peoples opinions then you need to learn to deal with them.

iheartrms · 2012-03-12T20:21:57+00:00

There is sexism both ways and they both need to be eliminated. We can't allow double-standards going both ways in the hope that they cancel out.

Falkner09 · 2012-03-13T03:57:42+00:00

I'm aware there are male privileges; I'm also aware there are female privileges.

Sexism is a concept I am steadily moving away from believing exists towards anyone. In reality, I think it's a flawed concept that those who believe in only think exists because they can't see the whole picture from the point they've been painted into.

The reality is, society's gender constructs have been built over thousands of years to create a system that's designed to restrict everyone of both sexes into boxes.

take those who talk about how our historical religious and legal traditions were designed to restrict female sexuality. True, but they forget how it also restricted male sexuality; circumcision was designed to prevent masturbation and "licentiousness," and now exists to make men conform to each other. male and female homosexuals were oppressed, males often more harshly in fact, with some exceptions. And let's not forget, many "sodomy" laws banned fellatio, along with anal sex between anyone, and cunnilingus. and these were laws under the control of men.

and then there's the women's suffrage movement. sure, that was most oppressive toward women, but too many forget that women mostly tended to view the suffrage movement as radical and improper at it's beginning, and for a long time. and It was Phyllis Schlafly who got the ERA shut down. so this blame game between "feminists" and "men's rights" is totally missing the point.

Also I'm not really from this subreddit, I'm just passing through.

soyrobo · 2012-03-12T09:46:39+00:00

If male privilege exists I've never experienced it in my life. I've experienced privilege from not being a dick.

I'm not really sure what you mean by

the things women encounter above any other group.

Because that's huge & nebulous & I feel differently about different aspects of different "things". In regards to my stance on sexism against women, I find it as unsettling as sexism against men. It encourages division & promotes imbalance which are two things not in my favor.

rightsbot · 2012-03-12T09:40:17+00:00

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zyk0s · 2012-03-12T21:46:11+00:00

As with everything, the question "does X exist" depends entirely on your definition of X. With sexism, it's rather easy. As some have already pointed out, there's the objective definition of sexism, which is simply about treating individuals or groups differently depending on their sex. When you say "sexism against", you imply a negative connotation, which is necessary only if you adopt the feminist definition of sexism, that is one that is only possible from one group against another. But if you remove against, you are left with just sexism, i.e. different people being treated differently, and you can then say that yes, sexism does exist, and both men and women can get the short end of the stick.

Then you have the definition of privilege. Feminists have extended it way beyond its basic notion to anything that a woman has to experience that she doesn't like and where a man would not need to experience it. I hope you see the problem with this definition: it makes menstruation a mark of male privilege. So when they make a list of male privilege that includes "freedom" from being looked at as a sex object, "freedom" from not being taken care seriously, it is as silly as including the need to shave every morning. All the things that deal with societal perceptions and treatment should be put back into sexism.

A more logical definition of privilege would be the existence, in law (or enforced customs) of a difference in treatment based solely on a difference in sex. This idea ties in with what is called institutionalized sexism, and is basically equivalent. Now this was supposed to be a parallel to institutionalized racism, but it's a fallacious symmetry because there exist no physical or mental faculties that are impossible to decouple from race. Race might prove to be statistically linked with some traits, but one does not logically guarantee the other the way being able to become pregnant (at least at this point in history) is a clear attribute of only the female sex. Why is this important? Simply because in western societies, there exists very few laws that treats men and women differently based on the sole attribute of sex. The only one I can think of right now is the selective service requirement for men, and this law, no matter how much feminists try to flip it around, puts men at a disadvantage with respect to women.

That is about all that can be said about written law, but the systems based on the british tradition often operate with common law, where precedents are used as a basis for judgement. That's where it gets tricky, because you need to look at statistics, and these cases contain enough variables so that it's very difficult to isolate the factor of sex. In common law, the preference to give custody to the mother instead of the father is well documented and widely accepted, other phenomena, like differences in sentencing, are harder to analyze. What's important is that there isn't any known case of common law being skewed in favor of males. There's this idea called "feminist jurisprudence" that tries to "rectify" the supposed bias against women in law. The fact that its proponents have to resort to convoluted logic calling laws like the maternity leave sexist because it isn't long enough to their liking is enough of an indicator that they weren't able to find any real, discernable male common law privilege.

In conclusion, and in tl;dr: if you are using objective, apolitical definitions of sexism and privilege, there exists sexism against women (and neither it, nor sexism against men can truly be eliminated) but there is no instance of male privilege in North America and, to my knowledge, the European Union.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-03-12T13:11:34+00:00

I don't believe in self sustaining arbitrary social constructs that have a meaningful impact on individuals without their free consent. Do you really believe that it is our responsibility to argue that they don't exist rather than your responsibility to argue that they do?

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-03-12T13:11:58+00:00

This thread should be in that meta-mensrights pit.

Title	Does this subreddit really believe there are no male privileges and little to no sexism against women?
Author	nlakes
Upvotes	5
Comments	57
Date	March 12, 2012 9:39 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qsq2x/does_this_subreddit_really_believe_there_are_no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/does-this-subreddit-really-believe-there-are-no.1026111 https://theredarchive.com/post/1026111

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