Another Feminist Straw-man

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I do occasionally use too much sarcasm, or a bit of light trolling so I've been on it a few times - and some SRS bot that's posting around thinks I'm one of their "team"... it's all quite strange.

I was bullied at school, so the sensitive nature of some language became quite muted. My mom would always say "Sticks and stones..." and tell me to brush it off, or bully them back. Fairly bad advice.

But I grew a thick skin (arguably I can't 'get' compliments though) and it led to my emotional response of what is said online being very little... my thick skin got me mostly used to taunts and such face-to-face with some rather intimidating people.
Online taunts are just silly - everyone's so anonymous, the taunt carries such little weight.

But for me, it's like winding up a clockwork monkey - just a tiny effort results in a lot of pantomime and entertainment. So I'll occasionally say something a bit offensive or disgusting, and - result - a quite entertaining "Gasp!" from several SRS members.

Either they pretend to have a thin skin, or they've been some veeeeeeery sheltered kids.

Another metaphor - it's like cold water swimming - if you see someone shriek when they stick their pinky in the water while you're swimming around, you'll find it quite hard not to tease, and throw water at them. =)

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This comment sums up gender-Feminism's shell-game rather nicely:

Feminism started as a movement for white middle class women to obtain suffrage, and continues to shut out WOC, transgendered, and others that do not have societal privilege. Don't expect somebody, whose voice you have been denying, to embrace a movement that was made for you and serves predominantly you.

Most gender Feminists know that the game is superior rights for women, yet behind the cry of equality they hope to recuit others to fight for their superiority.

When that doesn't work, they resort to ad-hominems like; "You're a man with lots of privilege, you cannot possible understand". Since you will always be a man, you therefore can never understand and must remain a serf to women who will tell you what to think about "women's issues".

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Sorry to be "that guy", but it's "serf"

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I mean, that's a pretty fucking bold claim to make when reproductive rights (you know, that issue that basically started the second wave) are being rolled back in state after state

I keep hearing feminists say this, but none can actually point to more than one, maybe two measures actually passing the legislature, getting signed into law, or voted into law as a ballot initiative, and not getting struck down by the courts. For instance, one pointed to the various personhood amendments recently on various ballots. Not a single one passed, and they were opposed by a lot of pro-life people as well as pro-choice.

A better example is VAWA, which I heard was just reauthorized for 2012. Sweeping bipartisan legislation which promotes misandrist policies and excludes and denies 50% of IPV victims and 40% of rape victims on grounds of gender alone. A real win for equality. /s

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which one would call patriarchy if they believe the overall balance of power in that system leans towards men- which, given the proportional representation of men in positions of authority, would not be entirely unjustified

And what about the proportional representation of men at the bottom of society? 90% of workplace deaths are male. Men commit suicide at 3 times the rate of women. Men are 90% of the prison population in the US and 2/3rds of the homeless.

That's why NOW, for example, opposes male-only drafts and male-only conscription (and has done so for decades).

Citation? I don't doubt they, in theory, do oppose this, but I don't see a lot of action on it. Now, fathers' rights? Every time there's a shared custody bill up for a vote, there's NOW with an action alert, demonizing divorced fathers as molesters, abusers, and all-around violent, unfit parents.

Links:

NOW Foundation Opposes Phony Parental Alienation Disorder - Regardless of whether you think PAD is a real thing or not, this page would leave you thinking that women never say horrible untrue things about their exes to their kids (with or without the intention of alienating them) and that only abusive dads/partners would bring up these nasty lies in custody hearings. Note the effort to discredit fathers' rights groups (like Glenn Sacks's Fathers & Families) as "populated" with "batterers, child abusers, and pedophiles," that they offer no scientific evidence that it's not a real disorder (though they claim it is "scientifically discredited"), and they imply that all men going through a divorce or breakup are in imminent danger of killing their kids or exes.

The Crisis in Family Law Courts - All about how women face discrimination in family courts because men who do abuse will (surprise, surprise) continue to attempt to abuse through the court system. However, the implication is that any man who seeks custody of his children must only be doing so to abuse them or, at the very least, abuse his ex by depriving her of her kids.

Custody Preparation for Moms - Not actually on the NOW website, but linked by the NOW Foundation as a good resource for mothers in custody battles. Note the assumed primacy and supremacy of motherhood over fatherhood, and the demonization of fathers as abusers and all around terrible people.

[–]CrawdaddyJoe 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You can look up NOW's position on conscription and combat duties under the military section on their website. They haven't been fighting it because, newsflash, we haven't had a draft in decades, so it's kind of on the back-burner while they continue to do things like, you know, fight for reproductive rights, equal pay, fewer glass ceilings, and less sexual assault.

As for men at the bottom of society- eh, that's debatable, as 70% of the world's poor are women. Here in the US (insofar as anyone in the US can be considered to be at the bottom of a globalized society), the statistics are a bit more even, but still disfavor women.

http://www.endpoverty2015.org/goals/gender-equity

As for NOW and fathers- well, clearly, that's problematic, though I don't really know a lot about parental custody laws. But, if you think about it, the attitudes towards fatherhood, and towards men as violent, and women as nurturing, are the same sexist crap, coming from the same system of harmful gender binaries, that feminism tries to fight- NOW, apparently, fails on that, regarding this issue.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As for men at the bottom of society- eh, that's debatable, as 70% of the world's poor are women.

NOW is an American organization which focuses the majority of its time, money, and efforts on American legislation and policy.

Here in the US (insofar as anyone in the US can be considered to be at the bottom of a globalized society), the statistics are a bit more even, but still disfavor women.

How so? Did you miss the part where 90% of the prison population and 2/3rds of the homeless are male?

http://www.endpoverty2015.org/goals/gender-equity

From that link:

Eliminate gender disparity in primary and secondary education, preferably by 2005, and in all levels of education no later than 2015.

Well, hallelujah, female graduates of high school AND college both outnumber men in the US.

NOW, apparently, fails on that, regarding this issue.

I'm frankly floored you admit that, the last three people I showed these links to all tried to make all kinds of excuses for NOW justifying such shoddy treatment of fathers. I agree that it should be a feminist goal, and that it would be a feminist goal if feminist actions were more in line with their stated overarching goals. But that's the whole point. This is just the best example. There's a whole history of Western feminism consistently distorting and denying rape and DV statistics to protect women perpetrators and minimize male victims. MRAs don't want to deny female victims-- we just want to see male victims get some recognition.

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Okay, for anyone else reading this, the "apex fallacy" is not actually an official fallacy, as far as I can tell. I have only ever seen it used by MRAs, and only as an argument against patriarchy theory. In a nutshell, the apex fallacy says that you cannot just look at the male presidents and legislators and CEOs in a vacuum and assume that all men are in charge/privileged, but you must also look at the bottom, where men make up the majority of the homeless, the suicidal, the sick, deaths in war, etc.

To be honest, I think this argument makes more sense in some contexts than others. For instance, it's not invalid to ask why only 17% of Congress is women (when women obviously make up a much greater percentage of the general population). It is invalid to automatically assume that this discrepancy is the result of current societal oppression of women. However, it is valid to point it out to refute the idea that men, as a class, are privileged in comparison to women as a class. The homeless guy who begged me to buy him beer at the 7-11 last night clearly has less privilege than me, a middle classish woman.

I took some philosophy and some logic years ago, but I honestly can't speak to how valid it is to call this an actual logical fallacy. As I said, I don't see it mentioned anywhere except MR sites, ever, so there's no dissections or proofs on any college sites or other places where you can generally find reference for other logical fallacies. This doesn't make it invalid, but it does call it into question.

However, assuming it is a valid fallacy, the MRAs who use it are applying it to a group defined by biological characteristics-- men. You are born a man, and you can't change it. You are applying to a group with no clear definition. Some define it by anyone who self-identifies as a feminist. Others define it as those who follow the feminism ideology. In any case, though, an ideology is a voluntary belief system. One chooses to a feminist, and one can stop being a feminist anytime one wants to. Therefore, if you were to disagree with what feminism espouses, or what actions are being taken in feminism's name, you can stop calling yourself a feminist. If you choose to continue calling yourself a feminist, you are at least tacitly condoning the actions and beliefs of the major feminist groups, thinkers, and speakers.

So, in conclusion, that is why PartTimeBadman didn't "successfully" rebutt anything.

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[–]JockeVXO 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Feminists are women who believe they are superior to men and that men should be punished for simply being male.

This is demonstrably false in every facet.

I know you're right about this, even if the rest of r/mensrights doesn't, friend.

I would hope this isn't the dominant discourse on MensRights.

Unfortunately, it pretty much is. I've said it a fair few times before, but r/mensrights is r/letsshakeourfistatwomentogether really. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.

That's how. You turned a "discussion" on feminists into a "discussion" on women, without no-one mentioning women (without adding the epithet of feminist). In other words, you changed your assertion that the majority of MR thinks feminists think women are superior to men to MR bemoans women, as if they were the same. This can mean two things:

You conflated women with feminists

or

You changed the subject, presumably to something you found closely related

Either one or the other, and they both imply the same thing.

[–]DoctorStorm 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]JockeVXO 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I am looking at the comments, and nowhere did you disavow the viewpoint you expressed. Unless there's some sort of "lag" on reddit, you have not made any comments after the one I commented on.

I then replied by saying that r/mensrights is more about whining about the bad things that women do than discussing the rights of men.

You brought that up, all by yourself when discussing the dislike for feminism. You want to keep proving my point?

He brought up whether or not this is the standard on r/mensrights and I commented on it.

No, he did not. He brought up that he hoped that dominant discourse on MR wasn't about feminists thinking women were superior to men. He did not bring up women, you did.

I projected? I called you out for conflating women with feminists, as it is one of my pet peeves. Louise Brealey did it and you did it.

[–]PartTimeBadman1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am looking at the comments, and nowhere did you disavow the viewpoint you expressed. Unless there's some sort of "lag" on reddit, you have not made any comments after the one I commented on.

You didn't look very hard, then. My post was immediately beneath this comment tree at the time when you posted your first comment, and has not moved since.

You brought that up, all by yourself when discussing the dislike for feminism. You want to keep proving my point?

Dingofthesouth posted

I would hope this isn't the dominant discourse on MensRights.

I responded by saying that whining about women in fact was the dominant discourse on r/mensrights. I'm not sure what's controversial about me making a statement regarding the dominant discourse of r/mensrights in response to someone else's statement about r/mensrights.

No, he did not. He brought up that he hoped that dominant discourse on MR wasn't about feminists thinking women were superior to men. He did not bring up women, you did.

Let's just timeline this one out:

lurker_becomes_lurkd makes the controversial statement:

Feminists are women who believe they are superior to men

Glarfugus disagrees, saying:

This is demonstrably false in every facet.

PartTimeBadman agrees with Glarfugus and condemns the downvotes that Glarfugus' statement received, saying:

I know you're right about this, even if the rest of r/mensrights doesn't, friend.

Dingofthesouth responds to PartTimeBadman, saying:

I would hope this isn't the dominant discourse on MensRights.

PartTimeBadman observes that the majority of discussion on r/mensrights is whining about women, saying:

Unfortunately, it pretty much is. I've said it a fair few times before, but r/mensrights is r/letsshakeourfistatwomentogether really.

JockeVXO (that's you!) takes offence to this and incorrectly extrapolates that:

Gosh darnit, so according to you, me being antifeminist means that I am anti-woman?

Despite there being no statement or intonation that being anti-feminist is equal to misogyny. Therefore, JockeVXO (that's you!) must be projecting his own insecurity about his beliefs, fooling himself he is being victimised when really, no such victimisation exists. JockeVXO (you) has a chip on his shoulder about being anti-feminist and active searches for situations in which he can feel persecuted, eventually conjuring them from nowhere when he can't find anyone who would legitimately persecute him for them.

He made a statement about the posting habits of r/mensrights, I made a statement about the posting habits of r/mensrights. I'm really not sure why that confuses or upsets you, but it's generally how message-boards work. People raise issues, people respond to those issues.

[–]JockeVXO2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As for the comment, my bad. It is indeed there, I wrongly assumed that you mean as a response to either me or Dingofthesouth (as in further down the comment tree).

But, you still don't "disprove" my point. PartTimeBadman (that's you!) said:

Unfortunately, it pretty much is. I've said it a fair few times before, but r/mensrights is r/letsshakeourfistatwomentogether really. [emphasis mine]

as a response to Dingofthesouth's comment regarding the dislike for and (perhaps) unfair generalisation of feminists. PartTimeBadman (you) correlated a dislike for feminists with bemoaning women. The bit in italics obviously refers to the discourse on feminism, which you then change to a discourse on women in the following sentence (the bold bit).

Now, I'm ok with you saying that MR collectively bemoans women as our main activity (if that is your opinion), it's the conflation between women and feminists that I disapprove of.

Your projections and ad-hominems have been noticed.

[–]PartTimeBadman0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]JockeVXO2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As I said, I am fine with you thinking that, I just ignore the posts I don't think matter as much, although I definitely see why they belong here (exposing misandry is a valid topic on here, even though my main focus is legal equality).

But that is not what you did, as I've already explained. You changed the matter at hand (feminists being x and y) to a different subject (women), within the same two-sentence-comment without making a distinction between the two subjects. If you meant the second sentence to be separate from the first sentence, you should have made some sort of a distinction.

Unfortunately, it pretty much is. On a different note, I've said it a fair few times before, but r/mensrights is r/letsshakeourfistatwomentogether really. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.

This would have, for instance, sufficed. But you did not, your second sentence was clearly intertwined with your first comment and no distinction was made, i.e. you referenced a discourse on feminists as a discourse on women.

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If you're referring to our discussion on paternal surrender, I don't really see the point in continuing, since you were reduced at the end to repeating yourself ad nauseum that you admitted the system is broken but didn't feel "breaking it further" is a good solution. I disagree that it would break it further, but unless it ever gets implemented, it remains a difference of opinion. The more you post, though, the more inclined I to agree with others in here and label you a concern troll. Your account is four months old, but you came out of nowhere to start posting about two weeks ago, and most of what you post here is critical-- not even critical of the issues, but critical of the whole sub.

I suggest you diaper-up now because I have no intention of stopping disagreeing with people because people like you get pissy when it happens.

Nope, no need, I'll simply ignore you.

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That's merely a definition of what it started as. Now it is a pack of rabid animals who vehemently hate men and want to punish them for being men.

Well, I disagree. I know several feminists who aren't rabid animals who vehemently hate men- I used to date one, in fact- and I'm legitimately sorry that you interpret reality in such a twisted and maligned way.

A simple dictionary definition doesn't encompass everything a group is.

But apparently, a biased man's definition ~~can~~ does. (Edit: fixing grammar.) Good to know.

Mensrights isn't only men. It is also intelligent women who seek equality for the sexes. Feminism involves men too (ironically) but they're generally whipped dogs who have been manipulated by women to support the selfish goals of feminism.

Feminism isn't only women. It is also intelligent men who seek equality for the sexes. Men's rights involves women too (ironically) but they're generally whipped dogs who have been manipulated by men to support the selfish goals of men's rights activism.

The more you make all-encompassing, inaccurate statements, the more I will continue to simply invert them to great effect, so it might be worth trying another tactic.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PartTimeBadman-1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminism is an oppressive group of women who see one sex as the superior and the other sex as inferior. Mensrights is fighting that mentality by showing that both sexes are equal. Feminism isn't about equality. It might have been for a short while at first but then it became twisted into a horrible movement that seeks to oppress men.

Men's rights is an oppressive group of men who see one sex as the superior and the other sex as inferior. Feminism is fighting that mentality by showing that both sexes are equal. Men's rights isn't about equality. It might have been for a short while at first but then it became twisted into a horrible movement that seeks to oppress women.

You are making inaccurate and all-encompassing statements as though they are indisputable fact. Your own personal opinion on feminism is not the world's opinion on feminism. If you are getting frustrated by my inversion of your claims about feminism, then you are getting frustrated with the taste of your own medicine. You are not the only one who can make subjective statements as though they are indisputable statements of fact.

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Title	Another Feminist Straw-man
Author	nlakes
Upvotes	260
Comments	246
Date	April 29, 2012 5:33 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/sxudg/another_feminist_strawman/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/another-feminist-straw-man.1022959 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022959

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