I went out to dinner and this sign was at the restaurant in the center of the fireplace mantle. Then I googled it and didnt realize how ubiquitous it already was.

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[–]alanpugh 14 points15 points16 points 15 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Gentlemen prefer blondes and blondes have more fun.

I say that because I joined up here on MensRights for the real issues: Custodial rights, child support double standards, the expectations of men to always do the "dirty work" or "heavy lifting" because they're men, and what I've seen since I've joined this subreddit is a lot of people who seem to be searching for sexism wherever they can find it.

I haven't "got a feel for the place" enough just yet to know whether I'll be downvoted into obscurity or engaged intelligently, but I'm not a troll. I see the real plights we face and I think a father should be able to take his kid to the park, or wait in line for treadmills, without being attacked or discriminated against and that's why I'm here.

However, when the guy in Chicago was trying to break into his own house and said the cops arrested him "because he was black," ignoring the fact that he was trying to break into a house, or when a woman sues Hooters because their business model is to hire physically attractive waitresses and she didn't qualify, or when a man sees a sign that is meant to be a humorous take on the perceived greed of certain types of women and they find it as a malicious attack on the entire male gender, I think we're getting too far away from the real problems.

I think it drives some away from the movement and I wonder if you could make a stronger case in custody and child support matters if the MRM didn't concern itself with petty jokes, much the same way that sexual harassment laws for females became a joke when every woman was trained to start searching for ANY eye contact as unwelcome.

For what it's worth, I support the legalization of marijuana. Instead of fighting for that, I fight for the legalization of medical marijuana. Baby steps work much better than an all or nothing approach... perhaps that applies to the MRM and other equality movements.

I don't know, this is just a ramble anyway. Hope it at least amuses someone.

[–]1337geekchic 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I totally agree with you. There was pretty much a mirror image of this post on 2XC, asking how offended the community was about this T shirt. As you can clearly see form the comments, most were not offended and saw it for what it was, a joke. While it is true 2XC isn't the same as r/MR because that subreddit isn't there to support a cause, but to appeal to a demographic that shares a gender experience (the mirror for 2XC would be OneY I believe). But it is things like this that distract from real issues and only fuel resentment.

I post to 2XC very often, and I also read r/MR (but rarely comment). I am very interested in Men's rights. I want the men in my life to be treated equally in areas where they are not. I don't believe the two genders are adversarial, that everyone can enjoy equality without "taking something away" from either side. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

[–]alanpugh 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]1337geekchic 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd say the posts about both kinds of Tshirts were very similar. I doubt most people are buying these shirts as jokes, obviously meant to be harmless. If these jokes are so popular, they become mass produced rather than custom made. In any case, even ignorant people have the right to wear whatever ignorant statement shirts as they please. Who are you to police their wardrobe choices/labels they insinuate themselves?

If you ask me, I'd say both shirts if taken seriously are less harmful to men and more harmful to women. The stereo types (for both shirts) are referencing the possibility the wearer is a nothing gold digger. If I were to say/wear a shirt that like "men are only as good as what they can give me and I am no more to them than a prized possession rather than a human being" That would be like combining both shirts into one. These statements are more sexist toward women (and female oriented stereotypes) than men. If you're offended by a Tshirt that you think deprecates a man more than a woman simply because the word "men" is involved, you should re-read the shirt. It makes a woman look bad, not a man.

[–]guysmiley00 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]1337geekchic 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

As alanpugh has said, this does distract from real issues rather than a few tasteless Tshirts/signs.

We're not talking about a shirt - we're talking about a sign posted prominently in the dining room of a restaurant.

There's not a huge difference between the two. If someone worked in the place and wore a shirt with those words on it everyday, the effect would still be the same, no?

and shows a mindset that only values the pain of women

No, I would feel empathy for a man or a woman deeply offended by these words. Yes, a woman too could be upset that the value system displayed by the shirt/sign is offensive.

Does a black man saying "nigger" get the same reaction as a white one?

Depends on the context. If either used the word as a duragutory term, I'd be offended by both. If a black man is using it as a term of endearment for a close friend (black or white, man or woman) then I think it is fine. I have a gay male friend that when he jokes around with me he'll call me "fag hag" and I'll call him "fag" right back. But we have a relationship where those words aren't offensive or taboo.

If a man wore a shirt saying "Women belong in the kitchen", would you say that such a gesture was more demeaning to men than women?

In this case a man, not every man, but just this one, unless it is a joke, which it most likely is. would you call reddit misogynistic for the ubiquitous phrases like "tits or GTFO" or "make me a sammich"?

Does a rally by the KKK deserve more sympathy for whites than blacks?

I don't see the relevance so more clarification is needed. We have the right to peaceful assembly in the US, and as long as they don't hurt anyone or incite others to harm others, the KKK has every right to preach their (I feel) ignorant beliefs. I really don't see their being sympathy for their cause other than the members themselves, which are by default, white. I doubt there's a "black auxiliary" for the KKK nor would I imagine for any persons of any color.

Should Al Sharpton be apologizing to white Americans because slavery damaged their reputation so badly?

I think there are some out there with "white guilt" but as a person who is first generation American, I never quite thought about it because slavery in the US happened well before my family got here. Al Sharpton defends his beliefs and preach them as much as the KKK gets the same right to so. I don't think anyone need to apologize for slavery (except the countries still practicing it) because it wasn't the responsibility of the people born after its abolition.

And your argument that both messages are more harmful to women is ludicrous

That's how I Honestly feel. I really think the men,chocolate,coffee reference may perpetuate that a man's worth is put on the level as food and beverage, but it reinforces negative cultural stereotypes about women.

*Women are gold diggers

*All women love chocolate

As for the trophy wife thing, again can be offensive to both men and women. It is negative toward men in the assumption men only prize beautiful women as marriage material. And negative toward women because it implies that women just want to be taken care of financially and they're willing to be nothing but objects.

I cannot begin to tell you the rage I feel at beer commercial and portable television advertisements that emasculate men, and insinuating that being in any way like a woman makes you less of a man. Or men being henpecked by their wives, or not cool enough unless he has the right car.

TL;DR Both these phrases may hurt people's feelings, but they make everyone who embraces these feelings the ones that look bad. US culture makes sexist jokes mainstream humor. So many see the humor in it (on the side of both genders) thus causes these themes to be mass produced.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you have a very good point, and I hope many around here take your advice. Frankly, I just don't see the relevance of a bunch of this stuff, which seems to me (a guy who's been doing this for 17 years) to be little more than hunting around for something to be pissed off about.

This could, however, be a result of the lack of ANY movement at all on the main issues. Continuously saying the same thing, over and over, gets real boring...no matter how many ways you word it.

I also think there's a goodly number of people who show up here and engage in a bit of subterfuge, posting fake "outrages" then trying to egg on newbies in the hopes of making them look like morons.

And it works far too often for my comfort.

But it's a young movement, and a lot of people here still haven't got a real grasp yet of what dynamics are at play, and the best responses to give. And this includes the people who come here declaring calm, reasoned responses are "correct".

The Mens Movement didn't get here overnight, and to many newbies (less than 5 years in) it seems there is zero progress being made, so their frustration kicks in to a cycle of outrage. They will eventually learn patience, but they will also be replaced in the "outrage" camp by new members - with any luck.

So this is likely to be a feature of the MRM. It's just up to the seasoned and reasoned to write and produce content to help guide some of this anger to productive ends...

[–]alanpugh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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The idea shouldn't offend you either.

Huh, I already said it didnt offend me, and there is only one of me here so thats confusing.

It's an inequality in thinking, which we all practice.

Nope, speak for yourself.

If the laws were fair, these little sidemarks and jokes are nothing but helpful indicators for us men. After all, it is good to know if the woman in your life thinks that joke is true.

No one is saying to make the signs illegal. If you care to engage your brain, re-read my last comment to see what I mean. Aw, ill just re-paste it here to make it easier for you:

it's the idea that women can get away with putting up such a thing to advertise their shoppe while poking fun at women on an ad would never be tolerated.

As soon as I start seeing "no fat chicks" signs and sexy female calendars hanging in restaurants, then I wont care.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

It all ties together, pal.

The fact is that misandry is so predominant in our society that people don't even recognize it. We get used to it.

It is important to recognize the rampant misandry in our society. It is so pervasive, however, that we are subjected to it every damn day whether we like it or not. And to ignore misandry is foolish.

It would be quite silly to focus only on father's issues in a men's rights forum when there are so many other injustices perpetuated by misandrists.

If we don't highlight this misandry, all we will end up with will be a few short-lived father's rights successes, because we will not have cut the head off the snake that is feminism.

It's true that Reddit/MR is not the best place to learn about men's rights issues. To understand why things are the way they are I'd suggest reading The Misandry Bubble and old the-spearhead.com articles by Zed and other, well, I guess you could call them philosophers.

In fact, here's The Book of Zed: http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/book_of_zed_the_zen_priest.pdf

It's a compilation of Zed's articles. I haven't read it, but Zed's insights have never ceased to amaze me.

[–]alanpugh 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Do you consider a (rather tame) joke as an "injustice perpetuated by a misandrist?" Do you feel that every joke that pokes fun at any stereotype or gender/race/religion role should be eliminated, or just the ones that you feel personally offended by? Where is the line?

I guess my question to you would be: Do you feel the world would be better, worse, or the same if we eliminated every single joke that pertains to the perceived stereotypes of a particular group? I'm not sure if I'm unintentionally oppressing my gender by feeling this way, but I don't want all humor drained from the world as a result of the actions we take. Too much has already been lost.

Another thought (again, just trying to get educated as much as possible here on the nuances) is that you refer to feminism, in a blanket statement, as a snake which needs its head cut off. Are feminists looking to close the pay gap threatening men's rights, or was your statement unintentionally broad?

I've reposted several articles linked here within my social sphere and I'm on board with the more reasonable things I've seen here (which is most of it), but I see this is a struggle for equality in enforcement of the law, career, financial and relationship aspects of life... not an aim to eliminate humor or cast all women's rights advocates under the bus as being anti-men.

I could see MRM and WRM join together to end the pay gap while also giving both parents paid maternal/paternal leave when a child is born... That's a worthwhile set of causes that people can come together for. Or am I just naive?

[–]guysmiley00 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]alanpugh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Jokes are fine.

When jokes bring to light the misandric double-standards society accepts, it's also fine to point them out.

The fact is that misandric jokes are enjoyed by most people while misogynistic jokes are scorned by most people.

The double standard is highlighted even more when you consider the fact that most men face more genuine discrimination in a given day than women will in a year. (Hyperbole, probably. But it's not far off.)

You had a comment on feminism. My response is simple. Feminism is about privileges for women at the expense of women. I'm not sure what your question was.

Lastly, there is no pay gap unless you mean the one that is caused entirely by women's own choices. Equality of opportunity is the best we can ever hope to strive for. Equality of outcome is just a way of saying it's okay to discriminate against one group to ensure another group has the same outcome. It's bullshit.

I could see MRM and WRM join together to end the pay gap while also giving both parents paid maternal/paternal leave when a child is born... That's a worthwhile set of causes that people can come together for. Or am I just naive?

Sadly, yes, you are naive. Human beings are not egalitarians. We tend to care mostly about ourselves.

Regardless, if you compare the issues women in western society face with the issues men face, you will see a great disparity. Misandry is so pervasive in our society it is nigh unbelievable.

http://www.singularity2050.com/the-misandry-bubble/

[–]alanpugh 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I have a lot of reading to do and I thank you and others for the links. In the meantime, one last question...

You say "The fact is that misandric jokes are enjoyed by most people while misogynistic jokes are scorned by most people," yet I've heard more "blonde jokes" than any other type of pervasive stereotype joke. I've never seen genuine scorn or anger for these types of jokes in my personal experience. Do you feel that blonde jokes are inappropriate or misogynistic, and do you feel that blonde women would be justified in moving against them as an unfair stereotype?

For what it's worth, I get what you're saying about egalitarianism. My parents rued the day that I came home with a copy of the Communist Manifesto and they proceeded to tell me all about how you should worry about yourself first. I didn't fully understand self-interest trumping the greater good then and I don't now, but at least these days I know that it's our reality.

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The "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" was actually treating violence against one gender as if it was hilarious, I believe that's a whole different level.

The "no fat chicks" and "men/choclate/coffee" thing are way more harmless in my opinion, they're just celebrating superficiality and stupidity. I'm fine with it as long as people aren't hypocrites about it, meaning if you think the "men/coffee/choclate" thing is a harmless joke, you don't get to rage about how the "no fat chicks" thing is offensive and vice versa.

And yes, I do consider the "chicks rule" calenders to be in quite poor taste, but it doesn't promote violence - there are lots of things out there that are in poor taste, I just decide not to waste my time on people who actually go out and buy that crap.

There will always be things that will offend people, where do you draw the line when it comes to banning free speech? I draw mine at promoting and trivializing violence.

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