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Swedish doctors refuse to circumcise boys

RuffBrute

July 25, 2009

56 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Swedish doctors refuse to circumcise boys
Author	RuffBrute
Upvotes	56
Comments	56
Date	July 25, 2009 10:19 PM UTC (17 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/94ka7/swedish_doctors_refuse_to_circumcise_boys/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/swedish-doctors-refuse-to-circumcise-boys.1053473 https://theredarchive.com/post/1053473

Comments

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 17 years ago* (45 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 17 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

Sigh. Lack of education makes people say pretty ridiculous things.

And here, from the Female Genital Cutting Education and Networking Project, a list of "Similarities in Attitudes and Misconceptions toward Infant Male Circumcision in North America and Ritual Female Genital Mutilation in Africa".

Let that get you started on the path to enlightenment.

And look at how the web is a beautiful thing: people go on and on about how the anonymity of the web lets people be complete jerks, but you and me being miles apart, having this contact online, is the only thing forcing me to be civil instead of just punching you square in the face. Because that's really how I feel right now, and probably what I would do, if someone directed those words at me in real life from the top of their phony high horse.

[+]linkedlist -16 points-15 points-14 points 17 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Gareth3213 points 17 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Female circumcision does so considerably.

Alright, so your argument is that the female circumcision reduces sensation more than the male circumcision? Quantify that. How much or how little pleasure would you deem an acceptable loss? The logical conclusion is that one cannot quantify pleasure, and so therefore cannot compare one "larger" pleasure to another "lesser" pleasure. Pleasure is pleasure. A reduction is a reduction. Surgery is surgery. Danger is danger. These terms are finite, anything else is conjecture. You either condemn those that seek to reduce pleasure in their offspring, and cut them for no reason, or you don't. You can't arbitrarily draw the line as you see fit or you become an illogical hypocrite.

You mention there are pros to circumcision. Other than the obvious religious implications, what are the pros? I do expect credible citations.

[–]linkedlist-2 points 17 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Alright, so your argument is that the female circumcision reduces sensation more than the male circumcision?

My argument is that female circumcision is unnecessary and cruel while male circumcision has its reasons and is completely justifiable.

The whole notion there is a loss in pleasure is itself questionable, the reality there are many women who prefer circumcised penis's adds more credit to the opposite argument: that there is no loss in pleasure but rather a gain in pleasure. Furthermore, men who are not circumcised often feel discomfort as it directly pertains to the excess foreskin, therefore, again, there is a positive reason to remove it.

The reasons to remove foreskin are entirely justifiable and quantifiable not to mention understandable, people who choose not to circumcise their boys are the ones who should try and justify the reason why - while they're at it maybe they can explain why the umbilical cord had to be removed. You'll attempt to make many arguments to explain why circumcision should be banned or is brutal yet you yourself will admit the pain non-circumcised penis' will cause, such is its danger there is the very real possibility it will tear during intercourse leading to extreme amounts of pain and even a considerably higher chance of infection - yet more reasons for circumcision. Statistically speaking in Africa men who are circumcised are less likely to get aids, yet another positive for circumcision, statistically speaking men who are circumcised have a much lower chance of suffering from some illness or medical condition relating to their circumcision however men who are not circumcised are more than likely to experience major discomfort and medical complications throughout their lives all for a theoretical gain in pleasure which for all intents and purposes if it even existed would be negligible and more than countered by the amount of pain it would cause.

The simple reality women regardless of geological location tend to prefer circumcised men is a very good indication that circumcision is not an artificial reality imposed on boys but rather a reality that has occurred due to natural selection.

Nice try at ignoring 99% of my argument and creating a strawman there.

[–]Gareth3211 point 17 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My argument is that female circumcision is unnecessary and cruel while male circumcision has its reasons and is completely justifiable.

I already reduced this. You just ignored the rationale behind it to restate your flawed premise. I took this quote of yours: "Female circumcision does so considerably" (which I hope you haven't rescinded on), and showed you how you're equating one pleasure with another; then how this is a flawed argument. Never-the-less, I'll discuss your points again. I'm going to number the points so you can easily reply to sections directly related to the material.

the reality there are many women who prefer circumcised penis's adds more credit to the opposite argument: that there is no loss in pleasure but rather a gain in pleasure.

I'm very clear in that the loss of pleasure, as pertaining to the argument of whether to circumcise a child, applies to the individual, and not the individual's possible sexual partners. A male that [questionably] may give more pleasure to a female partner should never be included in a reason to circumcise him.

men who are not circumcised often feel discomfort as it directly pertains to the excess foreskin, therefore, again, there is a positive reason to remove it.

I was also very clear on requiring credible sources. I have never heard of a normal foreskin causing discomfort - rather just the opposite. But if you're sure of your point, I'd like some research. Throwing out incredulous claims like this cannot be encouraged. I'm calling you out, and you'd better come to the table. 1

yet you yourself will admit the pain non-circumcised penis' will cause

Where did I admit this? 2

the very real possibility it will tear during intercourse leading to extreme amounts of pain and even a considerably higher chance of infection.

Again, I was very clear, I want credible sources. If you're going to make claims, you need to back them up. 3

Statistically speaking in Africa men who are circumcised are less likely to get aids.

Citation required. I'm getting disappointed. You know you're making wild claims. 4

men who are circumcised have a much lower chance of suffering from some illness or medical condition relating to their circumcision however men who are not circumcised are more than likely to experience major discomfort and medical complications.

Lol. Now you're skating on troll territory. You just made the claim that circumcision reduces risk of some [any] illness or disorder. You'd better back this up with citations. 5

The simple reality women regardless of geological location tend to prefer circumcised men

Citation needed. 6

Nice try at ignoring 99% of my argument and creating a strawman there.

Lol.

Now we get to see if you can back up your claims. Remember, if you're going to respond, respond to my points [or don't bother].

[–]etherspirit0 points 17 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]midnightorphan 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I am a man who was circumsized at birth and I can tell you not having a foreskin has been a lot of trouble to me. Males without a foreskin need to use some kind of lube in order to masturbate. After first trying to masturbate when I was young (and have it not working) I realised this and I began to use anything I could lay my hands on, my mothers creams, butter, olive oil, sun tan lotion. These soaked into my skin and often left zits and burns on my most sensitive area. The penis just does not operate as it was intended to operate without a foreskin. I know Sex with condom for both circumsized and non-circumsized men is not enjoyable for men but I can tell you sex with a condom for a circumsized men is difficult and pointless. I get far more pleasure masturbating with lube. there is also evidence that non-circumsized men will last longer and females feel more pleasure.

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