If feminism's explaination of and solutions to mens' issues aren't sufficient; what do you think is the cause and how do you think we should go about fixing them?

serpentineeyelash · 2019-12-15T13:20:57+00:00

Good question!

There is no One Single, All-Encompassing Root Cause that causes men's issues, and pretending like there is seems like a mistake to me.

This is why I don't subscribe to Patriarchy Theory, "Abolishing Gender", nor to "Gynocentrism" narratives or "Feminism/the Sexual Revolution/Atheism Ruined Western Society" tradcon bullshit.

What feminism does get right is that gender roles and gender stereotypes play an important role in men's issues. However, I think that feminism as it currently operates contributes to perpetuating noxious stereotypes of women as victims and men as perpetrators, as I explain in this comment. Due to this inherent bias, feminist explanations of men's issues tend to overlook or downplay the mere possibility of anti-male bias. For example, this link talks about a study that found boys get graded worse for the same quality of work than girls. Since I'm not a partisan hack (but then again, I would say that), I will also acknowledge that, while I was looking up this link, I came across a study where it was found that girls received worse grades in math when the teachers knew they were girls, so obviously it's more complicated than "teachers are always biased against boys". But acknowledging that anti-male bias is real (even when it doesn't somehow simultaneously hurts women more) often seems like a bridge too far.

What I would advocate for is studying these different issues in all their complexity, acknowledging both the role of cultural, social and economical factors as well as biological factors, and finding specific solutions for every issue rather than looking at everything through a lense of female victimization by men. I would be prepared to call myself a feminist IF there were a Fifth Wave of Feminism that abandoned the "men as oppressors, women as oppressed" framework in favor of true egalitarianism. And since we are on /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates, I think studying the ways in which capitalism impacts these gender issues through woke capitalist cooptation and other mechanisms is of vital importance.

My go-to example for a book that lays out the ways in which men are or were disadvantaged in society in a relatively unbiased manner (i.e. not through the lense of feminist patriarchy theory or MRA-style "gynocentrism") is "The Second Sexism" by David Benatar. It's a sober, data-driven look at the issues and the numbers by an author who identifies nor as a feminist, nor as an MRA.

But to end my comment, before someone says "hey you whined about feminism again instead of proposing solutions", I'll reiterate what I said in the comment I linked to: the first policy I would enact if I were in charge of any country that is not in Scandinavia (because they already have it there) is equal parental leave for both parents, because I believe the disparity in parental leave between men and women to be one of the main contributors to gender disparities in modern society.

Melthengylf · 2019-12-15T12:52:51+00:00

I have a detailed view, that is based on (patrilineal) kin corporate Mode of Production, which is a well known mode of production of tribal societies, that is, pre-statist societies. I believe that "patriarchy" means that, and I do believe that it includes oppression of women, but oppression of women is not the cause nor the objective of the (P)KCMP. As any mode of production, the cause are the material conditions, and the organization of work. This does create the gender roles as many other things. Specifically, for men, it has the consecquence of disposability, which I believe it is not reducible to women's oppression.

The problem I have with feminism is not that I disagree with the issue that male gender roles are harming us, it is not that I disagree with the issue with toxic masculinity harming us and it is not that I disagree with the idea that women are oppressed. It is that I disagree with the idea that oppression of women is an all-encompasating explanation for the pain of men, or that it fully explains the structure of gender roles.

I have found that the best tool by far for men to dismantle gender roles is empathy amongst men. Note that men are frequently kind of not very good at giving empathy. From incels' "you are too ugly and don't deserve love, the best thing you can do is to kill yourself" to mgtows' "everything that happens to you is your fault because you are too naïve and still believe in affection and other fairy tales", I believe we have a long path to go.

excess_inquisitivity · 2019-12-15T16:25:13+00:00

Many feminists acknowladge them and say that are a result of patriarchy and are addressed by feminism.

That's the difference.

Feminism embraces the mindset that all problems are ultimately men's fault, and that the very few that are exclusively biological (for example, strictly biological differences) are at least made worse by the faults of men. It's far more complicated than that, but mainstream feminism still brushes these causes under the idea that men caused each of the complicated secondary and tertiary supporting reasons, therefore it's still ultimately men's fault.

But when you, rightly, accuse feminists of blaming men, they "clarify" by blaming it on "patriarchy", which they'll remind you later, is the fault of men or the fault of men & women who are brainwashed by men.

mtcapri · 2019-12-15T16:50:10+00:00

Personally, I don't think some sophisticated theory for the origin(s) of sexism in society is needed to combat it, only the ability to recognize it when and where it's occurring. Patriarchy theory and all the other ideas generated by feminist academics has done little to improve the fight against societal sexism that simple common sense hadn't already taken care of. You don't need to subscribe to the idea of patriarchy to know it's only fair to give women the right to vote and work. You don't need to know about male disposability to realize that it's unfair that virtually all the people who go off to war and die for their country are men, while women are kept safe at home. Can you give me an example of a major change in society that occurred, specifically because society embraced some crucial aspect of feminist theory, rather than just realized some unfair shit was going on and finally got motivated enough to correct it?

In my opinion, feminist academic theory has done more to harm efforts towards equality, as when it has gotten things wrong, it has been used to misdirect people away from the truth. Case in point: the Duluth Model. Had feminists not successful popularized that misguided view of domestic violence, efforts to combat DV might have included more male victims and female perpetrators. We could have worked on this problem the way we should have—as a non-gendered issue—but feminists selectively played on the very patriarchal gender norms they claim they want to dismantle for women's exclusive benefit, leaving male victims in the dust for 50 years now.

There are plenty of other examples I could give, but that would be straying from my main point, which is that I don't think an academic theory of sexism is required to recognize sexist behavior and correct it. So, why is an alternative to feminist theory even necessary, OP?

Oncefa2 · 2019-12-15T14:51:33+00:00

I've written about my thoughts here in the past, but honestly I don't think it's even important to put blame anywhere. Sometimes, like in the case of feminist lobbying groups advocating for sexist laws that harm men, it might be important to point out. But I think actually addressing these problems is more important than pointing fingers.

More funding for homelessness, better resources for male victims of domestic violence, better divorce and child custody laws, combating anti-male stereotypes in society and in the media (maybe even "telling women to treat men better around the house"), etc, are all things that need to happen, and they can all happen without anyone pointing fingers at anybody (so long as, for example, feminists don't get in the way of any of this).

serpentineeyelash · 2019-12-16T00:42:06+00:00

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a perfect response, but here are some points.

Yes, it's about the traditional male role - and also about traditional negative stereotypes of males. Feminism constantly reinforces the latter and sometimes reinforces the former, so feminism is not the solution.

My detailed objections to feminist takes on specific male issues vary depending on the issue and the feminist. But overall there is a bias toward portraying men as oppressors, women as oppressed, and this being the cause of every gender issue. Even the gendered terminology like "patriarchy" is part of the problem.

Feminist theory tends to argue or imply that women's issues are at the root of all gender issues while men's issues are a side effect (aka "patriarchy hurts men too"), which cannot be demonstrated from the available historical evidence. Consider that even according to most feminists, "patriarchy" began around the dawn of civilization. But it could be argued that the beginnings of "male disposability" were present even in the earlier hunter-gatherer roles. Ultimately, sex/gender roles evolved alongside each other and it's hard to say which came first. Did it start with women being exploited for their wombs, or men being exploited for their unimpregnable bodies? It's rather chicken or egg.

The point is, if male disadvantages arguably precede female disadvantages, then liberating women won't automatically liberate men as some feminists seem to believe.

Feminism is relatively fine with mens issues they think women can benefit from addressing (e.g. paternity leave or expression of certain emotions), but tend to deny or downplay issues women wouldn't benefit from addressing (female on male violence, false accusations/due process violations, child custody, general justice system bias, and much more).

So, how to start actually tearing it down? That's a big question I don't know the full answer to, but I think a good start is to challenge the prejudice (held by both traditionalists and feminists) that men are hyperagents and women are hypoagents. And to challenge the traditional male protector-provider role

In the longer term, we may have to wait for technological solutions to even out the biological differences between the sexes - e.g. artificial wombs. Technology has already done a lot to liberate all genders compared to 100 years ago - machines have already replaced a lot of traditionally gendered labor. That being said, we'll also need to work towards an economic and political system that doesn't screw over anyone whose usefulness to society has been replaced by technology.

plitox_is_a_bitch · 2019-12-16T07:01:41+00:00

One of the most disappointing things I found out in uni was when I did gender studies as part of a cultural studies subject:

I found that it and feminism had a great set of tools for examining gender and the interactions and structures that a formed because of it...

...except that it was taboo for feminism to turn those tools inwards and look into itself.

bkrugby78 · 2019-12-15T15:40:47+00:00

I think it's important to separate feminists who actually exist, versus feminists on Reddit. Feminists on Reddit have a very base view of gender issues and there is a lot of toxicity associated with what they write. That's why when you go to a Feminist based sub, there is a lot of male blaming for everything, as well as jokes and downright hurtful comments about men, ignoring what they are going through.

Actual feminists who exist tend to be more, egalitarian in my view. As in, women I know outside of Reddit, who are feminists and tend to generally understand that there are men that face certain issues and saying something like "be better" isn't a viable solution.

For me, many of these problems are so ingrained in our society that trying to unwind ourselves from it is a monumental task that I don't see how, even if it were possible, could be properly achieved in the next 100 years.

Some others mentioned empathy, which is a good idea in my opinion. Be more willing to share but also willing to listen, when a friend of yours wants to talk about something.

ur_waifus_prolapse · 2019-12-15T14:34:02+00:00

I believe feminism has the necessary tools to identify men's issues, for example the way traditional gender roles ("patriarchy") stifle the individual. And, indeed, if you honestly apply feminist standards for systemic oppression on the male experience, it is impossible not to conclude men are oppressed; their labour is exploited, their lives are sacrificed, their bodies are mutilated, and their emotions are trampled upon under the rationalisation of being a "real man". Most of these concerns are practical everyday issues with straightforward solutions.

Yet, when you look at feminists in academia, the media, and in positions of power, it is blatantly obvious men are treated as jokes, oppressors, and subhumans. The feminist spaces where men's issues are genuinely acknowledged and discussed are non-existent; every single time a feminist men's space pops up, it is immediately revealed to be misandric.

If feminists have the intellect and the theory necessary to identify these issues, and yet they don't, what is the simplest explanation?

Feminists don't care about men, and by extension their issues. They disagree with traditional gender roles, when they disadvantage women. When they advantage women, or when they disadvantage men, they are wholly in favour. They genuinely believe men are subhumans, that they deserve to serve women, and to be rewarded with suffering and misery.

If you are a "male feminist", and you genuinely care about men's issues, ask yourself if you are okay calling these people your allies—the people who predominantly represent your label hate all men, they hate all masculinity, they hate the Y chromosome, they hate testosterone, and they hate everything men love, they love everything men hate, and they destroy everything men have created. To what extent is the "feminist" label even useful as this point? It seems to me that the left has been brainwashed by the feminist cult to believe the only viable gender sociology is through a man-hating, gynocentric lens, even as those lens produce garbage that falls apart at the slightest inspection.

Blauwpetje · 2019-12-17T13:15:54+00:00

Feminism is partly the cause of men's problems. F ex men's growing problems with getting a partner, having sex, getting close to women is caused by feminists muddling up every 'unwanted' movement from awkward approaches to rape. The best way feminism can solve this is admitting they have been doing this for decades and it has to stop.

highmrk · 2019-12-16T02:16:27+00:00

The reason most people, both men and women, have most issues today is because of capitalism. And also urbanization to a certain extent.

I can’t emphasize enough how much capitalism infects our society. Read Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. Read Marx or at least Marxist economists.

Feminists go on and on about patriarchy, toxic masculinity, mansplaining, etc is because they know they have a problem, but they don’t have the language for it. Same for men who think gynocracy is the root of all problems today. It’s important to take into account both feminist and MRA experiences, but unless they have a critique of capitalism, then they’re just gonna be pointing fingers at each other without getting to the root cause

Title	If feminism's explaination of and solutions to mens' issues aren't sufficient; what do you think is the cause and how do you think we should go about fixing them?
Author	mrsuperguy
Upvotes	13
Comments	78
Date	December 15, 2019 12:14 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/eayapa/if_feminisms_explaination_of_and_solutions_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/if-feminisms-explaination-of-and-solutions-to-mens.1064296 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064296

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