Is there a genuine and objective argument against lookism?

Snoo52682 · 2021-10-29T09:27:16+00:00

Being attractive makes life easier in certain ways. No one denies that. It's also far from the only determinant of quality of life, career achievement and satisfaction, and romantic and sexual fulfillment.

RedPillDetox · 2021-10-29T10:08:18+00:00

Let me start by asking, what would you consider objective scientific evidence against Blackpill?

And what is a study or 2 that you absolutely consider prime example of scientific support for black pillt?

Fraidy-Dog · 2021-10-29T14:00:20+00:00

I think the absolutes of blackpill make it a logical fallacy. I'm in a job where I speak to a LOT of people. I meet homely or odd looking guys in relationships all the time - weak chins, balding, puffy faced, you name it.

Is dating and finding casual sex harder if you're not conventionally attractive? I'd say yes, absolutely. Does harder mean impossible? No.

I also think people who subscribe very hard to lookism underestimate the other factors at play. I've seen photos of guys who consider themselves too ugly and weak jawed to date who just look a little plain to me but otherwise fine. Many of the guys that come here focus on an immutable characteristic but when questioned in these threads reveal things like: they don't have social opportunities to connect with women, they have introvert hobbies that they have trouble finding people who share, they limit their conversations with women for a variety of reasons, etc.

Again, if you have all those factors but look like a fucking Greek god, you'll probably find a girl anyway. But if you're not conventionally attractive, it doesn't mean you're screwed.

As for other treatment by society...do you treat strangers noticably worse if you think they're unattractive? Are you mean to "ugly" people for no reason? Will you do a shitty job for someone just because of their weak jaw?

I'm sure there are some people who do this. I also wouldn't doubt that super attractive people get more perks or special treatment some of the time. But that doesn't mean homely people are treated like scum. A lot of people with weak chins or big noses lead pretty normal lives.

If you've got a significant facial difference like Treacher Collins you might get more significant ill treatment. But if you're just not a Brad Pitt I think you can reasonably expect the possibility of a normal life barring other factors.

Even from a purely selfish perspective, treating less attractive people like garbage is going to blow back on you. If you half ass your work for ugly customers, especially the bar of what incels consider "ugly", you'll be half assing a lot. And if you're constantly rude to a bunch of strangers eventually you'll get blowback. Getting along with people is usually the easiest and most beneficial thing for the individual.

Quo_Usque · 2021-10-29T09:26:09+00:00

mind giving an ELI5 on lookism so I don't have to go wading through the cesspools to look it up myself

spankyourkopita · 2021-10-29T10:45:31+00:00

I would just stop worrying about looks so much. You'll drive yourself crazy.

Red_Trapezoid · 2021-10-29T11:45:35+00:00

You guys overcomplicate this. People treat people who respect themselves and take care of themselves better than people who don't. It's not always fair but it is how it is. People are going to give more leeway to a person who looks well put together like they are trying their best than to someone who looks like they have never showered or changed their clothes. It is of CRITICAL importance to look as good as you possibly can because you will mess up in life at some point and how people perceive you will often decide what repercussions you suffer. Again, not always fair but that's the game.

castion12 · 2021-10-29T13:59:27+00:00

I mean the whole lookism argument is there for women as well. Incels kinda ignore that ugly women are people too, and I think for them it genuinely must be disheartening to see guys think that 6 or 7/10 women and above represent the experiences that all women go through.

Learningtolove2021 · 2021-10-29T12:42:09+00:00

Couple of things: first, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, men care far more about looks than women do. The black pill notion that the opposite is true is absurd. Have women been allowed by various cultural developments (birth control, financial independence and education, etc) to be more selective in all ways in choosing partners than in the past? Absolutely. But honestly, it’s the non physical factors that are mattering just as much more. Women (not all but many) would rather be single than be stuck with an overgrown manchild who doesn’t pull his weight financially or around the house and who is emotionally distant or abusive.

Lookism absolutely exists - I know this better than anyone as a woman who has been on various points on the looks spectrum. The difference in treatment is palpable. However, as a woman who is older I can also say that in my experience, both genders are most shallow when young, and tend to get more mature and realistic over time.

Black pill has bits of truth in it - a recessed chin is going to be a tough sell for anyone, male or female. But for quite a few of the folks who identify this way, their looks are average (eg normal) and by far their larger problem is social skills. I listen to the Incel podcast and have heard her say several times that fully 25% of guys who identify as incels have been diagnosed on the spectrum and that many more are probably subclinically autistic leaning. Social skills are really everything in dating. If you don’t have that, looks won’t help you. There are sound biological reasons for this- women have to screen potential dates for signs that they could become violent toward them, and poor social skills rings that alarm bell.

The good news is that for most, social skills can be improved. The bad news is, there are almost no resources out there to teach young men how to improve their social skills. That vacuum leads to a sense of hopelessness and these alternative explanations about eye whites and jaw curvature that are just ridiculous. Looks aren’t nothing, but no one gets that granular when they are looking for someone to date. It’s a holistic assessment. I know it’s strangely comforting to think there is one simple answer to human behavior and nothing you can do to improve but it simply isn’t true.

AbuJavascript · 2021-10-29T15:15:33+00:00

Being good looking as a man is like being a multimillionaire - it affords you a ton of benefits and opportunities with society and women, but it's a rare exception and not the norm. Even for good looking men, they only enjoy that for a small window of time, then they become too old.

I think that the first thing men should do is forget that giga-chads exist, accept the reality that you aren't one, and try to learn to enjoy the normie life.

I believe that even ugly men can, through status, grooming, etc, overtake normies in SMV.

The life of a normie is that, you won't be able to use tinder to find women. These apps are looks oriented and designed only for the gigachad.

But if you learn to build your social circle, personality, looksmax, etc, then you can enjoy your life and attract a small handful of women.

Of course it will always be a struggle but it's not "over" as incels say.

This is the default state of man. But blackpill is focused on seething envy towards the gigachad who is an extreme outlier, just like the multimillionaire.

Questi0nRea1ity · 2021-10-29T21:55:39+00:00

Ouch. My head hurts. Some genius level terminology, no doubt, but smh...

vcreativ · 2021-10-31T15:43:49+00:00

Just based on your own observation, are you under the impression that given two alternatives of men there is (a) always one that looks better than another when considered by any(!) woman, and (b) any(!) woman would always go for that one, completely ignoring everything else?

Possibl traits including things like: humour, wealth, status, connection, honesty, integrity, emotional stability,...

Take a look at longterm single Joey dating at comicon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuTjFcHE2WI

Since your hypothesis was a general claim I only had to come up with a single counter-example. The burden of proof that such an exception to your rule doesn't exist is now on you. Happy proving. Papers are allowed. :)

P.S.:

It should be noted that the internet isn't real. Please spend time with people outside the internet. You'll find they date all kind of weirdos and dorks. Weird, I know.

CheesecakeAgitated73 · 2022-03-06T21:41:26+00:00

lookism is real , anyone who says the opposite is just a coping redditor who gets cucked by le significant other lmao

Title	Is there a genuine and objective argument against lookism?
Author	Prestigious-Mud-1304
Upvotes	2
Comments	49
Date	October 29, 2021 9:22 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/qi8tyj/is_there_a_genuine_and_objective_argument_against/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/is-there-a-genuine-and-objective-argument-against.1081172 https://theredarchive.com/post/1081172

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