stoicism and men

AvoidPinkHairHippos · 2022-05-28T12:09:00+00:00

I am a strong supporter of men talking more about their problems, I really am. however the following caveats apply

I believe in most cases, men trying to talk about their issues to women will end badly, unless you're close to her. You are likely to get ostracized and cancelled at worst, or unintentionally misunderstood at best
I also believe men should be talking with either close male friends and family first, or failing that, talk to communities like us, in an anonymous setting. If you instead go public, I really fear that you will be subject to (again) misunderstanding, ostracism, or just lack of empathy
ultimately, we must copy the successful examples set by feminists by using collective action to push sustainable political advocacy. No I don't mean a advocacy group per se (we already have some of that), but just educational outreach via the Internet by using explicitly anti misandrist methods (ie. Don't do the feminist thing of simply blaming the victim thru euphemisms like blaming masculinity or patriarchy)

Thanks to the successful efforts of feminists taking over much of journalism, entertainment industry, colleges, and various political bodies, the West is in a situation where the average Rando man and woman understands women's views and issues far greater than men's unique experiences and issues from a non misandrist perspective

And yes, fuck Jordan Peterson

SCArnoldos · 2022-05-28T08:12:44+00:00

Talk to people that care about you, not about what you can do for them.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-05-28T10:57:29+00:00

I wrote a short post about Stoicism as a philosophy in the early days of the mensupportmen sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/mensupportmen/comments/owssyi/stoic_practice_as_a_toolbox_for_mental_health/

decs00046 · 2022-05-28T18:42:32+00:00

Stoicism is incredibly misunderstood and as a result gets a bad rap. I don't necessarily think Peterson's view (in this instance) is an explicitly conservative view though, or that what he means by a weak man is one who shares his feelings. Not to leap to his defence, but he has clarified when pressed that showing vulnerability isn't weakness. There is an important distinction that might not always be obvious.

I personally haven't experienced a woman losing interest in me sexually because I've expressed my emotions with her. Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'd just be curious as to how exactly the men for whom it happens to are actually expressing their emotions.

However, I do also believe the trope that 'men don't talk' and that's why they kill themselves is untrue. Article I seen recently reported that 90% of men who took their own life had reached out for psychological support before hand. I've seen a few numbers floated about, and this is a more liberal estimate than most tbf. Nonetheless, I really believe the more we keep perpetuating the idea that men die at their own hands because of a refusal to talk, the further we get from addressing the issues in society and approaches to male mental health that are actually contributing to it.

Starforce2005 · 2022-05-29T00:19:33+00:00

Hi, I'm the OP of that similar post.

What we need to do is to create an environment, where men accepting other men for being emotional, showing compassion towards each other, once men feel its safe to open up, they will do it on their own. This is different than forcing them to open-up(which is what the feminists does), but instead we create the environment first.

Of course if an individual decide to be stoic, its also their freedom, but he should never impose or even shame other men for not complying his view.

Men imposing other men to embrace stoicism, calling them whinny/weak for showing emotion, is even worse than feminist.

Jordan Peterson is a tradcon , which is not male-friendly, tradcon imposes harmful gender-role to men, these gender-role embrace male disposability.

Stoicism doesn't only suppress our voice, but it also suppress our humanization, resulting in us receiving less empathy. The empathy gap is not going to fix itself.

In a nutshell, stoicism might situationally (The reason I use the word situationally is because in the long run suppressing emotion could lead to health problem) benefit people on an individual level, but politically? Its suicide, it will never help that group in a democratic society where gaining empathy is the key to win support.

Why do you think in traditional society only men are taught to be stoic, but not women? They need to dehumanize men in order to make them disposable (which the disposability of male population makes the rest of society prosper, but at what cost?)

People will react differently if thousands of women dies compare to men. But just do a thought experiment, imaging if men are not taught to be stoic in the first place, if men also cry like women do (before the social norm of manhood is established), do you not think people will at least be more empathetical? The reason we criticize men for showing emotion is because we are already used to it, but that doesn't mean it's natural, stoicism is a learnt trait, not a biological trait.

Heck, we show even more empathy towards dog than men, I don't see how we are biologically wired to not empathize men, if we could empathize another species, we empathize could our own.

hiddeninthewillow · 2022-05-28T22:44:26+00:00

I have to say this is maybe one of my favourite posts on the sub so far.

I focused on existentialism and biological ethics while I studied philosophy but stoicism was also so fascinating. I did a deep thesis dive into the morality of suicide and all that, with a section devoted to male suicide and how it’s viewed differently, treated differently, etc.

As a person who has been a sounding board for many folks (I am gender neutral but was socialised as a woman), I find the most common issues when discussing problems specific to a demographic that is considered to be the opposite of your conversation partner ( ie man and woman, black and white — I don’t like these pure dichotomies but it works well enough as a framework ), people tend to talk past each other. They’re kind of just stating points rather than really engaging with each other. Taking the gender example, here’s some personal anecdotes from myself:

Me, a 16 year old who was on the precipice of some TERF communities because I let my trauma with men overtake my worldview, getting upset when men’s issues were brought up — I couldn’t see a way that men’s problems were worse than women’s. I didn’t even let myself examine the points being told to me.

A male fling of mine in university who refused to believe me when I said it’s incredibly dangerous to have a first date in a secluded place because you don’t really know if that person is safe yet. Since he’s never worried about that, it couldn’t possibly be a valid concern. I was just in disbelief that he couldn’t understand the fear of being hurt by a man I didn’t know well enough to trust, hell, that anyone could trust a stranger enough to meet them in a secluded area.

I fully endorse internal self-interrogation; why does this statement piss me off? Why am I reacting this way? Do I actually have the right facts, or am I just bending previous knowledge to fit my worldview? Is the person I’m talking to engaging in a good faith argument?

And most important, is this conversation intellectually and personally useful for me right now? That one helped me a lot. Sometimes, I still have trouble engaging with men’s rights because of my past, but when that happens, I accept that this is a concern I need to deal with because I’m not in a space where I can learn and challenge myself.

Happy to chat about this more! This is such a fascinating topic, and I’m so happy men are finally getting more space to express themselves, to have their concerns heard and validated. It makes me glad that I got out of those really toxic places and was able to keep overcoming my biases and connect with more people.

WhenIsItOkayToHate · 2022-05-28T22:50:37+00:00

Jordan Peterson is mocked constantly for his showing of emotion. I think you have him misunderstood.

IvannaHumpalott · 2022-06-02T04:32:36+00:00

I think a lot of you guys saying "if I reveal my actual emotions, women are going to lose attraction to me" are actually paranoid about that and just looking for the worst case negative examples to confirm your own suffering. There are countless examples of women in my life who I have dated and have talked to that said wholeheartedly that as long as they are expressed as "I feel...." statements, and not shoved onto the women as their responsibility, the women find vulnerability very attractive and intimate. Seriously, I think y'all need to start challenging your depressed brains and look for examples that don't confirm your worst fears.

Title	stoicism and men
Author	rochesterslim
Upvotes	34
Comments	22
Date	May 28, 2022 5:03 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/uzg8g6/stoicism_and_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/stoicism-and-men.1118318 https://theredarchive.com/post/1118318

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