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Should false rape accusers be sued?By Roxanne Jones

blueoak9

December 17, 2013

16 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/17/opinion/jones-rape-claim-lawsuits/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

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Post Information

Title	Should false rape accusers be sued?By Roxanne Jones
Author	blueoak9
Upvotes	16
Comments	75
Date	December 17, 2013 8:29 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1t43pm/should_false_rape_accusers_be_suedby_roxanne_jones/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/should-false-rape-accusers-be-suedby-roxanne-jones.1155893 https://theredarchive.com/post/1155893

Comments

[–]Bartab 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]StanleyDerpalton 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Bartab 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheIdesOfLight -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bartab 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheIdesOfLight 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Bartab 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Grover-Cleveland 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]jpflathead -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ging287 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tjmburns3 points 12 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]StanleyDerpalton 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tjmburns1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

[+]AnitaSnarkeesian 20 points21 points22 points 12 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

[–]IS44 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]StanleyDerpalton 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]StanleyDerpalton 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlamingBearAttack 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlamingBearAttack 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In the best case scenario, a man (and I do mean men, since we known women are not punished for rape) who is anonymously accused would be ordered to the Dean's office, informed that they may have sexually assaulted someone, and told to watch their behaviour in the future.

That would be quite upsetting, intimidating, and worrisome - in other words, harmful - to someone who has been falsely accused.

And that's the best case.

Worst case: men who are anonymously accused are noted down on a quasi-sex offender list, used as "proof" to find guilt in the event of any future accusations, publicly outed by vindictive employees (who are after all, promoting justice - or so they see it.), etc.

The bottom line is - you are literally defending a system where one can make anonymous rape accusations against specific men, who will then face real-life consequence as a result.

And you think that is quite beneficial, and supports rape victims.

I'm fucking disgusted.

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Reporting every member of the Deans Office is neither immoral, nor harmful. The intent of the action is to shut down the system, not to actually harm the members.

And the result of the action does not create harm, since the employee(s) of the Deans Office who view such reports would obviously see that all members had been reported, and just as obviously not punish themselves.

So therefore that means it is not immoral nor harmful with reporting all members of the Deans Office, since the intent is laudable, and the actual result is non-harmful.

Reporting feminists who supported the system with the intent to shut down the system and additionally to harm said feminists is not immoral, since anyone who supports such a system deserves to be harmed by such a system.

It could indeed result in harm to said feminists - but that is unlikely. It is unlikely that reports against such feminists would be taken seriously, which is quite unlikely given the coincidence of all such feminists being reported, and that rape reports against women (it is likely that most of those feminists would be female) are ignored/dismissed.

Reporting random women with the intent to shut down the system (but no actual desire to harm them) falls under the same as the above - laudable intentions, and non-harmful result.

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Are you trying to tell me that people would think that reporting every member of the Deans Office as a rapist, on an online form with reports that are overseen by members of the Deans Office, would result in said members being punished or disciplined in any way?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

Because that is quite ridiculous.

Furthermore, your are intentionally misrepresenting what the forms purpose actually is.

No I am not. The school's own documents say that any perpetrator named on the anonymous form would result in said perpetrator being ordered down to the Dean's Office, told they were accused of committing sexual assault, and warned to watch their behaviour.

And that is the best case scenario.

If you are referring to this statement:

Filling out fake claims on an anonymous online form meant to be used to report people as rapists

That is an undeniably true statement, reporting people as rapists on it is not a "bug", it is a feature of the system, working as intended.

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

The purpose of the form is to allow rape victims to report the incidents. They are not even required to name their rapists... If they choose to name them the school conducts and investigation and depending on the results of said investigation can choose to counsel the accused, in the hopes of preventing further incidents of rape and sexual assault.

The people making the false accusations fully believed that the people they accused would be "charged", "made to squirm", be subjected to "secret trials", and not able "to just walk away " from the accusations. They intended to do actual harm.

Your argument that feminists deserve harm because they are feminist feeds in the narrative that 2 wrongs makes men's rights! So way to go.

The people being reported were "random women", the staff of the "critical theory and social justice" department, and anyone arbitrarily deemed to be feminists (which you would have no way of knowing if they supported this form or not so the assumption is that all feminists in being feminist are supporting this form).

You are trying to excuse and reframe deplorable behavior and it's not going to work so piss in the wind elsewhere.

I've now noted you support making false rape accusations against people you know are innocent so you don't need to further prove your support.

Good day !

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Wow, you dishonest piece of crap.

You edited the screenshots linked in your above comment, and took out the one you had originally linked about reporting members of the Dean's Office, since it was inconvenient to your dishonest argument:

http://i.imgur.com/0chec5F.jpg

The purpose of the form is to allow rape victims to report the incidents. They are not even required to name their rapists..

Naming the perpetrators is a feature of the form, that is the form working as intended. So, the form is literally intended to be used to anonymously report people as rapists, which is what I said.

If they choose to name them the school conducts and investigation and depending on the results of said investigation can choose to counsel the accused

.....

You are incredibly dishonest.

The people making the false accusations fully believed that the people they accused would be "charged", "made to squirm", be subjected to "secret trials", and not able "to just walk away " from the accusations. They intended to do actual harm.

Yes, MRAs believed that the men accused on this form would face harm as a result of these accusations.

They did not believe that reporting every member of the Dean's Office on a form run by the Dean's Office, would result in said members suffering consequences.

I've now noted you support making false rape accusations against people you know are innocent so you don't need to further prove your support.

I would repeat again how dishonest you are, but I think everyone knows that at this point.

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]vivadisgrazia0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GrimB0LD -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]ihateusernamesalot 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]tjmburns 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GrimB0LD 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]sapiophile 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I read through the entire link you provided. No mention of the MRM. No one identified themselves as an MRA. It's a 4chan thread with posts by 4chan(ers). Have you got anything else you'd like to waste my time with? What is it that you don't understand about the fact that 4chan and Politically Incorrect does not represent the MRM? I mean why not go to NAMBLA.com or PUPPYKILLER.com and quote your imaginary MRA persecutors from their? You see here's what you fail to understand. Just because other people (all sorts of people) don't approve of what Occidental college is doing, doesn't mean that you get to lump all those people into your MRM dumpster. It doesn't mean you get to accuse the MRM, as movement, of filing false accusation on that website. I'm calling you out on this bullshit because I'm sick of it, I'm sick of people like you deliberately misleading people. Knock it the fuck off and grow the fuck up. You are practicing the exact thought process that lead to the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII - don't you see it? Stop it.

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I messaged all seven - not the OP, because I'm even less uncomfortable calling him an MRA than the others. Eight names, Eight zealots, but even if it had been 40 or 100, or 1000 - still not fair to say that this is representative of the entire MRM, and yes I am invoking the NA(MRA'S)ALT defense.

Here are the messages I sent: BlueOak9 - The fact that you openly entertained and/or supported the idea of raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan tactics. You have effectively contributed to the unwarranted villainization of the MRM.

SirSkeptic - The fact that you openly entertained and/or supported the idea of raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan tactics. You have effectively contributed to the unwarranted villainization of the MRM.

WhiteThrone - The fact that you openly entertained and/or supported the idea of raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan tactics. You have effectively contributed to the unwarranted villainization of the MRM.

Froggymorning - The fact that you participated in raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan-like tactics. You have effectively contributed to the villainization of the MRM. You're not helping, you're hurting the MRM.

Thepigmanagain - The fact that you participated in raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan-like tactics. You have effectively contributed to the villainization of the MRM. You're not helping, you're hurting the MRM.

Knucker2 - The fact that you openly entertained the idea of raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan tactics. You have effectively contributed to the unwarranted villainization of the MRM.

Muffinizer1 - The fact that you participated in raiding the Occidental website has only helped to perpetuate the notion that the MRM uses 4chan-like tactics. You have effectively contributed to the villainization of the MRM. You're not helping, you're hurting the MRM.

But I AM going to bat over this. I'm going to post a general criticism of so called MRAs who participated in this raid, because they do not represent the views of the MRM in this matter.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]blueoak9[S] -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]sapiophile 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]StanleyDerpalton 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mousylion 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]vivadisgrazia 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mousylion 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]tjmburns 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

A false rape accuser is a criminal, as predatory as a rapist - the trauma is essentially the same. That criminal history should be taken into account. If a known con artist, with a criminal history of conning people, one day levels an accusation against another person - that should be taken into consideration - wouldn't you agree. This is no different.

Maybe they just couldn't provide enough evidence.

A false rape accusation is not the same as a failed rape prosecution. Every rape allegation should be viewed from a neutral perspective - as any other crime should be.

what if the jury was corrupt?

Corruption happens. Innocent people go to jail everyday, and predators walk free everyday. The criminal justice system is not perfect and it never will be, but "rape" shouldn't mean a different set of rules with regard to equal protection under the law. You start doing that and you've opened the flood gates for abuse and corruption.

[–]mousylion 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Is that a necessary risk?

Yes. In my opinion.

how many of the 'false rape accusations' that were actually 'failed rape prosecutions' do you think belong to the statistics?

Again, a failed prosecution and a false accusation are two entirely different things. A false accusation should require compelling evidence that the accusation was leveled under false pretenses - and should, by design, be challenging to prove. A failed prosecution simply means that a conviction wasn't achieved because there was a reasonable doubt. That "reasonable doubt" part is a cornerstone of the modern criminal justice system, and it basically means that a society has agreed that it is far worse to convict and punish an innocent person than it is to let a criminal go unpunished. Now you may not agree with that premise (and it's clear that MANY people share that view), but that is a foundational premise of common law. You're free to try to change that premise, but until you do, your argument about "actually failed rape prosecutions" is irrelevent, and if/when that premise changes - it MUST be applied universally to all sorts of crimes and victims to avoid complete hypocrisy, and that is not something to be taken lightly.

The trauma that comes with rape can cause people to "remember things differently."

Trauma and numerous other things can cause people to "remember things differently." That's why physical evidence and testimony is so important.

[–]mousylion 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

False rape accusation is a problem, but isn't rape a worse crime

I'm on the fence about that. Here's why: An actual rape victim will likely have experienced physical violence/damage in addition to the emotional/psychological damage, but that doesn't guarantee a ruined life, with adequate health care, counseling and support - that is NOT to say that it DOESN'T carry a very real potential for a ruined life.

But you're right "Rape Culture" only reinforces rape victim stigma. We shouldn't be stigmatizing real victims in society in this day, but that is not something that legislation will ever be capable of correcting. That is a cultural shortfall. Having a name cleared for a false accusation, likewise, has little effect on stigma - again, this is outside the power of law and therefore can't be legislated and shouldn't be taken into consideration with regard to law.

A successful prosecuted false accusation essentially guarantees a ruined life - which is why I think our system of law insists on "beyond a reasonable doubt" . However, an unsuccesful prosecution still carries with it a stigma for the accused, and very little stigma for the accuser, if that accusation is found to be inadequately proven or even deliberately false. Again, not something that can be fixed with legislation, unless both parties are afforded equal anonymity - which may be impossible in practice.

I simply don't accept the notion that harsh punishments for those proven to have willfully leveled a false accusation (under the same due process and evidence requirement of any other crime) would discourage actual rape victims from coming forward, provided we recognize and understand the fact that a failed prosecution does not mean a false allegation by default.

[–]mousylion 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You make a reasonable argument. But a false rape accusation isn't always, and most of the time probably isn't, made on purpose. Traumatic events are hard for people to remember; in the case of rape problems with memory could lead people to remember things differently, and even then they can always mistake someone who 'looks like' the rapist as they remember for the actual rapist. Should there be a process to determine whether or not the victim--if he/she is one--made the allegation under the knowledge that the alleged rapist was innocent, and, if so, how would the criminal justice system determine it? Intent is a hard thing to prove, mind you, and if the victim was mistaken vs. purposefully committing libel should we give the victim the benefit of the doubt and NOT press charges after acquitting the defendant?

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's bullshit. If someone frames you for simple assault, it doesn't make them guilty of simple assault it makes them guilty of fraud and perjury. We don't need new laws for this shit, we just need to enforce the existing ones.

And a registry? Have you paid no attention to the amount of damage that the sex offender registry has done? The only purpose of a public registry is to ostracize an individual from their community. It punishes them for life, and prevents them from reintegrating in any meaningful way. It might possibly mean a life of crime.

These suggestions are a dramatic overreaction. We don't need a registry or to put people in jail for 10 years for lying, we just need to enforce reasonable standards of proof and charge people with existing laws when there is sufficient evidence they knowingly and maliciously lied to the police and/or court. That would do just fine to stop false accusations and it wouldn't require ruining more people's lives in order to get there.

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]sea_warrior 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lazlounderhill 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Only if it is 100% provable that the accuser was knowingly lying should their name be added to any kind of registry.

I agree with this completely.

This protection should also be afforded to the accused, until proven guilty. Affording anonymous protection to an accuser, while not simultaneously affording anonymity to the accused undermines this protection, completely. You either do away with anonymity altogether, or you afford it to both the accused and the accuser. Anything short of that is basically throwing due process out of the window. The second you preserve the anonymity of one and not the other, you have already done irreparable harm to the other.

What's worse is that creates a terrible and dangerous precedence (in fact that precedence has indeed already been set), in which all that is needed to essentially destroy another person's life is to level an accusation against him/her.

[–]JaydenPope 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Indignantary -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link