I've asked 3 feminists what a men's rights activist is. These were the responses. ..

dakru · 2013-11-01T02:02:56+00:00

I think we underestimate how receptive people in the real world are to understanding that men have issues too. The problem is that they're just not aware of it. It's hard for someone to care that men make up a big majority of the homeless of they aren't even aware that this is the case, for example.

2013-11-01T04:14:32+00:00

I guess what I'm saying is if we talk to some of these femimists and compare view points about gender issues, we might convince some that our views are legitimate

A lot of them recognize some male problems and inequality. The problem is that in their mind these problems are caused by the patriarchy, and the solution is to fight patriarchy, which we do by empowering women. They can talk all they want about being equalists, but propose changes that might make things fair and you're a misogynist.

Feminism doesn't work if women are not perpetually oppressed. If men also have issues, it needs to be inside a feminist framework, or else their worldview falls together like a house of cards.

JaydenPope · 2013-11-01T03:17:26+00:00

I wonder what a feminist would say about female privilege ?

dejour · 2013-11-01T04:42:04+00:00

The truth is that when I talk to feminists that know me in real life, they listen and consider what I have to say to be mostly reasonable. (That said, I usually say something like: I believe we should strive for gender equality. But I believe that there are just as many problems of sexism facing men as those facing women, and so we should work on both sets of problems.)

I think there are two main reasons for this:

The women I know, know that I generally treat people well (including women). So that gives me a little more credibility. I think an anonymous feminist on the internet automatically assumes that I'm some sort of sexist jerk. And so they can just dismiss my argument.
The women I know in real life might be "feminists" but they probably are less invested in feminism than people who spend 4 hours a day talking about it on the internet. So it's less threatening to them to realize some of their assumptions are untrue.

guywithaccount · 2013-11-01T04:57:29+00:00

First night we went on a date for lack of a better term I asked her what an MRM was. Her response: "a bunch of whiny guys who can't get a girl and don't recognize their privilege."

Okay, so, first off, shaming guys who can't get dates? And second, why can't they get girls if they're soooo privileged?

Because, okay, we know they're not rich or powerful, because those will get you laid one way or another. And they don't have high social status, because ditto. And, uh, they don't get to rape chicks, or arranged-marry them, or just straight up command them to give them a blowjob and a sandwich, or anything like that. Doesn't seem very privileged to me.

But, you know, I guess they can walk into a computer store and have a smaller chance of not being treated like a stupid ditz. Because that's a major quality of life issue: sure, you're lonely, horny, poor, and an unimportant nobody, just like pretty much everyone else, but the customer service guy gives you a tiny modicum of respect, YOU GO BOYEE!

Excuse me, I have to do a hell of a lot of eyerolling now.

rightsbot · 2013-11-01T01:52:16+00:00

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SilencingNarrative · 2013-11-01T13:11:17+00:00

Bringing up mens rights issues among my friends and family has mostly gotten me in trouble. I generally don't think out loud anymore. I only bring up issues that I know a lot about so that I can't be easily dismissed.

It may be that the college environment is different in that young men and women have not really cemented which power groups they belong to so their loyalties are up for grabs.

One argument I have started using recently, even among friends and family, is that while a common belief is that women as just as good as men (honorable, intelligent, hard working, ...), we are slow to see that women are just as bad as men (violent, abusive, dishonorable, lazy). Until we are willing to see that, we are doing both men and women a disservice.

I would be curious to see how your feminist friends react to that argument. "You know, I have noticed that feminist theory, while it takes seriously the idea that women are as good as men, doesn't take seriously the idea that women are as bad as men."

I see one obvious feminist response that you should be prepared for:

A: (makes above argument)

B: I agree that women are just as bad as men, but they are physically weaker, so they are not as capable of committing rape or domestic violence against men as men are against women. So it still makes sense for laws to mainly concern themselves with men attacking women and not vice versa.

A: but that doesn't make sense. If two people live together, they have to sleep sometime, at which point they are at the mercy of the other, no matter how much bigger and stronger they are. The weaker person can simply wait for the bigger one to fall asleep, then stun them so badly with a heavy object, that they would be unable to defend themselves further. The only limit to how much damage one person can do to another they live with is how vicious of a personality they have, not how big or strong they are.

Here's another:

A: (makes above argument)

B: But women are not as bad as men. They are equal in capabilities (except for physical strength), and they are not as violent by nature either.

A: Then you are not really a gender eqalitarian. You are a female supremicist. You think women are morally superior to men, and the legal system should side with women over men.

Lurker_IV · 2013-11-01T05:49:36+00:00

TLFF (too long, fixed formatting):

So I don't consider myself a die-hard M.R.M., but I do support a lot of the positions (equal rights for everyone, Draft for everyone, equal consideration for custody, etc). I went to SF state as a history student, thus had to take a lot of women's classes. My mom was an original feminist and was apart of NOW (equal pay, equal treatment). So I've grown up around a lot of feminist stuff and can appreciate some of it. But enough about me.
.

The first feminist was a recent Cal grad and pretty die hard feminist. First night we went on a date for lack of a better term I asked her what an M.R.M. was. Her response: "a bunch of whiny guys who can't get a girl and don't recognize their privilege." I nodded but on the second date asked her how she would feel if I said I was one. She looked taken aback and asked if I had ever posted on a voice for men. I said no. We talked about it and she did mention there was some unfairness towards men and we discussed it. But I guess she got over it cause we went on a third date (last one, couple reasons). However we did meet up again months later and she mentioned she had some problems now with extremist feminists. So progress?
.

Second feminist: more recent said "they don't exist." Considering I was... at a party with her I dropped it.
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Third feminist: she didn't know we existed and asked if I meant human rights. I said no men's rights. She seemed confused amd said I'm not sure how I feel about it. This third one is a good friend of mine so I think I'll bring it up more and try to change some opinions of her's.
.

I guess what I'm saying is if we talk to some of these feminists and compare view points about gender issues, we might convince some that our views are legitimate and they might drop some of their's. Have any of you done or seen something similar? Also sorry about format and spelling, I'm on my phone.
--END FORMATTING-- .

.

I think the problem with feminism and individual feminists is similar to the problem between the National Republican party and what individual Republicans think being republican means.

lazlounderhill · 2013-11-01T16:39:31+00:00

I like your approach and here's why: The MRM had undoubtedly been the target of a widespread and ravenous smear campaign for a very long time. That's not going to change, because it's so damned easy to gang up on a relatively young movement (1970's?) by spreading lies and misinformation about it, en masse - especially when that movement has a very keen interest in drawing attention en masse to some very dubious fundamental aspects of Feminist Dogma. Of course feminists view this as an attack on their person, not their ideas - that's an inevitable side-effect of the wholehearted adoption of the victimhood identity. Feminists view the entire universe through the lens of victimhood, so it's no small wonder that their first impulse is to accuse MRAs of being "whiney" - it's a simple projection of their own world view.

That aside, it's much more difficult to dismiss someone as a caricature when you've exchanged words and thoughts in person and outside the "gender war". Not impossible, mind you (I've personally experienced feminists fly into a kind of bewildered rage when I've identified myself as an MRA after the fact), but generally speaking, the incognito at first approach has some very real potential to evoke some sorely needed cognitive dissonance, when a feminist is suddenly faced with an MRA who isn't the monster they've been conditioned to imagine.

This can be done without compromising one's convictions. I simply don't think it's possible to change the world view of anyone who has bought into the notion of patriarchy entirely, no matter what evidence you present to the contrary. Remember, they believe that men have historically controlled not only their bodies, but their minds as well. That's why they feel no particular obligation to apply good logic or reason to their arguments. It's enough for them to "feel" oppressed, even if that "feeling" has no basis in their actual life experience - even if that "feeling" originated in a women's studies lecture hall, or any other infinite incarnations of the "feminist echo chamber".

Of course, it's perfectly justifiable (and perhaps advisable) to focus one's efforts on raising MRM awareness to the vast majority (something I think we tend to forget) who haven't experienced complete feminist indoctrination.

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-11-01T02:50:19+00:00

we might convince some that our views are legitimate

We don't have to convince them of anything.

Frankly I would rather see the MRM shrivel and die before capitulating to feminism.

The only relation we have to feminism is that in our every endeavor to aid men, hell they're half the time the cause of alot issues men face they are our enemies and opposition.

We didn't choose to deal with them, no sane person would.

If getting feminists to drop the psychotic rhetoric, to stop supporting sexist policies, laws, and rules that aid women at the expense of men was as easy as simply talking to them, it would have already happened.

Nomenimion · 2013-11-01T05:19:45+00:00

These feminists sure seem to spend a lot of time regulating and policing each others' thoughts.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-11-01T05:07:06+00:00

First night we went on a date for lack of a better term I asked her what an MRM was. Her response: "a bunch of whiny guys who can't get a girl and don't recognize their privilege

You should have said, "Well, I got you...", and then winked at her, in a rapey way. And by rapey way I mean handed her the alcoholic drink you probably just bought for her. ;-)

themountaingoat · 2013-11-01T02:05:41+00:00

You might be able to get feminists to say they agree with you in conversations in person, buy you will never get them to change their behavior or actually change their view. The reason is that feminists are cowards, and only agree to avoid conflict.

TomBayes · 2013-11-01T05:03:50+00:00

I have met quite a few number of women who are supportive of the ideas. These tend to be women with brothers and/or sons, or women who are very nurturing (even more so than your stereotypical woman is 'supposed' to be).

The women who seem to be the least supportive always identify themselves as feminists (though, this is not to say all feminists), tend to have no brothers/sons, and often have quite pronounced issues with self esteem.

neoman4426 · 2013-11-01T05:11:09+00:00

Skimmed the first read, thought you were saying you went on a date with your mom. Did a doubletake. Not an insightful or relevant comment I know. Think I need to get some sleep.

LDM312 · 2013-11-01T15:43:36+00:00

I'm not sure I would've given number 1 a second date.

AryaBarzan · 2013-11-01T06:24:29+00:00

A personal thank you for you spreading information of the MRM. We're only growing as time goes on and it's thanks to people like you :)

Either way, as a couple others have said, feminists (as a whole/group) will never support the MRM or fight any of men's issues with any significance because of their sociological conspiracy theories. "Patriarchy" being the largest and most common. If you blame every single ill on a "man-made system" that "privileges" all men at the expense of women, what exactly will you think of men? Do you honestly believe you will be compassionate of men if you believe in this nonsense? And then, imagine you're constantly repeated over-exaggerated rape and domestic violence statistics (against women) which pretend violence against women is some sort of "epidemic" in your country. Are you going to have a favorably view of men? Are you going to protest to HELP men? No, you won't. That's the reality. Feminism utilizes illogical bigoted theories like this to instill misandry into the minds of many young women (and men). It is also for this VERY reason, why it is paramount for the MRM and any other anti-feminist movement to exist. Feminism is NEVER going to bother to solve/address men's actual problems. Feminism has been around for roughly 60 years and men's issues have only gotten WORST. Meanwhile, the hottest topics of modern feminism are 1) supposed "misogyny" in video games 2) rape jokes 3) pretending women who've had alcohol suddenly cannot consent to sex and 4) men taking up too much space on the bus.

Meanwhile... sexist divorce court laws (put into place by feminists) are ruining men's lives by the hundreds of thousands (if not millions), a prioritization of "violence against women" (instilled by feminists) is in place, male circumcision is completely legal and practiced daily in their own backyards, 94% of workplace deaths are male, male homelessness and male suicides are exponentially greater than their female counterparts, far less men are graduating college while there are still thousands of female-only scholarships and gynocentric incentives for women (instilled by feminists), etc etc etc

If feminists gave a shit, they would've done something about it rather than whining about non-issues and watering down the term "rape" and "misogyny" with their ever-expanding definitions (and let's not forget slandering men who actually give a shit about our issues "a bunch of whiny guys that cant get laid"). Unfortunately, they do NOT live up to their expectations of supporting "gender equality" and are little more than a woman's supremacy group.

GrantNexus · 2013-11-01T15:55:25+00:00

|I said no men's rights. She seemed confused

Solipsismic Maximonius!

ibegainin · 2013-11-01T14:05:01+00:00

The first feminist was ... pretty die hard feminist.

we went on a third date

Why?

Title	I've asked 3 feminists what a men's rights activist is. These were the responses. ..
Author	LDM312
Upvotes	45
Comments	50
Date	November 1, 2013 1:51 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1pnsw0/ive_asked_3_feminists_what_a_mens_rights_activist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/ive-asked-3-feminists-what-a-mens-rights-activist.1159913 https://theredarchive.com/post/1159913

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