"He Can Do It" - A great picture I ran across earlier this year for Father's Day.

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Sorry to disappoint you but if you rape a woman, you cannot legally force her to have your child. Unlike men, women have the ability to abort the fetus because they are biologically capable. Since men have no control over whether the mother carries the baby to term, it is their responsibility to use protection or only procreate with the acceptance of the responsibility that could possibly follow. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Are MRAs just pissed that women have a second option to abort and they don't and think it's some feminist conspiracy? Sorry to break it to you but we have dissimilar biological reproductive systems. I have the option of aborting a fetus, you do not. Thus, banking on a woman's decision to abort the fetus you carelessly helped create is stupid if you don't want to have a child and thus have to pay for that child. Is it unfair that women can choose not to have the baby once they are pregnant and men cannot? Sure. But you'll have to take it up with mother nature, not the law. True, men have more limited options. That is a biological limitation but it does not negate the fact that they do indeed have an option available to them. It's called safe sex. Learn it, use it and I hope you never make a child you are not ready for.

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Despite what XX and Hanna Rosin would have you believe men have been raising their own kids and working around the house since time immemorial. But nowadays, every snippy feminist with a blog wants to paint the narrative that women have replaced men as primary bread winner and have littered the internet with "rise of the SAHD" articles, in disbelief that men could actually handle the relatively low-stress job of raising kids. I've got several close friends that have been single Dad's for the vast majority of their children's lives because the Mother's were absolute dumpster fires at parenting. So when I see a father dolled up like Rosie the Riveter, in some kind of progressive, tongue & cheek nod to the idea that men are emasculated by raising their own kids and keeping order in their own house, I don't see the humor. What is offensive to me is the notion that men aren't already doing this because they are. Back to you and your involvement with this board. You do like to come on here and ruffle feathers, which leads me to believe you are the type of woman who also enjoys emasculating her boyfriend. Even if it means saying he looks like a guy with a beard, when he has no beard. That's why I'm calling you out on your ridiculous comment.

[–]SabineLavine 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course men are capable of taking care of children and running a household. I don't know any women who think otherwise. The fact that it's becoming more and more common for men to take a larger role in this area has been a big relief to a lot of women. It wasn't very long ago that we were expected to get married, pop out 2.5 kids, and stay home raising them...whether we wanted to be mothers or not. It's just what people did. And a man's worth was directly tied to his ability as a provider, which often meant he was not able to be involved in his children's lives the way fathers (good ones, anyway) are now. Those rigid gender roles were bad for everyone, IMO.

I agree with you that this meme is patronizing, but the vast majority of women I know think that men are very capable of raising kids and running a home. Like you, I know several dads who are either single parents, or they stay at home with their kids while their wives work. Attitudes are changing, maybe not fast enough, but we're getting there.

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The typical uninformed person would definitely think that. That's what uninformed people do. That's what makes this so noxious.

"Oh look, feminists think neither gender should be forced to conform to traditional gender roles. That's nice! Egalitarian even."

And the really nasty part of this is the underlying assumptions that it is not men's gender role to be involved fathers, either now or in the past. Congratulations, score another one for feminist demonizing of men, the propaganda worked. Not only have feminists furthered the notion that men make for horrible, incompetent parents, but they've pushed the very agenda that cuts men off from their kids through a wide variety of anti-male social programs, deprives men of reproductive rights (forced fatherhood, etc), and generally makes it so difficult for men to get more involved in their kids' lives. Talk about hypocrisy! It's like a KKK member in the deep south telling a news reporter that blacks are welcome in his town so long as they rid themselves of their "culture" of joblessness and crime.

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Try http://historyproject.ucdavis.edu/lessons/view_lesson.php?id=26 from an history website at an academic institution.

Also, this: http://www.brynmawr.edu/library/exhibits/suffrage/wwi.html

As per your special pleading about America, things were different but only in degree. American suffragists readily copied UK tactics. They embraced the war to gain support from the political establishment, just as UK suffragists did, and they promoted various substitutes and distractions to the issue of conscription. They pledged their willingness to do anything but serve in the military, even while accusing the government of hypocrisy in sending American men to fight for democracy overseas. Quite unsurprisingly, when Elizabeth Cady Stanton drafted the 19th amendment, there was no stipulation that women share equal citizenship requirements to go along with the right to vote. They certainly weren't trying to sell themselves on anything resembling real equality.

And here's just one of many " men's "activism" " takes on it: http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-do-mras-bring-up-the-draft/

Notable excerpts:

Men were not the only opponents of woman suffrage during the early twentieth-century, many women opposed gaining the right to vote. Molly Elliot Seawell shared her opposition to suffrage in The Ladies' Battle. 1911. What problems did Seawell predict would arise if women gained the right to vote?

....women voters would inevitably become a privileged class, their mere exemption from military and naval duty making them such. The first fundamental of our present form of government is, that there shall be no privileged classes among voters.... Already, the State of Washington, in adopting suffrage, has violated a principle of republican government, by exempting women from jury duty.....

Here is a wonderful little example showcasing the very special relationship feminists have with irony. In celebrating American suffragist's copying of UK suffragist's provocative strategies, a writer says

Hurried conferences behind closed doors! Summoning of the military to discuss declaring a military zone around the White House!... Closing the Woman's Party headquarters was discussed. Perhaps a raid! And all for what? Because women were holding banners asking for the precious principle at home that men were supposed to be dying for abroad.

American suffragists evading the issue of conscription:

The NAWSA, led by Catt, made the decision to link the idea of suffrage and the service of suffrage groups to women's work in war service. She wanted to create the public perception that suffragists were patriotic and hard workers for the country during the time of war. Catt hoped that by demonstrating women's practical skills and patriotism the government would reward women with the vote.

[+]sea_warrior 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

LOL, yeah, I posted from my phone so I guess the link was wonky.

I can't preempt your wanton ignorance by explaining it all.

LOL again. This means literally nothing - just an excuse to be insulting, without having to actually engage in debate. Once again, I said:

I'm not sure how being drafted necessarily relates to having the right to vote, as much more happens in this country than merely going to war

And I stand by that. You haven't made an argument for why being eligible for the draft should be the requirement for being able to vote. When we choose our elected officials, it's largely on the basis of their policy positions on domestic matters. And the American people don't decide whether or not we go to war - Congress does (or at least it's supposed to).

...any feminist in favor of the draft would be in favor of women being drafted alongside men. Feminists against women being drafted would likely be against the draft wholesale.

You haven't shown that this claim is untrue today. 100 years ago is 100 years ago. I am a feminist today, and I think that a) women can and should serve in combat roles, and b) if men can be drafted, so should women. I am telling you how I, an actual feminist, feels. Your straw version of a feminist, based on a 100-year-old model, has no place in this conversation.

Do you think those men who were able to avoid the draft should be unable to vote, or hold public office?

You didn't answer this question. I'm honestly curious.

So, in sum, you responded twice with a largely irrelevant block of MRA historical interpretation (read: whining) without actually addressing any of my points.

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The real issue, which is not addressed by this snark parody, is that fathers are being blockaded from their natural roles by mothers, feminists, and the full weight of governments.

Isn't that a perfect parallel for this image then?

Rosie the Riveter was all about giving women the chance to prove they could do work. Whether you believe they wanted to or not, they were similarly blockaded from such work, before. They did not have societal backing.

they disguise their real motives by portraying fatherhood as though it were men who need to overcome some intrinsically male limitations.

The image is not placing the weight or blame on any party (certainly Rosie did not blame women, so this does not blame men). Rather it calls for progress, changing the obviously misguided preconceptions about gender roles.

[–]dungone-1 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Rather it calls for progress, changing the obviously misguided preconceptions about gender roles.

It was a recruitment campaign during a labor shortage for temporary war jobs. It was about as much about progress as Tom Sawyer's fence painting was about job opportunities, with propaganda serving the same exact role to convince women that these jobs were cool and desirable. This work was the domain of plain-faced, unattractive girls who could not secure a good husband for themselves at a time when single men were already in short supply. They even recruited prostitutes into these roles after shutting down brothels. But they had to shut down the brothels first. That was the reality, not exactly the mythological feminist work ethic that Rosie the Riveter was invented to symbolize.

Isn't that a perfect parallel for this image then?

No, it's literally the polar opposite, for all of the reasons I mentioned.

Whether you believe they wanted to or not, they were similarly blockaded from such work, before.

No, they had to be enticed to do this type of work. They were never blocked, they had quit decades before.

The image is not placing the weight or blame on any party

Again, there is no legitimate parallel. Men do not need a propaganda campaign to entice them to become fathers, they are actually blocked from those roles. The very idea that they might be compelled to become fathers the way women had to be compelled to volunteer for war jobs is preposterous and betrays the underlying notion that there is something wrong with men. Women did need a propaganda campaign to take on those war jobs, they were not blocked but in short supply and high demand. The government and war contractors worked hard to entice women to take on these jobs, hence the recruitment campaign. They were not being blocked. In fact, women had quit from the manufacturing sector decades before. As soon as there were enough men with stable, gainful employment and women won the full legal rights not only to the children but to their husbands' incomes, it made no sense for women to do menial labor if they didn't have to. That is, quite frankly, what the original women's movement had fought for - the very thing the Suffragists had accomplished. It was what Prohibition was all about from women's perspectives, it was what the Tender Years doctrine was all about, and it was what the various laws were all about which gave women greater workplace protections than men had (which had the unfortunate consequence of making women an uneconomical choice for low wage work). Rosie the Riveter was a propaganda campaign, it was complete and utter fiction. And to add insult to injury the contributions that low status working class women made to the war effort were later usurped by rich upper class white feminists who built upon the heavily propagandized image of Rosie The Riveter.

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Title	"He Can Do It" - A great picture I ran across earlier this year for Father's Day.
Author	mongooseondaloose
Upvotes	312
Comments	105
Date	June 16, 2013 12:30 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gg92z/he_can_do_it_a_great_picture_i_ran_across_earlier/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/he-can-do-it-a-great-picture-i-ran-across-earlier.1171079 https://theredarchive.com/post/1171079

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