This sub and men's rights will never be taken seriously if members refuse to acknowledge women's issues and never put in question the content that is posted here.

Mitchell78 · 2019-01-10T16:48:41+00:00

So what you're saying is mens rights should pander more to feminists and the mainstream, hows that working out so far? No thanks.

genkernels · 2019-01-10T06:06:07+00:00

There is no way to control everyone, but the least we can do is disagree, challenge, or even ban people who are not interested in fighting for the right cause. Now, don't misinterpret what I am proposing. I am not saying that we should ban everyone that disagrees with me. We should ban everyone who refuses to provide adequate argumentation

Well that was a good laugh. Moving on...

The vast majority of commenters...This takes all credibility away from this movement

Completely aside from failing to bother to understand said commenters, here we have someone saying that anonymous commenters on the internet are going to ruin the credibility of a social movement.

I hope the mods realise that if this sub wants to be taken seriously, we need to behave properly keep this sub as a place for debate, news about men, and mostly a place where we seek the truth and fight for the right cause, not for our agenda.

Because "our agenda" is apparently deciding that a 16 year old who shot someone did something reprehensible, a decision which could only have been reached by mysogyny apparently.

And as per usual, the person talking about "us" and "our" is a person who has been with us an absolutely serendipitous amount of time: 14 comments and 25 karma on this subreddit.

--

As a side note:

we cannot help our cause by being hated by society.

Actually I think most people recognize, like him or not, that Paul Elam has been quite effective at helping the cause by putting up deliberately aggravating material in the past.

DubsPackage · 2019-01-10T06:24:26+00:00

I don't agree that "women's issues" need to be part of our discourse or our platform.
They'll take us plenty seriously if we withdraw our participation, our work, our talents and our money from their reality. Gynocentrism is welcome to sink or swim on its own and I encourage them to do that.
That being said, I don't mind some opposing voices, it gets boring when everyone agrees.
Just realize these people are not "us" they are antis and they should be treated like antis. If you have a solid argument then fine, let's hear it, just don't shit on the carpet.
Feminism and MRA are *NOT* "two sides of the same mirror", men and women are not on equal footing in society and never have been, women went from being treated like small children to being treated like teenagers, men went from being treated like adults to being treated like garbage. We didn't come from the same place and we're not in the same place now.
The average man is already hard-wired to treat women with EXTREME sympathy and extremely overprotective. This thread is proof of that. You will never see a thread called "feminism will never be taken seriously unless we give a fuck about the mens" on /r/Feminism or the like, if you make such a post you will get booted in minutes, mocked, possibly harassed. Only MEN make posts like this and alot of the guys nod. Men love women, women love children, children love puppies, it does not roll back the other way. So let's not start pretending that men in general are mean to women or too uncaring about their issues.
The core problem in society isn't that we don't care about "women's issues." The core problem in society is that is all society cares about, it literally cares about nothing else. That is called "the empathy gap." It's sort of like the pay gap except it's real.

tenchineuro · 2019-01-10T06:16:23+00:00

Why did the mods pin concern trolling?

Yes we should focus on women and women's issues and I do... On my own time on other subs. I don't go to r/athiesm to see posts about card games. I don't go to r/feminism to talk about men's rights (because they ban me for asking what equality means) and I don't come here to see stuff about women good or bad.

It's about the rights of men and boys...

2019-01-10T03:29:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

perplexedm · 2019-01-10T06:12:36+00:00

You referred the worst news for this topic so much so that you really look like a concern troll.

Seems mod stickied this post to assert how open and introspecting this sub is.

She was a thankless, under age prostitute who brutally murdered a good samaritan (kind of act unimaginable these days from a young man) who would have saved her life and even her future. More toxic than a poisonous snake. No amount of weaseling and smoothing is going to hide this fact. We all know it is not her fault that she became a prostitute at a minor age. But being a human being she should've known how to deal with people who do good for her, even animals know better.

She got release from jail only because of gender appeasement politics when thousands of men with far lesser crimes might be languishing in jail without any hope. Gender discrimination in legal system, undelivered justice and higher percentage punishments delivered at men, etc. are one if the primary concerns for which this itself sub stands.

The fact that you decided to take this story as a model to show this sub does not care about women rights itself smells suspicious. This is straight feminist modus operandi of bring out the tallest or most worst examples to force support and blame men for not being gullible enough.

May be they need her as leader for next women's march, but men here shouldn't care.

This sub seriously take women's and children's rights as equal as theirs and some times more than their's own. The reason why this thread got stickied.

Ted8367 · 2019-01-10T05:56:37+00:00

The OP is simply concern trolling. Evident from the first paragraph: we cannot help men around the world if we continue to have a terrible attitude. What's a "terrible attitude"? Well, we can't discuss that without displaying the said terrible attitude, so we'll just have to accept the OP's definition. In other words, it's a lead-in to the suppression of any discussion not to the OP's taste.

refuse to acknowledge when women are right, refuse to acknowledge when they face an issue,

Whether they are right or not, or what issues they face, is a subject for discussion. For a proper discussion, you need differing views.

never nuance their opinion, have no civility, and proceed to name call everyone who they disagree with.

I sort of agree with this, where it impedes discussion. However, the appeal for suppression then devolves to an argument about just what "civility" is, which itself can impede discussion. It's a value judgement, opinions may differ. This is where the mods need to display a balance.

If we want to be taken seriously and actually change things, we have to be right and have credibility.

Right. Any good concern trolling starts off with a kernel of truth. And then...

The [way] some supporters of the movement behave is plain wrong.

Oh yeah? Who defines "plain wrong", OP?

There is no way to control everyone, but

Finally, we get to it! It's all about controlling the discourse.

I am not saying that we should ban everyone that disagrees with me.

LOL

We should ban everyone who refuses to provide adequate argumentation

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I have to go and puke.

Nateplays855 · 2019-01-10T03:17:23+00:00

I personally think that having anything gender related in a movement makes the whole movement side with one gender. For the most part though we could be taken seriously if feminist ideas weren't force fed to children their whole lives. Don't hit girls should really be don't hit anyone there are plenty of other examples of women getting favoritism by teachers and other authority figures since we were children. Now that most of us are adults we still remember this so when a man gets abused nobody cares but with the genders are flipped all hell breaks loose. But just because women get a free ticket through family court and less jail time etc. Doesn't mean that they don't have issues just as we do. So yes keep in mind both genders have problems and we must be civil in discussing these issues no matter what.

2019-01-10T05:16:23+00:00

I don't refuse to acknowledge issues that women face when those issues are real and not first world rich white girl problems AND when those issues aren't one where men are completely ignored and underplayed as victims, such as DV/IPV, rape, harassment, victims of violence, etc.

2019-01-10T05:29:40+00:00

A good example is this post. The vast majority of commenters decided to side against this woman just because she is a woman and is facing injustice.

Excuse me? She's facing injustice?

Feminists don't play by the rules you're endorsing. Pointing out examples of them acting hypocritically simply does not affect them or their positions. They don't care about the truth, and they won't acknowledge it when you speak it if it doesn't benefit them. It doesn't matter if you acknowledge a few of their issues before you attempt this, they simply don't want to give male grievances any airtime. They call that mansplaining.

What you're saying isn't some revolutionary novel idea - you think you're the only person here who wants equality? Lol. Dude. Feminists do not want equality. They don't care if you're civil, in fact, it pisses them off. They attribute civility to male keyboard warrior know-it-allism. It's a meme to them. Dissembling or admitting they have issues too does NOTHING to improve our credibility. We KNOW they have issues too, issues unique to women that men don't experience. Acknowledging that has done NOTHING for MRAs because feminists aren't receptive to olive branches like that. They DO NOT want equality with men, they want an eternal scapegoat stained with the incurable original sin of male privilege.

killcat · 2019-01-11T02:47:57+00:00

I saw a video on Youtube a while back that covered the issue in an interesting way, it was looking at why monogamy was so fleeting (relative to modern humans existence) and how the state of the world alters female mate selection (of males). One aspect covered was the rise of feminism, and how that occurred initially in "rich white women" and only progressed after the sixties and in direct response to industrialization. The rise in "non-monogamous" women and a return to women seeking out Alpha's was a direct result of the stability and ability of the state to support women and their children.

The current state of feminism is a direct result of this, and arises from the same basis, women prioritizing their and their children's needs, a small group has co-opted this drive to gain power, power at the cost of men. The reason that modern day feminism is so toxic is that it's a naked power grab, to control society for the benefit of women and THEIR children, they don't care about the truth, or facts, they ONLY care about the goal. So while I can and will acknowledge real issues for women, in the Western world they are few and far between, which is why almost all of their goals now are about POWER.

tenchineuro · 2019-01-10T21:14:09+00:00

I think everyone here can agree that men face inequality, discrimination, injustice and more. We can also all agree that it is in our best interest to gain the public's approval to make progress in the issues that concern us. However, we cannot help men around the world if we continue to have a terrible attitude. A big part of the people who support this movement and participate in this sub refuse to acknowledge when women are right, refuse to acknowledge when they face an issue, never nuance their opinion, have no civility, and proceed to name call everyone who they disagree with.

We get a lot of feminists posting here about how we are doing everything all wrong. In fact, we've missed the weekly dressing down for the last few weeks, but it was inevitable that another was down the line.

A good example is this post. The vast majority of commenters decided to side against this woman just because she is a woman and is facing injustice.

So I take it that committing cold blooded murder to commit a robbery is an injustice she is facing. No doubt the murdered man deserved it right? She was the victim, we know, thanx for the update.

If we want to be taken seriously and actually change things, we have to be right and have credibility.

Being right never changed anything
Being an MRA in and of itself robs you of any potential credibility

You're new to this ain't ya.

We would like feminists to also be able to point out when extremist supporters are wrong, so we have to do it ourselves.

There is no such thing as an extremist feminist, and if you think you can find feminists (or even women) who object to even the worst misandry, you have not been asking questions or paying attention. A few women (literally, you can count them on your fingers) have objected to feminists sexism and been thrown out of the movement, the latest being Cassie Jaye. Actually she was thrown out for just announcing that she was gonna do a documentary on MRAs.

There is no way to control everyone, but the least we can do is disagree, challenge, or even ban people who are not interested in fighting for the right cause.

So then r\feminism should be our model, thanx for the tip.

I hope you, people who find that men face injustice, realise that supporters of our movements act like children, society will never be interested in even hearing our arguments.

Acting like children never hurt feminism any, but let me fix that for you...

I hope you, people who find that men face injustice, realize that if supporters of our movements is about supporting men, society will never be interested in even hearing our arguments.

That's the crux of it. Karen S has posted that by the very act of asking for help, men forfeit any right to it. The problem is not what we say or how we act, many men more eloquent and better spoken than myself have argued their case for decades on other forums, and accomplished absolutely nothing. The blocker is that we are men. That's it.

For the most part, it looks like you think we should become r\Menslib, but it already exists and the men's auxiliary of r\feminism has also accomplished zip, but they'll ban you in a second, if you like that kind of stuff Menslib may be more to your liking.

goodmod · 2019-01-10T04:19:50+00:00

This is a topic that needs to be raised.

MensRights is in danger of becoming an echo chamber - or even worse, a place where issues are decided on the basis of whether someone is male or female.

We need to allow dissent because that is what will keep us honest as a real human rights movement. Otherwise, we risk degenerating into a mere gender advocacy group, just like feminists.

This thread is about general issues, and not any specific case. Any high-profile, controversial legal cases should be discussed in the relevant threads. Off-topic comments debating those issues may be removed.

hkl8324 · 2019-01-10T06:24:59+00:00

Feminism is a world wide ehco chamber, stun the fuck up already

2019-01-10T10:12:14+00:00

LOL! I stopped reading when you described as a victim the girl who shot a guy in the back of the head, robbed him, and then fled -- in HIS car!

Next troll, please!

furchfur · 2019-01-10T12:59:04+00:00

Do not agree with the OP at all.

We are having a few small successes.

I think there is a concern that the MRM cannot be tamed. Hence the attempt to

bring the MRM to heal.

Western society cannot and will not continue with the current blatant discrimination against men.

Men are not having relationships with women and couples are not having children. Japan is 10 years further down the line than USA and Europe.

Do not fall for the OP rhetoric.

Career women cannot find male partners. Men are giving up on having a long term partner and family.

Demographically western feminist culture is finished.

DavidByron2 · 2019-01-10T18:51:39+00:00

Do you even know anything about the case you linked to? You come across as a know-nothing idiot.

Maybe I should write an article telling you what you need to do to be taken seriously? You'd have more credibility if you read around a topic before sounding off and ranting about it. Lose the tone. Don't act like such an ass. If you know you don't know much about an issue tread carefully. Don't be arrogant and lecture people who have more experience and know more. If you want to contest a fact provide evidence. if you make an accusation about tone or whatever, at the very least provide a link to the incident or an example of it. And if you're going to make a statement saying women "have issues" give an example -because most people can't think of any.

azazelcrowley · 2019-01-10T22:29:40+00:00

It's been 60 years. You cannot force people to change their mind if they are intent on fucking you over and gaslighting you by constantly demanding you disarm while arming themselves.

2019-01-10T03:41:29+00:00

[permanently deleted]

1LegendaryWombat · 2019-01-10T09:28:05+00:00

I think much more than two things can happen, i think what is likely to happen is this:
People will do what they think is right, all we can do is make people think and consider, hopefully without prejudice.

Now the prostitute issue is murky, hopefully the legal system will sort it out. But because of the situation, it is very emotionally provoking. Me, i have no idea, its why i didn't comment. It just seems like a bunch of shit for everyone. I lean on the side that if you can avoid it, do not commit murder, but i am an outsider to the situation.

But i also know that you swap the genders, a man would be treated harsher, which is wrong.

One I am not sure of, the other i am sure of, so i talk about what i believe and know.

mikesteane · 2019-01-10T07:41:51+00:00

The only change we need to make is to stop downvoting opinions we don't like, because not only does the opinion become less visible, but so do replies to it. For example, goodmod's comment stickied at the top of this thread, with a hidden score, was very effectively answered by u/oneiorosgripwontsfu.

It also happens that people posting unpopular opinions here are not given the chance to expose the weaknesses in their own cases.

For instance on a post about an innocent man's two years of Hell I quoted the statement about him being interviewed voluntarily without a solicitor and said "Never do that."

This was taken up by a redditor (u/The_Pringles_Man) believably claiming to be a policeman and arguing that it is a good idea to be interviewed voluntarily. During our argument, he inadvertently gave very good reason for not cooperating with the police by doing all of the following: 1. Disputing the credibility of a personal experience I cited and about which he has no knowledge 2. misrepresenting my words 3. making a big issue of two irrelevancies (an alleged ambiguity in my comment and a single spelling error) 4. misrepresenting statistics and 5. trying to browbeat me into submission.

My takeaway was that his aggressive and manipulative argumentation was a very good reason not to have faith in the police reporting the information obtained in an interview in a fair manner. To me the discussion was a very clear demonstration of why people should not talk to the police without a lawyer present. It certainly hardened my previously moderate attitude on this matter.

Unfortunately hardly anyone would have read it, because his comments in the early part of the discussion were heavily voted down.

tenchineuro · 2019-01-10T13:54:42+00:00

There's a gender war.

Pick the side you're on.

lostapwbm · 2019-01-10T12:17:38+00:00

r/MensLib is over that way.

There is no way to control everyone, but the least we can do is disagree, challenge, or even ban people who are not interested in fighting for the right cause.

Why does the idea of 'controlling everyone' even interest you? And what is the 'right cause'? I already know the answer: Gynocentrism.

Backseat modding is no way to go through life.

We should ban everyone who refuses to provide adequate argumentation...

A good example is this post. The vast majority of commenters decided to side against this woman just because she is a woman and is facing injustice.

Interesting. The TOP comment from the thread in question:

A 16 year old with FAS who was basically a drugged sex slave for human garbage who used her to rob people. Anyone who knows 16 year old girls knows that they are stupid, irrational, impressionable children.

This is a failure of society on so many levels, this girl would not have committed this murder if she weren't exposed to so many fucked up situations while still a child.

Her mother who drank while she was pregnant and didn't give her a stable upbringing. A hypocritical moralistic society that prefers to sweep prostitution under the rug instead of legalizing it and regulating it to keep the girls safe. An evil pimp who fed her drugs and raped her.

She never had a chance, never knew what a normal life looked like.

And this guy ends up paying the ultimate price for society's failure and then has his name dragged through the mud because of America's obsession with simplistic A vs B manufactured controversies. Because they can't face the fact that this happened not as a result of an evil greedy underage prostitute, or an evil abusive john, but a society that lets masses of people fall and doesn't pick them up.

This is a fucked up story among millions of fucked up stories and everyone loses in the end except the media parasites.

By your own standard, YOU should be banned from this sub for failing to provide adequate argumentation in support of the (false) conclusion you presented in your own post.

Miss me with all of this 'Dear Fellow Men' schtick.

goldmedalflower · 2019-01-10T12:55:09+00:00

I think everyone here can agree that men face inequality, discrimination, injustice and more.

Feminists adamantly disagree with this statement. To the (only) extent they acknowledge men's issues is it always within the context of men themselves being "toxic", "fragile", or lazy, etc. Girls are struggling in STEM? Systemic oppression. Boys are struggling in everything else? Those boys need to step up and stop being so lazy.

Perhaps you should address this point about "at least acknowledge the other side" to feminists?

The_Pringles_Man · 2019-01-10T13:04:01+00:00

I'd agree with you.

I've been using this sub for a few days now and I notice there's some users who are downright toxic, and there are plenty of comments which are frankly - inappropriate. I think it's easy to get into a bit of an echo chamber - but people need to step back and try and be a bit less emotional and a bit more rational. Some of the comments don't paint the sub in a good light at all.

I think a good rule of thumb is for users to look at their comments and think Would I be happy with it being splashed over the front pages of my local newspaper? Would I be able to defend it? and also to consider If this was 'the other side' making this comment about me - what would I think? You can disagree with someone/something and do so firmly and robustly without being a dick about it.

progunner420 · 2019-01-10T12:58:33+00:00

I guess a goal of this subreddit is to be the opposite of r/feminism and have goals, one of which is being inclusive and tolerant. But that doesn’t deter people looking solely for men’s issues and nothing else.

NowlmAlwaysSmiling · 2019-01-10T03:30:56+00:00

Hear, Hear!

cld8 · 2019-01-10T03:03:08+00:00

Well said.

divers69 · 2019-01-10T11:37:47+00:00

Spot on. All groups develop blind spots, and those of us concerned with mens issues are no different. We risk ending up like the man who only has a hammer, who treats the whole world like a nail.

We have to avoid the simplistic bigotry that is often present in modern feminist opinions.

Comments