I find it so insanely frustrating to hear women say "That's not real feminism"

cld8 · 2021-04-13T07:51:04+00:00

(This is copied from another Reddit comment)

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

No...You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

mikesteane · 2021-04-13T00:08:28+00:00

If feminism aims at equality, then it assumes that women have things worse to start with. This is inherently problematic and leads inevitably inventing false narratives, blaming men for everything, hating men and all the things those feminists who are "not real" do. The philosophy with its assumption that women are oppressed cannot separate itself from the malicious expressions of that view.

This is entirely different from blaming men for the independent actions of a few.

There is a second difference and it is that being a feminist is a choice, being a man is not.

Reasonable_Feed1615 · 2021-04-13T07:03:25+00:00

The good ol' no true scotsman fallacy

"We are about equality!"

"Ok how about those misandrists who are feminists?"

"We feminists want equality and if they don't they're not a feminists"

It lets you completely ignore the actions of members of your group and focus on the idealistic representation of your group rather than the reality of the situation. Really popular defense when the group is extremely toxic but want to maintain a friendly face.

FriedwaldLeben · 2021-04-13T06:25:21+00:00

i find it genuinely hilarious that feminists (in one sentence!!!) claim that all mens rights movements are evil because of the tiny proportion of "nazis" but also that feminism is still good despite a huge proportion of feminists openly admitting that they want to bring men down, kill men, dont care about mens issues or just straight up ignore equality and say that wmen deserve beeter than men...

"a single rotten apple spoils the bunch unless it is in my group, then those are just harmless fringe elements"

-feminists, 2021

Famous-Beautiful-731 · 2021-04-12T23:19:34+00:00

The other issue is that these "few" feminist seem to make all of the laws in the Western world.

We know for a fact that college campuses discriminate against men. They do so openly and when Betsy Devos ordered them to stop it the Biden administration reversed the position as soon as they came into power.

It's more then just #MenAreTrash and #KillAllMen on social meda. These so called "not real feminist" hold a huge amount of political and social power. Unless feminist are going to do something to take that away from then then they are complict in the systemic mistreatment of men.

iainmf · 2021-04-13T10:15:08+00:00

I think we should use people's preferred nouns.

If people call themselves feminists I am going to respect that.

What right does anyone else have to say who is and who isn't a feminist?

Feminismist · 2021-04-13T04:50:05+00:00

May i use this to explain to my mother how men can be oppressed and ARE being oppressed?

AdikaHUN0328 · 2021-04-13T06:07:31+00:00

This is the reason i like MRA we don't just say to our radicals that they are not real part of the movement and stuff, we made them radicals, we take the blame, but at the same time we shame them and try to help them.

And also, i have no problem with feminism only caring about women, until it does not want to opress men, ofcourse it does tho. Just as MRA mostly cares about man, we need a ying yang, feminism and MRA in the same strength, so we can keep stuff in balance, this is the same with everything, you can't have a soceity with only conservatives or with only liberals, both are needed in different times to keep up a balance.

zeerust2000 · 2021-04-13T07:23:46+00:00

The feminist equivalent of "Not all men.....".

Input_output_error · 2021-04-13T09:22:48+00:00

Mainly, because I want to find a reasonable, not angry way to dispute this point with feminists without bringing attention to #notallmen. Because that seems to immediately discredit me in even more reasonable feminist circles.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but there isn't such a thing as 'reasonable' feminist. People that drank the feminist Kool-aid are beyond a point of reasonable discussion. All of them believe in the mythical 'patriarchy' that is there to keep women down. Nothing is ever their fault and no concessions should ever be made by them.

The problem with feminism is that their theories are more religious in nature then they are scientific. Their 'papers' are often riddled with improper use of statistics or flat out false (cherry picked) data. All of their 'studies' are ideologically driven and to no ones wonder every last one of these studies 'proves' that men are responsible for their woe's. It really isn't any different than the Catholic church seeing 'proof that God exists' in rainbows because they are so pretty and perfect and only God could possibly make something like that.

There is no point in discussing religion with zealots, the only thing you can do is mock their obvious transgressions in the hope that they can recognize their own cognitive dissonance.

tenchineuro · 2021-04-13T03:00:42+00:00

And I genuinely feel like the only way we have any space to move forward is with respectful debate.

Wow, it's totally amazing that in all these years, you're the first one to think of this and it's also amazing that no man has ever even tried. /s

jeff_the_nurse · 2021-04-13T11:12:22+00:00

That says it all right there. It’s more important for these women to get snotty with men who point out these misandrists than it is to tell these women that they’re not being real feminists.

Vinterblad · 2021-04-13T12:05:21+00:00

Whenever I point at a feminist rhetoric and a feminist pulls the "that's not real feminism" card I tell them: 'I can get you a lust with a list with a lot of names of famous feminists. Maybe you're right. I would be happy to agree with you when you have mailed all those feminist and they have agreed too. I look forward to them backing down and acknowledging that YOU are the sole gatekeeper to feminism.'

ImplodedPotatoSalad · 2021-04-13T13:16:58+00:00

if she goes that direction, she is just a part of the problem.

LateralThinker13 · 2021-04-13T14:31:06+00:00

Feminists never debate because cults never engage rationally and fairly. They can't.

BornRetarded · 2021-04-13T18:01:16+00:00

Have you seen the new Shell Oil commercial making the rounds on youtube? It uses that corporate stick figure art style and is all about Shell's commitment to Net Zero. Big Oil has some big ideas about global warming. Is that "not real environmentalism"? You're a chump if you think you're the one setting the political agenda. Same goes for any feminist who isn't personally in favor of circumcision. Big deal.

__pulsar · 2021-04-13T18:17:53+00:00

Mainly, because I want to find a reasonable, not angry way to dispute this point with feminists without bringing attention to #notallmen. Because that seems to immediately discredit me in even more reasonable feminist circles.

Using logic when dealing with cult members rarely works.

I'm not saying that all feminists are cult members, but the ones you describe definitely are.

2021-04-13T23:42:07+00:00

Everything they say is (quite primitive) propaganda. Filter it out like background noise.

OSRS_Antic · 2021-04-13T06:57:09+00:00

I think you make a very valid point, each group is at risk of corruption, or to have individuals using the group label in bad faith.

My personal view is that these communities are stuck in the following cycle; a vocal subgroup in group A voices criticism about a vocal subgroup of group B, which generalises to bring a point across. The members of group B that aren't part of said subgroup feel wrongfully judged/accused, voice their criticism of group A, which in reality is aimed at a vocal subgroup within A. Now members of group A that weren't part of the criticised subgroup feel wrongfully judged/accused, decide to speak up, the cycle continues.

I realise this statement too is oversimplified and that each scenario has its contexts and nuances, but this is what I see happening to a certain degree from both "sides".

The only way we can break out of this is if we (and by we I mean both sides):

Stop attributing characteristics/actions of individuals IRL/on social media to the supposed group they belong. Every side has their bad apples, every side has a majority of good apples (or so I choose to believe).
Stop investing our energy in pointing fingers at the bad apples in the other basket and instead invest our efforts into addressing our own bad apples, because it is highly likely that said bad apples on either side aren't the ones responsive to being addressed by the other side. Each side has to be able to acknowledge the fact that bad apples in their own basket exist, and these truly bad apples contribute to the struggle the other side perceives in their life.
Come to terms with the fact that despite our best efforts, some bad apples might not be responsive to being addressed even when it happens from within their own group. This does NOT mean they shouldn't be held accountable. Each individual has however the right to distance themselves from these bad apples, even if to the other group they might be perceived as part of the same group.

Someone claims that they are a feminist but does "unfeminist" things, isn't a feminist and other feminists shouldn't be judged for their actions. Someone that claims they are an MRA but does "unMRA" things, isn't an MRA and other MRAs shouldn't be judged for their actions.

TLDR; judge individuals based on their individual words/actions, and be able to acknowledge your own and the other person's hardships. Those don't invalidate each other, neither are they some kind of competition of who has it worse.

maxlvb · 2021-04-12T23:31:06+00:00

Why do you want to discuss what is or what isn't feminism according to some feminists in r/mens rights????

Feminism is feminism. A mouse is still a mouse even when it's black, white, brown, piebald...

If feminists want to argue amongst themselves what is or isn't feminism let them, why should r/mensrights care about their infighting?

And no your token sentence at the end that it might happen to 'our movement' (whatever that's supposed to mean) doesn't really cut it. IMHO

DraganTehPro · 2021-04-13T12:41:59+00:00

Because it makes me worried that our same movement will be corrupted in the same way.

It might have started. There was a comment on another thread that said something like "help only people you know and men, women and children are not worth the risk" and i replied "that's a bit unfair, just because some women are ungrateful pieces of crap doesn't mean we should stop helping women" ; got 37 downvotes so far.

Apparently saying "let's not be sexist" is a bad thing.

ObviousObservationz · 2021-04-12T23:36:25+00:00

Right. No one should be judged by a small portion of their group. Men shouldn't be judged by rapists and feminism shouldn't be judged by a 'kill all men' hashtag.

Both groups are mostly good people.

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2021-04-13T02:06:30+00:00

Let's try some NVC:

I'm hearing that you are feeling most frustrated because your need for connection is not being met.

Is that right?

GraemeRed · 2021-04-13T06:27:34+00:00

So the danger with MensRights is for this to become a binary game. I think this is missing the point entirely. Some men are over the top MensRights idiots and are the same as the over the top feminist idiots. And I can say that those men are doing harm to the goal of equality because they want to create a binary us or them game. To make a difference we all need to come to the middle. If you listen to what woman are saying, there is truth, and we need to listen. It's the same from women, they need to be able to listen to men, because there is truth to what we are saying. But to get anyone to listen is hard enough, but if you want to fight about who is hardest done by, then, NOBODY listens.

Stoicism1981 · 2021-04-13T12:02:31+00:00

If you gather all self claimed feminists and lock them in one room for a day, you will be lucky to see two still alive at the end of the day.

Too many streams.. honestly, like the coronavirus and flu ..

dr_pepper02 · 2021-04-14T12:44:09+00:00

It’s just a way out, a way to dodge responsibility for anything they do.

Title	I find it so insanely frustrating to hear women say "That's not real feminism"
Author	ripyourlungsdave
Upvotes	142
Comments	122
Date	April 12, 2021 11:15 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/mppw05/i_find_it_so_insanely_frustrating_to_hear_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-find-it-so-insanely-frustrating-to-hear-women.1188705 https://theredarchive.com/post/1188705

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