The left isn't woke enough to accept men's rights

mtcapri · 2019-10-19T16:26:08+00:00

I think a lot of people here would agree with your thoughts here (I know I do). We're a leftist sub, but being an MR sub, that puts us in a position wherein we're critical of a lot of leftist politics surrounding gender. The purpose of the sub—in part—is to create a space where leftists feel more comfortable talking about men's issues and criticizing feminism without feeling they're partaking in an "alt-right" sub (which /r/mensrights is not, but it is cast that way in the mainstream and it does attract a fair amount of conservative users).

Thank you for the post. I encourage you to participate further and continue trying to get leftists to be more empathetic to men!

simpleisideal · 2019-10-19T23:22:50+00:00

A recent blatant example probably worth noting is the cognitive dissonance that certain factions of feminists exhibited when progressive Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (and most of "The Squad") endorsed old white dude Bernie Sanders instead of Elizabeth Warren. Politically speaking it was clearly the right thing to do since he played a big role in AOC's political career and they share very similar views, but that's beside the point. We were left with this:

https://i.imgur.com/D7LaQ16.jpg (she deleted this shortly after)

Krystal Ball: White feminist meltdown over AOC's Bernie endorsement

Don't Tell AOC, Ilhan Omar, and Rashida Tlaib Their Bernie Endorsement Isn't Feminist

Most people on this sub already know this, but Bernie has spent decades being ahead of the curve promoting LGBTQ rights, civil rights, etc. Also men's rights (though we never hear that term) in the form of worker's rights and recognizing "diseases of despair" like opiate/alcohol addition and suicide, and their root causes.

Instead of trying to compute some complicated hierarchy of intersectional oppression points, it's far more efficient to prioritize fighting for humans in general. Anything else will be co-opted by monied interests like we've seen for some time now. People far enough left to support Bernie understand this, and actually a lot of people in the middle or right who have atrophied from the idpol game do as well. It's the liberals in between that seem to need the most guidance with this.

wordsarething · 2019-10-19T16:45:33+00:00

I support this effort to show the spectrum of Men’s rights groups. The public seems to perceive us as connected to the alt right or mgtow. That made me very skeptical to dive further down this rabbit hole.

mewacketergi · 2019-10-19T17:32:59+00:00

You are most welcome! Live long and prosper.

Edit:

We had a black lives matter movement, not a black men's lives matter movement, or even a men's lives matter movement, even though this is an issues that effects both race, and gender (with black men facing both racism and sexism, and with white men arguably doing worse than black women when it comes to these issues).

I think you hit the nail on the head here!

The feminist ideology is left free to define what "gender equality" means in practice, and then later they conduct these mass baptisms, asking auditoriums full of young people, "If you support equality, then you are a feminist!" since what kind of awful person doesn't support equality, while conveniently leaving out the bits about how support for their definition of "equality" translates into support for the vile ideas about how "men can't be discriminated against" and how "fathers rights is not an issue of discrimination, because there is no issue of access to resources there", and all the goddamn nonsense with quotas and affirmative discrimination.

Aaod · 2019-10-19T17:07:01+00:00

Despite what leftists claim their discourse is far from nuanced. They have simply chosen certain attributes and claim they give those having it all encompassing privileges with no disadvantages, even if reality doesn't support that claim.

For example, I remember watching the events of Evergreen take place.

(In essence; an American hippy/shitlib college got taken over by student-activists because a white teacher refused to leave on a day designated to white people removing themselves from the college grounds. A reversial of a day where black people removed themselves from the institution so show how integral they are to it. The contention was the 'involuntary' part in the white version, where the black day of absence was voluntarily .)

Some black chick in one of the open protest began lecturing the white students about how they don't have to fear police, if they would show up and how black people would be the only victims.

Now that is a lie... Well: half a lie: Black women are shot drastically less than white men, for example. So she stood there and lectured white men on how good they had it on a particular subject when in fact she had it much better, at least directly so (black women loose their sons, brothers, fathers, etc.). Black women barely have it worse than even white women, if you'd notice. It literally an iota of difference. There is also the matter of the gender sentencing gap, which to my knowledge (in the U-S of A) is something like six times larger than the race gap. Naturally, since they focus so much on the latter the former should recieve at the very least the same attention. And yet, it goes unacknowledged by the people claiming to fight for eqaulity.

(Of course, I realise that counterpoints about men being more violent being a factor in the way police handle them, but if I (and the rest of us) have to labor under the claim of complete equality then so should they. The same arguments against men is after all made against blacks. Something has to give to make sense on the issue.)

They--evidently--have to re-evaluate some value points in their intersectional math (in certain areas), but in doing so it loses some of its bite against their opponents; its political/moral edge become dull. So that won't happen. It will be harder for certain groups to leverage their victimhood for both social and financial goods, and fueling righteous anger, if it is build on a falsehood.

It's much easier and beneficial for them to simply say black + women = Double Oppression, than recognize some disadvantage to being a man, or even white in--for example--american affirmative action in higher education. It is, ironic enough, a case of prejudice. They have already made up their minds on the issue, on groups of people, and so disgards evidence that goes against their worldview.

With all this I don't mean to partake in the victim olympics, but I always want truth. Always. I suggest more try to dig through the claims their side makes, because truth is a good by definition. And arguments made with lies weakens it immensely.

There is just a great deal of what my people call 'berøringsangst' (fear of touch) with regards to leftists and certain issues (Gender/sex, race, immigration, being the main ones).

There is a party-line and you better toe it, or get thrown out. Questions themselves are proof of nefarious intentions and people pick up on that, quick. This social atmosphere over time of course leads to zealously because no one dares to speak up and against the movement and ever more radical people takes control. The aformentioned Evergreen take over by students being a prime case of this happening in real life, and not just on online forums.

dontpet · 2019-10-19T19:09:34+00:00

That empathy gap is huge. I notice at a structural level there are barriers as well.

I run one of the rare not for profits that has the goal of happy healthy men. I was at a suicide conference this week where our local government was consulting about the suicide intervention policy.

After seeing the whole layout I sit up and pointed out that none of the current working parties and projects would much for men.

There was general agreement from the crowd, and thanks from many to me in the interval.

After 90 minutes of breakout groups there were 20 points emerging from the outcomes. One of those was about men.

My feedback to the group when I did speak was that of those present, none of them beyond my agency care for a majority male population. I corrected myself at that point and noted that the police and coroner did deal predominantly with men.

The rest care. But it isn't their job.

azazelcrowley · 2019-10-19T17:20:33+00:00

I think they are, but they're struggling with rationalizing how to both be a positive force for both women and men's rights and keep feminist ideology around. We're witnessing the kind of rationalizing and denial the left used to get over the Soviets and so on. We're more like the left opposition slowly pointing out how it's a fucking mess and we shouldn't be associated with it.

The key is to force the point where they admit that feminism has to go by keeping up the pressure and keep highlighting the injustices.

lbgravy · 2019-10-19T17:10:59+00:00

This problem isn't unnoticed on the Left. I think that's the idea behind this sub. I've noticed even Anarchists are getting pissed at the selective idpol nonsense and just the sheer insanity of it all. Mostly anywhere there isn't a centrist liberal echo-chamber of thought people are tired of participating in their government representatives' political theater and the infighting between corporate donors.

I'm sorry to say that I don't think we'll get through to these people. The problem is liberals have soooooooo much money. And they just jam it into every one of these individual movements to contain radical groups that are potentially harmful to them, divide and conquer the Left, and ultimately expand their market share. They're in academia, lobbyists, etc. The CIA even helped out Feminists through liberal AND conservative funded propaganda operations. I don't think we could ever compete with that running start. They have the personnel, time, money and expertise on their side.

It's going to be a super slow process to bring them around. They just have to keep losing to people like Trump to see that what they do isn't working. You can't appeal to them directly. They're stuck in the Matrix. They have to think it was their idea.

Aaod · 2019-10-19T16:34:40+00:00

The general conclusion I came to is they won't accept no war but class war and also won't accept that they are racist against white people and treat men like shit. It has gotten so bad their outgroup preference is now greater than conservatives racist in group bias which really blew my mind.

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/284875/americas-white-saviors

As long as they are on top or their pet group is they don't give a fuck because they don't understand their should not be a top in the first place! Their is a quote from Thomas Sowell that I like despite disagreeing with him on basically everything else.

https://imgur.com/a/3IjlrfH

The galling part is then leftist and socialists wonder why men especially white men refuse to join them despite previously leading the revolution forward.

WhoTheFuckAreYoo · 2019-10-19T23:38:51+00:00

Did you just say that with regards to sexism and racism, white men have it harder than black women? Or did I read that wrong?

Blauwpetje · 2019-10-20T11:02:09+00:00

'Woke' is the problem. Woke is a religious word. 'Woke' is all of a sudden seeing how the whole world is a construction of 'oppressions' reinforcing eachother and making eachothers judgment more complicated. To get 'men' somewhere in this pyramid of oppressions would be at best useful to tear the whole pyramid down (the logic of it all would crumble and the pyramid would look like a drawing by MC Escher), but I prefer not to see the world that way. Not because oppression is absent, it is not, but because social systems are a lot more complicated than that.

Egalitarianwhistle · 2019-10-21T22:22:27+00:00

I've seen this argument over who has more rights and it looks clear to me that there are distinct rights spelled out for women that men dont have and when you try to point this out, it is written off as "biological" differences. But it doesn't change the fact that women have actually more rights in the Western world.

They are too stuck on the Apex fallacy. More men are senators and presidents. Feminists will continue to stomp on the bottom 60% of men to attain equality with the top ten percent.

Melthengylf · 2019-10-22T18:25:59+00:00

I agree!!! That BLM movement, well, they arr black men the ones dying!!!

They would quite blame the fact that the black MEN are the ones dying on toxic masculinity. This is a HUGE victim blaming, as if dying was their fault.

2019-10-19T21:50:47+00:00

It would be far better to stop pitching to various interest-groups and simply push for males and ignore the rest, based on a sound ideology and a constructive approach. Whoever wants to support that can, and more than likely you'll get support from reasonable people.

Profiling this sub toward minority interests makes me less interested in it automatically.

ausgamer529 · 2019-10-20T21:40:00+00:00

Even if men were a minority and women vastly outnumbered us the left wouldn't give a shit about men.

TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK · 2019-10-19T18:47:14+00:00

What specific rights do you think men lack?

Title	The left isn't woke enough to accept men's rights
Author	Oncefa2
Upvotes	44
Comments	96
Date	October 19, 2019 2:39 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/dk4ler/the_left_isnt_woke_enough_to_accept_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/the-left-isnt-woke-enough-to-accept-mens-rights.1203354 https://theredarchive.com/post/1203354

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