Exactly what they asked for.

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They cannot. That is illegal as well.

Also, just because I can give up a child for adoption does not mean I’m suddenly free of consequences of a pregnancy.

It’s still poses a danger to my life. It’s still causes major bodily altercations to me. It’s still several months of severe hormonal changes and stress and pain. It’s still a painful medical procedure to give birth that could result in tearing, nerve end damages, weeks to months worth of recuperation, and even death.

It’s also the fact that maybe I can’t afford a child. Maybe I would like one but can’t afford one right now. Maybe I want to get an abortion before the fetus becomes a baby and I become attached. An abortion is a horrible thing to go through. Giving up a child you love because you can’t afford to care for it is even harder.

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

And I imagine if they can afford it they can still go cross-state and get an abortion.

They cannot. That is illegal as well.

I have not read the text of the new law, and I'm not convinced it says that. But I'm not sure a law like that would survive a legal challenge. It's prefectly legal to drink when you cross the state line from a dry state to a wet state, to buy a firearm (although it may be illegal to being it back) or to do anything legal in the state you happen to be in. Actually according to NPR this morning some speculate that the intent of the law was to fail a SC challenge, but YMMV.

It’s still poses a danger to my life.

So does driving, in fact driving is very much more dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
For 2016 specifically, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) data shows 37,461 people were killed in 34,436 motor vehicle crashes, an average of 102 per day. In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 crashes, 30,296 deadly, killing 32,999, and injuring 2,239,000.
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/pregnancy-relatedmortality.htm
The death of a woman during pregnancy, at delivery, or soon after delivery is a tragedy for her family and for society as a whole. Sadly, about 700 women die each year in the United States as a result of pregnancy or delivery complications.

I take it out of concern for your life you don't drive or use public transportation and stay off roads. Let's see, 37,461/700 = 52.5, so driving is ~50x more deadly, and this does not account for injuries.

It’s still causes major bodily altercations to me.

Unlike things like growing up, exercise, sloth, a bad diet or a good diet.

It’s still several months of severe hormonal changes and stress and pain. It’s still a painful medical procedure to give birth that could result in tearing, nerve end damages, weeks to months worth of recuperation, and even death.

It sounds like me that you are ill prepared for life. Let me give you a clue, you're not gonna get out of this life alive.

So are you a virgin?

It’s also the fact that maybe I can’t afford a child.

The State has thousands of 3-letter organizations to help you, find you low cost housing, medical care, welfare, job training, etc... You don't have to be responsible.

Maybe I would like one but can’t afford one right now.

No, you would not survive it, read your earlier dire warnings. I think it's best that you don't reproduce. You can always adopt and avoid the process.

Maybe I want to get an abortion before the fetus becomes a baby and I become attached. An abortion is a horrible thing to go through. Giving up a child you love because you can’t afford to care for it is even harder.

I don't think you are ready for life.

If you choose to have sex, you choose to risk getting pregnant. But I suspect you'd place 100% of the blame on the man.

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Hey, I agree bodily autonomy is important...but so is financial autonomy or any kind of autonomy. To begin with, imo, the main point of pregnancy isn't a problem of bodily autonomy : it's a problem of parenthood. Compared to the problem of forced parenthood, the problem of bodily autonomy seems small in comparison in the context of pregnancy (a child will literally change your whole life permanently). Now, if pregnancy occurs, both side are forced to become parent. Maybe now everyone will understand that forced parenthood is awful, regardless of whether it's done to a man or a woman.
Put in another way : yeah, in the current law, men are above women. On a scale of 10, before women had 10/10 on rights and men had 2/10. Now men have still 2/10 but women only have 1,5/10 (of course those numbers are made up). The downgrade for women is ridiculous, but things are more equal. And obviously I don't hope things stay that way : I would like for both gender to get to 10/10 as soon as possible.

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So you're saying the situation in which woman has all the choice and man none of the choice is more equal than the situation in which neither man nor woman has any choice? Hmm...Indeed, it will be hard for us to agree with. Pregnancy is short lived but parenthood is 'eternal'. The short time of pregnancy will never be equal to a whole life of forced parenthood in my opinion, especially when you consider women have far more option than men to prevent pregnancy (don't forget that forced parenthood involve a lot of things which easily get worse than pregnancy).
But no matter. At least it seems we agree that we need both abortion for women (ie, biological abortion) and abortion for men (ie, legal abortion), which is really all that matters as far as I'm concerned. As for the whole abortion current problem? For me, it's just a great opportunity to make people realize forced parenthood is bad. In forums, in the last week, I've seen more people agreeing that "yeah, maybe forced fatherhood is not a good thing" in the last week than in the last half a year. That's why it feels like a "victory" for men's rights.

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My comment was simply to point out that these kinds of posts create a toxic atmosphere that debases the sub itself and the men's rights movement, regardless of how any of us feel about abortion.

I could engage with you in a debate on abortion, but honestly, I don't think it would go anywhere. I've learned over the years that pro-lifers and pro-choicers are both viewing this argument from two very different philosophic lenses, and that both sides are looking out for the rights of an individual, the only difference between them is which individual they are focusing on. I think that fact makes debates around abortion particularly difficult and that's what prevents people from changing their minds. . . I don't think I can change your mind, and I don't think you can change mine.

But either way, I didn't come here to debate abortion. I made comment because I care about the reputation of the MR movement and I feel posts like this debase our reputation.

[–]FuzzySpine 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

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[–]FuzzySpine 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

You're allowed to be biased, however allowing your bias to show in a comment that you're now claiming had a netural purpose is counterintuitive. Your comment's intentions as you claim were to highlight the negative aspects of discussing something that doesn't fall under men's rights in this subreddit while encouraging focus on men's rights solely. You see how easy that was for me to write a netural statement whilst not showing any bias? I could have just as easily worded that as "Your comment's intentions as you claim was to ignore the murder of innocent unborn babies and instead was to just focus on the satanic unjust treatment of men by the man hating evil feminist world."

But its clear that your comment was intended to be biased towards one side and intentionally included argumental buzzwords. You wanted to debate about abortion in the men's rights sub. You're just trying to weasel out of it by claiming that your original comment wasn't about your obviously biased vernacular, but rather the weak veil of a point that you shoehorned in it.

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From what of it I've seen so far, I don't think that's true. If anything it seems they're more focused on genuine men's issues than this sub.

I joined this sub because I don't buy the modern feminist narrative that men are privileged and have all the power. I think men are vulnerable, just like any other human being and that we have issues too that need to be dealt with but are sadly often overlooked. . . I thought that this sub would be the place where those issues are highlighted and discussed, and sometimes they are, but recently I've noticed the tone of this sub has veered more towards "Fuck feminism" rather than a discussion of actual men's issues. And what's worse is I've noticed more and more posts that give me the impression that many people posting here are bitter towards all women simply for being the same gender as feminists. . .

I've become very disappointed and disillusioned by this sub and it's made me genuinely fearful for men's rights going forward, because the kind of narrative I'm seeing posted here recently will debase the genuine men's right movement.

[–]pssandwich 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If you don't buy that narrative, you aren't going to get anywhere on menslib. And you're right- this sub is small-minded and stuck in a rut, and the majority of content on this sub doesn't accomplish anything. But menslib is working in an explicitly feminst framework, which will prevent it from getting anything done. I wish there was a place that was as capable of staying on-topic as menslib but as intellectually free as mensrights. But if you want to accomplish anything for men, I think feminism is a bigger barrier than small-mindedness.

If you're worried that this sub will debase the MRM- sometimes I worry about that too. but no one has more interest in seeing the mrm fall to pieces than menslib. A space in which feminism cannot be criticized is a space in which the mrm cannot flourish.

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this is so tricky. this is why nothing can be black and white like this.

solution a: women can abort or not abort, their decision. If man doesn’t want child, they don’t have to pay child support, and don’t get any rights to the baby.

pros: everyone gets a choice cons: excludes terms of rape and incest. The woman could choose to keep baby because she’s forced to by family members or else she’ll be kicked out/not get financial help she needs/abused (if kept for religious reasons, it’s a grey area again), and man would get away with it if they don’t want the baby they forced on them. Could take route of adoption, but again, family values can be against that. FAMILIES SUCK.

solution b: women get no choice, men get no choice.

pros: pretty straightforward, you keep it and you pay it. cons: SO. MUCH.

solution c: women get a choice, men don’t. pros: we basically don’t have to change any laws cons: inequality, rape and incest, etc. The reverse situation in choice A happens.

solution d: women get no choice, men do pros: feminists have something to fight for cons: inequality, rape and incest, etc.

So what do we do? We kind of just... cry. Hope it isn’t us, I guess. Take your birth control pills and carry condoms. Vote for the one with the least impact and work around it.

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Title	Exactly what they asked for.
Author	kireol
Upvotes	270
Comments	172
Date	May 22, 2019 3:27 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/brq55z/exactly_what_they_asked_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/exactly-what-they-asked-for.1206691 https://theredarchive.com/post/1206691

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