Feminist perspective: men’s SA cases should be an argument to advocate for feminism, not against it

AwfulUsername123 · 2023-06-20T21:57:21+00:00

The fact that men are victims of rape isn't an argument against feminism. The fact that mainstream feminists by and large downplay female-on-male rape or even deny its existence is an argument against feminism. People often talk about Mary Koss, who has repeatedly protested against recognition of female-on-male rape. I find it interesting that she regards a man raping another man to be real rape. In her mind, a man can be a rape victim, but only if the perpetrator is another man. Presumably this is because she can blame a man in that case. What about female-on-female rape? It has apparently never occurred to her that a woman can rape another woman. If you asked her about it, it might break her brain. Women who are raped by other women are also harmed by the narrative that rape is a male crime.

duhhhh · 2023-06-20T23:20:44+00:00

We are shooting to include male victims of heterosexual rape. The statistical definition of rape is controlled by feminists that deny men can be raped by women. Feminists actively block acknowledgment of males being heterosexual rape victims, support services for them, and laws to protect raped men and boys.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

NISVS 2010 showed in the past 12 months, 1.1% of men were made to penetrate and 1.1% of women were raped. Table 2.1 & 2.2 on pages 18/19.

NISVS 2011 showed in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.6% of women were raped. Table 1 on page 5.

NISVS 2012 showed in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.0% of women were raped. Table A.1 & A.5 on pages 217/222.

NISVS 2015 showed in the past 12 months, 0.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.2% of women were raped. Table 1 & 2 on pages 15/16.

Varies a bit from year to year, but pretty even overall. In both cases the four year annual percentages add up to five. The numbers for perpetrators vary a little from year to year too. Something like 79-84% of made to penetrate (nonconsensual envelopment) victims are victimized by women. Something like 96-99% of rape (nonconsensual penetration) victims are victimized by men. So in the 2010s, it averages out that a typical year has ~60% men & ~40% women as perpetrators of nonconsensual sex outside prisons rather than the 99:1 ratio discussed.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

If you don't like CDC data:

Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

and

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time: http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these five threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

/r/MensRights/comments/oc2yp0/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

Isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

g1455ofwater · 2023-06-20T22:05:22+00:00

Because feminism is a hate movement targeting men and arguing that at this point makes you willfully ignorant and completely dishonest.

iainmf · 2023-06-20T22:30:08+00:00

Feminists have denied and minimised male victims of sexual violence, especially when perpetrated by women, for decades.

Feminists in Israel and India advocated against gender neutral rape laws that would see male treated fairly.

Influential feminist academic Mary Koss stated that it is inappropriate to consider male can be victims of female rapists. She said it not be called rape, but 'unwanted contact'.

The reason male victimisation is an argument against feminism is that Feminists want to control the narrative about sexual assault and maintain that it is a 'women's issue'. This narrative can't hold up when there are large numbers of male victims.

shit-zen-giggles · 2023-06-20T20:40:30+00:00

Please read the following post and especially go through the linked sources to debunk your provably false perceptions:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uar2z4/in_light_of_the_johnny_depp_amber_heard_case_lets/

after that, you might also want to go on to read the following:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/695m34/karen_straughans_response_to_those_arent_real/

Present_League9106 · 2023-06-20T21:09:13+00:00

With all due respect, Men's Rights didn't shun Feminism; Feminism shunned Men's Rights. Go to a feminist space and advocate for male SA victims. You'll be called an MRA. Try it with friends irl, they'll shun you.

The_Squiggy · 2023-06-20T23:31:08+00:00

So why is it that men SA cases are used to advocate against feminism, when really we’re both shooting for the same thing?

SA cases aren't used to advocate against feminism, they are used to advocate against a glaring, horrible, massive disparity in the justice system. It is institutional feminism that defends these disparities being kept in place.

It's the same for most of the divorce and family law.

It's the same for the draft.

It's the same for mental health advocacy and programs.

It's the same for domestic violence.

It's the same for homelessness.

It's the same for post prison reintegration programs.

asf666 · 2023-06-20T20:45:36+00:00

With enough mental gymnastics you can make anything support your argument.

ElisaSKy · 2023-06-20T21:41:38+00:00

Mary P. Koss mean anything to you?

Feminist groups in India protesting en masse over the idea of gender-neutral rape laws being so much as discussed ring a bell?

Feminist groups are advocating against the legal and social recognition of male rape victims. And succeeding.

Though it may be more accurate to say they're advocating against the legal and social recognition of female rapists. They're more than willing to acknowledge males being raped by other males, and to cover up for females being raped by other females...

So the sex of the perpetrator seems to be the sticking point there, more than that of the victim.

Point is, they're the one trying to cover that up. Because they're covering them up, even talking about them is, in itself making an argument against covering them up, which is making an argument against feminism.

ExMuzzy · 2023-06-20T22:39:20+00:00

neither men nor women who experience SA are taken seriously through the lenses of sexist social constructs.

In my experience, feminists bring this up to dismiss men. Rape legislations in many countries can only be applied to male perpetrators. This affects both sentencing length and statistics. It is different to the difficulties of trying to prove that it happened, which I agree is a problem that both genders face.

_-Wizard-_ · 2023-06-20T22:59:49+00:00

The title hit me worse then 150pnds of c4…..

nacho-chonky · 2023-06-21T05:02:32+00:00

Feminism champions the Duluth model for DV, look it up, feminists are essentially fighting to keep male victims treated as the perpetrators no matter the circumstances

Greg_W_Allan · 2023-06-21T06:01:06+00:00

Feminists were responsible for decades of exclusion from taxpayer funded mental health services experienced by Australian male victims of child sexual abuse. Through recent royal commissions we've learned thousands have committed suicide, many of which could have been avoided had they been able to access the help they needed. Feminists and feminism will never cleanse that blood from their hands.

Current_Finding_4066 · 2023-06-22T07:42:57+00:00

We want justice for victims of false claims.

We want justice for men getting sexually assaulted by women.

And your claim that female victims of sexual assault are not believed is preposterous.

Title	Feminist perspective: men’s SA cases should be an argument to advocate for feminism, not against it
Author	makko007
Upvotes	0
Comments	73
Date	June 20, 2023 8:30 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14em9a0/feminist_perspective_mens_sa_cases_should_be_an/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-perspective-mens-sa-cases-should-be-an.1223231 https://theredarchive.com/post/1223231

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