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schwab23
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[–]MechPlasma69 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's a nice Complete Lack Of A Link you have there.
[–]mp3314 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/require-women-register-selective-service-age-18-their-male-counterparts/95pfTq6v?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
[–][deleted]57 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Link
[–]dolandoes19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I signed it, but I'd still, like many others, rather see a petition to end any sort of future draft all together, or selective service in general. We have plenty of people who sign up of their own volition here, and war is changing. We don't need tens of thousands of foot-soldiers when we have so many drones and various other tools. We just don't. I'm not saying we don't need ANYONE on the ground, but we have plenty of people who are willing to go.
This is a decent secondary solution for "equalizing" things, though.
[–]schwab235 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I totally agree
[–]th3pudding0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
100% agree on removal of the draft. I feel that as a democracy that if we can't get enough volunteers for a war effort, maybe its not a war we should be fighting in the first place...
[–][deleted]-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Success in warfare is about flexibility of response. If the military is to be able to complete its mission it needs to have the resources to be able to do so should the need ever arise. Saying that warfare is evolving and that we don't need large numbers of infantry is just plain wrong and such assumptions are poor assumptions that the US military has made in the past to catastrophic effect.
Also, drones are pretty much completely useless in an environment where air superiority is not completely uncontested or where ground forces have access to even the most basic anti-air capabilities.
It'd be great if we lived in an idealistic world where we didn't need a military or even a draft, but we don't, and trust me, no one in the military wants to serve alongside people who are forced to be there against their own will. The point of the all volunteer military is to remove the civilian population from the burden of war which we have done quite well. I think should the need ever arise a draft would be acceptable and that all people who benefit from living in the US should have to serve in some capacity. Maybe it would give people a little bit of a reality check about how good they have it.
[–]Grapeban4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But isn't democracy fundamentally undermined when there is a draft?
If a country is unable to win a war because it's people do not support that war, and are not willing to enable the country to win, is that not the people expressing a democratic will that they don't want the war?
[–]BassCreat0r-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Unless we go to war with China.
[–]orsini11385 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This has lost like 35 votes already in 2 hours, apparently. Wow.
[–]funnyfaceking4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
it's votes needed, not total votes
[–]orsini1138-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wait so you mean we NEED 19,000 votes still? Fuck!
[–]funnyfaceking5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
96,000
[–]orsini1138-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Whoops meant that.
FUCK.
Well good luck with that. Either way, we should abolish the draft in general.
[–]funnyfaceking9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
yes, of course, but a move like this is only natural, and it's a great way to stir debate about the whole issue
if women were subject to the draft, then there would be a lot more incentive to abolish the draft completely, as they are supposedly not "disposable" like we are
i support both petitions
[–]caaaaat5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why enforce more tyranny? Why not petition to eliminate?
[–]funnyfaceking14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
nothing is stopping you to create such a petition
Except the fact that I am Canadian.
nothing is stopping you from applying for citizenship
[–]caaaaat0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Except for the fact that I live in Canada...? I am not sure how serious you are being right now.
i am being facetious, but there are ways to promote your agenda without tearing somebody else's down
[–]caaaaat1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It was an honest query, no tearing intended.
[–]the_bearded_wonder0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for using the word "facetious."
[–]funnyfaceking0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
uh...you're welcome
:)
[–]the_bearded_wonder1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
A lot of people would have used "sarcastic," but sarcasm has a bite to it.
Thanks for noticing.
[–]SCCROW1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
COME ON!!! We gotta bring everybody down to the same level!!!
[–][deleted]4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
LINK????????????
[–]mp332 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]thadjohnson4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Totally forgot I had already signed this weeks ago! Ha!
[–]Agnivayu4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Personally I would prefer a petition to completely do away with the selective service.
[–][deleted]3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This brings up a question. How well are the women who voluntarily join the military doing? Are they able to keep up?
[–]SteelCrossx5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Currently, Infantry does not have a different PT test than any other MOS, with the exception of Special Forces. SF has higher standards than everyone else. Women should be able to be drafted into the Infantry without a problem, assuming things stay as they are.
[–]M1s4n7hr0p36 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How oh so wrong you are. In every manner of the word.
Edit for clarity: He's right about SF vs. Regular infantry. He's wrong about the discrepancy of physical standards. By current order women have lower standards than men across the board,. Non-infantry MOS's culturally have lower physical standards by allowing sub-standard (read: just meet the minimums) performance to fly. In the infantry if you only meet minimum standards you are regarded as a piece of shit and treated as such (and should be). Most women cannot meet the minimum male standards already. This is the primary argument (and fear) behind the outrage of troops in combat MOS's. It's not misogynist nor is it baseless.
[–]techz71 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah I feel the same way about affirmative action. Why should I get benifits or be required to hire minorities, as opposed to the best person for the job too many good people get discriminated against by this and in construction being white is a curse because if you don't work hard you will get canned, but if you are a minority you can be a bit lazier than a white man and get away with it because they have to have a certain amount of minorities hired. I believe that both men and women in the military should have the same standards for everything in the especially. If I were in a combat situation where my life was depending on someone I would like to know that that person is held to the same physical standards that I was.
[–]M1s4n7hr0p37 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ive served with women (FET if you'd like to google) in combat. It was a horrid experience wrought with inequality and outright failure to address their lack of physical and mental readiness. They never stood post. Never went further than 2k out. Never went on night patrols. Never stayed out more than 3 hours. Never carried anything but personal water sources. And generally behaved in a lackadaisical manner. We were their babysitters and everyone knew it but god forbid you said it. They were given preference for billeting and hygiene, and because of the mixed gender nature of any outpost they inhabited everyone was required to adhere to garrison-level uniform regs in theater. We couldnt speak in a manner that could be perceived as offensive to women (referring to a buddy as "ya stupid cunt" or "bitch-titted motherfucker" for example) even though it was not directed at them. Ask any sailor, soldier or Marine who served in the 80's/early 90's how the operational side of service has changed. It brings about an overwhelming focus on the wrong things (image, mannerism, sensitivity) over the important ones (performance, effectiveness, morale). I'm all for equality, but if you can't handle the heat (in this case to crass nature of combat troops and the gritty reality of land warfare) don't step in the fire.
thats very interesting. I wasnt aware of the specifics of how unequal things really were for men v women out there. Its sad to see that and it is true where the priorities are lying now adays., also thanks for serving.
[–]M1s4n7hr0p32 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Its a cultural trend thats not limited to the military. And Im just one of many man.
[–]WadeK0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The thing that sucks is that if the women were treated like the men in basic training, they would physically and mentally be able to do what the dudes do. Men who are useless get torn to shreds and molded into shape by the end. Women don't. I can physically do as many pushups as you can, but if nobody forces me to do it... then I'm not gonna fuckin' do it!
Then they send undertrained soldiers overseas and they're not able to give them combat-oriented jobs. I believe there's still (or was until recently) a policy to try and protect the delicate little flowers that are women. So now they are undertrained, don't get the experience and then when they're told to work with male soldiers they get painted as 'naturally useless'.
Force the women to meet the same standards, make them shave their heads the same to make them look less like 'women' and more like 'soldiers of the united states army', don't try to protect them from anything you wouldn't protect your male soldiers from and maybe we'll have a new group of fighters who won't get anyone killed.
I'm all for the draft, but we've got a bunch more to change if we want real equality in the military.
Yes and no. There are some incredibly hard ass women who can hack it mentally and strengthwise physically. For the reasons stated above they are few and far between. However, physiological differences, namely the nature of muscle and bone density and hormonal issues surrounding menstruation there is a profound physiological hindrance to the conditions infantry endure. Under the best of circumstances infection would occur frequently. Under the worst your uterus would be destroyed. Also, everytime Ive seen females subjected to the gear loadouts we carry standard, not even heavy loadouts required for some missions, hip fractures occur at a relatively high rate. The heart can be willing, but physiologically women's bodies are not well-equipped to handle these kinds of stresses.
Too too true. And I agree that if women were ever yo truly assimilate into the combat roles this is the way that it would have to happen, similar to the movie Starship Troopers where there is zero difference in expectation and treatment.
[–]Collective824 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No they for the most part don't, and they are cut tremendous slack in their for for push-ups.
It's all very well saying equality for women, but in this case that's only going to mean more work and more death for men. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face, in this case.
[–]CicconeYouth042 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for reminding me to sign up for selective service. I forgot, I turned 18 back in December. (I haven't registered to vote yet) I fully support selective service, for both sexes. You don't get the freedoms of this country unless you're willing to die for them. Man, or woman.
[–]mp331 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Link.
[–]Nightfalls1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Already did! But keep working on this.
[–]downvoted_by_lefties1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can't bring myself to sign that. Men are better warriors/soldiers than women. We are genetically designed that way. That is true no matter how much anti-male sentiment is out there.
[–]Bubblegum_Girl0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is one issue I completely disagree with. Too many MRAs say selective service/draft is misandry. The only reason women aren't also sent off to die is because we are not seen as fit enough for combat- nothing to do with misandry.
I don't sign petitions because that falls under the category of 'hot air', akin to 'asking nicely'.
Instead, I strike against that which I find odious in a manner within my means that balances the criteria of prudence and the efficacy by which the act brings about tangible results.
[–]Vitruvian-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not signing that.
[–]AmuseDeath19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then do what you say and go ahead and create a petition where we remove the draft. Oh that's right, you only spoke up at the mere thought of women being drafted. Figures.
[–]Vitruvian0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Petitions to the White House accomplish jack shit. As it happens, I am a man and deeply loathe the idea of being conscripted and forced to fight. But expanding this injustice to include women is exactly the wrong thing to do.
[–]lesserpoet9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can I ask why?
[–][deleted]28 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not the person who originally commented, but I'm assuming that he or she believes extending it to women is going in the wrong direction, and we should instead be petitioning to get rid of the draft all together instead of extending it to everyone. If they're not willing to do that, however, then I think extending it to women is only righteous in the name of equality. Many feminists like to argue that women and men are biologically the same (or virtually so), but I've really only seen this said in the context of giving women some sort of pleasant entitlement, never an unwanted obligation.
[–]gicstc11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Further, once 100% of the population is affected by it (instead of 50%) there will be much more force behind the movement to scrap it all together.
[–]blinderzoff5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wait...you mean when the segment of the population with the majority of registered voters is affected they might vote to change it?
It's a plan so crazy it just might work!
[–]Vitruvian5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Precisely. Upvote for you.
[–][deleted]-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I won't sign it for the same reason I won't support gay marriage.
I won't actually oppose them either, since from an equality POV, it is better than what we have now.
But I can't actively support extending government power in an area it shouldn't be in the first place.
Um...
Wut?
So....you don't support the lifting of government intervention in the personal lives of gays...but you can't support the extension of government power in inappropriate areas....huh?
[–]CyberToyger2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is no "government intervention in the lives of gays", it's simply 'government does not recognize two same-gendered people as being eligible for benefits'
Fruitylips believes that Government should have zero involvement with marriage at all, just like he/she believes that conscription shouldn't exist at all. Therefore, on principle, he/she will not vote on anything that violates those principles, even if others vote on them as part of taking an indirect route towards achieving equality.
[–]M1s4n7hr0p33 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That makes a bit more sense. Personally, I think marriage needs to find its way out of our culture (not monogamy, marriage). However, its restrictive of the rights of gay couples regardless to deny them the legal benefits of marriage while awarding it to straight couples. All things considered I could see how the same principle can be applied to both situations: less government involvement across the board is the answer.
[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is no reason for the government to be involved in marriage at all.
Like adding women to the registration rolls, extending marriage to include same sex marriage is throwing good money after bad.
We should be getting rid of male selective service registration and government involvement in opposite sex marriage.
Amazing isn't it - how easily these people take things out of context...
[–]M1s4n7hr0p30 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
On this you will have zero argument from me. The way I read your initial comment seemed like you were contradicting yourself. Another user rephrased it so the meaning was more clear.
[–]Avery171 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
fruitylips...
I agree.
[–]PapaPasta-9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's not enough that they sign up.
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