709,179 posts

Constant Hard Nos

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July 20, 2016
7 upvotes

This ended up more writing than I wanted, so I'll just keep it so I remember my state of mind in the future.

I swallowed the pill 2 months ago after 10 years of marriage and I'm still implementing. I read the sidebar, WISNIFG, NMMNG, some of the rational male and still working my way through it. Prior to this I was somewhat RP but had a lot of BP qualities - mainly getting butthurt over sex (shouting, telling her she's worthless, etc) - this is relevant because I have conditioned my wife to use sex as a weapon and she is clinging onto that weapon for dear life.

I was somewhat of a drunk captain (late bills, poor planning) and I'm starting to take control and she has responded very well to that. I plan our days/evenings meticilously, tell her what I'm doing and she oftens joins in. There is the occasional "No we must do y instead" shit test, once in front of family who were visiting where I just firmly held ground in front of everyone. After that she usually just becomes submissive to my plans, and she is honestly such a poor planner with the attention span of Dory from Finding Nemo.

I handle shit tests well to the point where I now enjoy them sometimes, swatting them mostly using A&A, Smirk or STFU - I don't feel I mastered amused mastery yet as I think I come off passive aggressive so I don't use that. Her last shark week one Saturday she was an insane shit test machine and I STFU'ed the whole day and did not engage her at all, the next morning on her own she tells me she's not gonna be as bad as yesterday, to which I just gave her a hug.

Because of 5x5 lifting and losing weight (50 lbs to a 18% BF in 4 months) I am getting constant positive comments from acquaintances, friends and family. The other day, after someone comments about me losing weight in front of her she says that I should stop because I will soon look like a toyboy (shit test, ignored (smirk), translation: "I like this but I feel nervous that other people are also liking this").

I am getting a more defined body look and she is definitely noticing that as well. The other day she was constantly getting into the bathroom trying to catch a glimpse of me while I was shaving in the shower after a good workout . She has also commented on my muscles and felt them a few times. But she is very very good at looking distant so as to not look like she wants me. She is also now wearing better clothes (e.g. low cut top, mini/micro skirts) and parades around like a horny cat (it's funny) waiting for me to comment or slap her ass and stuff like that and she seems to enjoy that immensely.

Where it gets interesting is that this very often leads to Hard Nos with a condition when initiating sex. I think she is freaking out a little at my OI and abundance mentality and she is hanging on to sex for dear life as a form of wrestling control. For three months I displayed such OI and abundance mentality that she started often looking at me with this weird look waiting for me to get mad at something and I just meh and DGAF (e.g. hard no to sex, shit tests and disrespect) and she doesn't know what to do. She knows that sex is the only thing she has I want and she wants to weaponize it to the extreme. In the past 2 weeks she probably gave me around 8 conditional hard nos but I ended up smashing through 3 times, the hard nos I didn't smash I just displayed IO and went to do my own thing. What are the conditions? such silly stuff as:

  1. Buy me a piece of jewellery (2 hard nos, smashed when I said I will never ever buy presents for sex and got off her. The next day we had it).
  2. No sex until you tell me where you were on x day (3 times, sex after).
  3. No sex until you close the curtains and the door (compliance test, I told her she can close them if she wants to, sex after).
  4. Unfriend this girl on facebook.

This last condition she keeps bringing up over and over. I just ignore that and I don't want to DEER it at all (e.g. she's just a friend, and to be fair that girl is a 9/10 bombshell). It could also be because she is just not finding me sexually appealing/alpha enough yet so she needs something to justify the sex. I made it a point to NEVER EVER say yes to any of these.

So because of the sexual tension it often feels like she is setting a massive trap to get me to initiate just to say hard no until you do x, and I'm frankly tired of this. As I said, I am realising every day that I don't need her, there is the issue of a child between us but I am slowly getting mentally checked out and I expect to be fully so probably in 2-3 months. She still thinks I am hooked to her (because of the son? because of a past BP days marriage ultimatum that I never followed through?).

So a different approach I want to try is to stop initiating and otherwise continue improving myself. Do not initiate for 2 months and let her hamster spin, if she still gives me a hard no after that I will likely just divorce without even giving the fuck me or fuck you speech because fuck this shit I deserve better.

Would not initiating be counter intuitive? Initiating is an alpha trait and I noticed that she is very responsive when I try new things in bed, on her end though it's mostly starfish so it often feels like a lot of hassle for mediocre sex.


Also... just to give some feedback and reinforce ideas in the sidebar... what DOES NOT WORK:

  1. Active dread DOES NOT WORK if you haven't truly mastered the initials levels of dread.... just so bad... don't do it guys. She freaks out at this, and tries to pay back by liking other males status's on facebook (lol) and talking to them. I in turn see this as close to the ultimate form of disrespect.

  2. Ultimatums when you're not ready to give ultimatums... if you sense that she still doesn't respect you don't toss orders around, because you will get shot down and end up worse.

TLDR; Hard nos are wearing me out, should I go zero initiation for a few months?


Post Information
Title Constant Hard Nos
Author bigcorpthrowaway
Upvotes 7
Comments 32
Date 20 July 2016 12:22 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207310
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4tqvh8/constant_hard_nos/
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Comments

[–]donerkebabplease2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

As a relative noob (4-5 months in) I'd say don't stop initiating, you seem to be doing quite well right now, keep up with the OI, stand firm, this shit aint easy, if it was everyone would be doing it.

You've been married 10 years, here you're still a noob, 1 month of reformed faggotry per year of marriage. Give it time, keep being awesome. The hamster is always spinning, you can see that for yourself in your post. Here for example -

For three months I displayed such OI and abundance mentality that she started often looking at me with this weird look waiting for me to get mad at something and I just meh and DGAF

I don't do ultimatums either, I'm pretty sure that's passive aggressive shit and comes from a place of weakness.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

That was a wall of words for a big victim puke. Ok, feel better?

It's simple really. Don't put up with bad behavior. The first rule of negotiation is know when to walk away. She makes sex transactional, you call her on it.

"I'll blow you if you close the blinds..."

"Um no."

"Well no sex"

"Alright." Hero walks out of room.

Why the fuck do you even want to deal with that. By going on some DEER tangent you're proving to her you're a whinny bitch who wants mommy to dole out the nooky.

You work on you. Keep getting awesome and value yourself more.

[–]donerkebabplease0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I feel better. Thanks.

[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any such thing as a conditional hard no. Those are shit tests/compliance tests. Just keep smashing through them. If she acts like a cunt, be OI and DGAF. It'll frustrate her, shit tests may get more intense, but be the oak. Demonstrate that you wil not be phased by this crap. She'll get the message eventually. Succeed often enough and the shit/comfort test conditional crap should go away

No sex until you buy her jewelry? This is a fun one - come home one day with a jeweled butt-plug.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

9 years ago how was it?

Did you give it this much hard thought back then? Or were you two less adversarial and more fun together.

If sex is the only focus, sex will be the prime focus and currency.

Does she want to fuck you or have to fuck you? Do you care?

You've won the battle of who could care less. Now where do you go from here? No caring at all or dialing back and making something different or closer to the beginning.

I'm not saying there isn't a balance or time for dread. But in this case, you may be over training it and reaching a point of marriage-cns fatigue.

[–]Griever1141 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

4) Unfriend this girl on facebook. This last condition she keeps bringing up over and over. I just ignore that and I don't want to DEER it at all (e.g. she's just a friend, and to be fair that girl is a 9/10 bombshell). It could also be because she is just not finding me sexually appealing/alpha enough yet so she needs something to justify the sex. I made it a point to NEVER EVER say yes to any of these.

I think this is the main problem. Jealousy. She is seeing the dread and using sex as a weapon. You nailed that. However, she is afraid and her hamster is losing its mind. Read MMSLP and continue to OI and smash shit tests. I think you need to up your game (10 second kiss, pick her up, etc) as well. Those hard no's are likely just that, shit tests. Her hamster is losing its mind... keep working. If she is doing what you say she is, she is thinking you are gonna jump ship. Which is funny, because the one thing she can do to fix it, she is causing more problems. Its like having a hole in a row boat and the solution to it is to shoot more holes in it. Hamsters....

While you are "checking out" you sound like you are approaching a main event. I think you are headed towards "fuck me or fuck you." Keep being awesome and let her shoot holes in the boat. You are continuing to improve and be the best man you can be.

1) Active dread DOES NOT WORK if you haven't truly mastered the initials levels of dread.... just so bad... don't do it guys. She freaks out at this, and tries to pay back by liking other males status's on facebook (lol) and talking to them. I in turn see this as close to the ultimate form of disrespect.

No. Active dread IS WORKING. Your words "she freaks out and goes to FB shows its working. As per Familyalpha, work on your skills. You need to give her the tingles.

Women use their only tool = sex. Men have three: time, affection and commitment. You need to keep being awesome (still attempt to include her) and remove time/affection as a result.

Re-read the sidebar to brush up on your skills.

[–]lionmenden1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

I think everyone beginning should go through a few phases to better understand their relationship with sex. They don't need to be in order, and they don't need to be long. The idea is to learn different lessons about yourself. It's like studying abroad during college. You don't have to live their forever, you just get a taste for different cultures.

Monk mode: Stop initiating, stop masturbating. If she initiates unconditionally I wouldn't decline it, you're not an actual monk. But you stop jumping through hoops to get it. The idea is to understand that you are capable of going without sex and you are more powerful than it is.

Get sex elsewhere: Stop initiating. Other people here have had affairs or prostitutes. This is not my advice as I believe this is likely to cause more problems than it fixes. My suggestion is to have sex with yourself (masturbate). The idea here is to realize that your wife is the gate keeper for sex with her, but not the gate keeper for you to have sex.

Seduce your wife: no masturbation, your only sex comes from your wife. This forces you to change your behavior and see how your behavior might influence or be mirrored by your wife. Maybe being fun instead of stoic works better?

I would try these phases out, since it sounds like you're looking to experiment and learn about yourself (and your wife's reaction to changes in yourself).

I would note that short term abstinence (a week) raises testosterone levels but longer term it lowers testosterone. Testosterone and sperm production are closely linked, and if you're not using the sperm, why would your body waste time making it (and hence testosterone). Chronic lack of sex is clinically shown to decrease testosterone, literally making you less of a man. Keep this in mind that these are short term experiments to learn from, not life choices to stick to.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Monk mode: Stop initiating

Assuming you tried this yourself. Curious as to her reaction?

[–]lionmenden1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Let me start with what I learned about myself. You get in shape and go out somewhere, women hit on you. You think "sweet, I don't need my wife, I can replace her with a younger model." This helps you take her off a pedestal and improve your confidence, but you're talking about replacing her. As in, you need a woman, you're going to have to replace this one with a new one. Like learning to hunt in the wilderness, but you still need to find food. Monk mode teaches you that you can survive without anyone but yourself. This was critical for me. It's like a zen thing where you learn you don't even need to hunt, you can actually subsist just off dew and the energy of the universe (not recommended for actual wilderness survival situations). In terms of her reaction, I think you see her shuffle through all the hamster reactions, quickly. It takes a week or two to notice anything is up. At first she doesn't notice, then almost relief that you're not bugging her. Then curiosity. Did I upset him? Wait, is he having an affair? "Hey, are you having an affair?" Did I get fat? Maybe he's thinking of having an affair. "Hey, are you...?" Maybe she starts to realize she actually does enjoy and miss sex. Maybe she gets anxious, and from there you could see more shit tests, comfort tests, sex, etc.

It definitely gets you more insight into her. It definitely changes her behavior, mostly positively but could also go negative. But I didn't and wouldn't recommend doing it for her or to change her behavior, you do it to learn something you can't learn by reading it, you have to actually realize it yourself. You're also basically neutering yourself, so consider it a short lesson and not a lifestyle.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the thoughtful reply on monk mode. I have been interested in this since swallowing the pill. I had two objectives, maybe three now after reading your reply.

  1. As you mention above, to develop a level of self actualization and independence I sorely lack. Since having sex at the age of 15, I don't remember ever going longer than 2 weeks w/o sex and most of those were on wilderness trips w/o any woman around....which is kinda cheating. My experience has been that going longer than three days gets me highly agitated. I essentially move into a fight or fuck state. So I think proving I can slay this monkey would be good.
  2. Due to my long BP ride with wife coupled with the fact that I have never let NO slow down my initiation rate, I feel I am in clear violation of Rollo's cardinal rule of relationships. I am well into DL5 and have dabbled quite a bit in DL6-8; and it is clearly working. However, I firmly believe she still thinks her sex card trumps it all.

  3. As you note above, I would find gain some insight into her as a woman and how she really views the relationship.

At this point, my MAP is moving all balls forward so I am going to punt on monk mode, but I am guessing I will have to play that card eventually.

[–]trp_dude0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

At first she doesn't notice, then almost relief that you're not bugging her. Then curiosity. Did I upset him? Wait, is he having an affair? "Hey, are you having an affair?" Did I get fat? Maybe he's thinking of having an affair. "Hey, are you...?" Maybe she starts to realize she actually does enjoy and miss sex. Maybe she gets anxious, and from there you could see more shit tests, comfort tests, sex, etc.

This

[–]Chump_No_More1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

2) Ultimatums when you're not ready to give ultimatums... if you sense that she still doesn't respect you don't toss orders around, because you will get shot down and end up worse.

Replace 'ultimatums' with 'statement of expectations'.

NEVER give an ultimatum, it's an act of desperation and the penultimate DLV.

OTOH, a statement of expectations as a high value male is always reasonable.

With one caveat... You have to actually be a high value male.

Additionally, your expectations must be made from a solid Frame, a demeanor of abundance, and calm, righteous intent.

Lastly, avoid including consequences, unless you're at the absolute top of your game, otherwise it will come off as an ultimatum.

Besides, it's better to let her hamster run off and catastrophize it's own list of consequences... less work and fun to watch.

[–]bigcorpthrowaway[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This comment is so golden and should be somewhere in the sidebar. Statements of expectations, and don't include consequences.

The female is always naturally instinctually inclined to comply to statements of expectations from her high value male, and her hamster does the work of imagining the consequences.

Just be patient. You don't have to win a war of words and appear to have the upper hand in the heat of the moment. State what you want in as few words as possible and STFU.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What you doing here? You answered yourself with the last 2 points of your post.

Up the dread. Where are you at the moment? You are 100% correct to follow the steps of dread, not to jump around all over and master each step.

You need to spend time away from her if you are not already. Keep initiating.

She is escalating her shit tests with hard no's. She is only handing over the helm to a man worthy of handling the ship.

On another note, depending on situation and personality her hard no's almost sound like LMR. Difficult to decipher without knowing the person but if it is in a playfull manner it could be that she is deploying her anti-slut defences. You know her better than us.

[–]bigcorpthrowaway[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's definitively a hard no leave me the fuck alone right now until e.g. you unfriend the chick. I can differentiate easily between LMR and hard no.

[–]redearththeory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I would do two things.

1) Impose a cost for her misbehaving with the conditional noes. For instance if she brings up unfriending someone on fb in the middle of foreplay I'd throw a sequence of condescending dismissive insults at her for being a shity boring lover. Because that's the truth and real men call a spade a spade.

2) A couple days after she fucks you with no conditions, try to do one or two of the less problematic things she wants you to do. Explain that you love her, you take care of her, and youre a team.

Carrots and sticks.

[–]SubPrimeMate0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I have been thinking of the same strategy. If the NO is being weaponized, take away the weapon. I might try it for two weeks first though...

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think she is freaking out a little at my OI and abundance mentality and she is hanging on to sex for dear life as a form of wrestling control.

If you keep pushing she will break at some point. I would keep pushing.

Buy me a piece of jewellery

I prefer to just leave cash on the dresser when I am done.

Unfriend this girl on facebook.

Basic compliance test.

It looks to me like you are right. This woman is using sex to assert power and control and it is apparently the only way she knows. Maybe you could help teach her a better way? Have her read "The Surrendered Wife" to start.

This may be one of those rare times when you actually have a "talk" with your woman. Take her to dinner and tell her in no uncertain terms that sex is not optional in your relationship. Sex is not a bargaining chip or a way to manipulate. Period. End of story. Then call her on it and I would ignore her completely for a period of time each time she tries to pull it. Fuck that!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Wait.....

Covert contract....

I do this MRP thing and get to a regular guy body fat percentage and then SURELY she will just slobber all over me...

Guuyysss

Iv'e been lifting SOOOOOO haaaaard....

Whyyyyy Wifeeeee Noooo Fuuuuuuuck meeee for meeeeee

[–]bigcorpthrowaway[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

I understand this sentiment when it is thrown here but I'm doing this for me, she's either in for the ride or she's out and I'm long past seeking any approval from her (or anyone). What's wrong with asking for advice on an MRP detail from the experienced? I like thefamilyalpha's "look at the fun side and be fun" perspective of things.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

It sounded like a big ass covert contract.

My advice?

Make the experience of being with you fun for her. If she starts giving you shit like do X before we have sex the answers are simple:

make the tasks part of having sex... she wants the blinds down? Pick her up and carry her over to the window, kissing her... tell her to put them down but get her hands busy...

She tells you about jewelry..... Honestly this is a trigger for me in a negative way ...I would ask her if she wants me to treat her like a whore.... So maybe do that or don't....

But if she is doing the things you describe... the situation is one of two things :

She is still not attracted enough to you ( for what ever reason)

Or

She is scared / nervous about loosing her control

I think they key to knowing what to do is knowing which one it is.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Make the experience of being with you fun for her

If OP starts having fun, this is a no-brainer.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Fun is hard to have when you expect it....

everyone gets performance anxiety.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thus the "IF" in my statement. He would prob need to work on his game...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

TLDR; Hard nos are wearing me out, should I go zero initiation for a few months?

First off, I didn't read the rest. If you're not valuing your words, I won't bother either.

No, always initiate, it's your attention, affection, and commitment that needs to wane.

If it helps, I have some posts on this. "She already thinks you're a fuck, own it" comes to mind. Can't really search by username anymore, but /u/ultmatecad had some wonderful stuff on being absent.

[–]bigcorpthrowaway[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Read and fire your guns :) I value my words, people here often complains about absence of TLDRs.

I remember reading those posts, I'll look for them again.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

People complain their wife doesn't suck their dick as well. We don't accomidate shortcuts brother

[–]lionmenden0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

always initiate

Some people need to take a turn at monk mode to stop chasing after sex and get their wife off the pedestal. Long term, everyone should keep initiating, but short term like he's suggesting, it can make sense to take a break.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Looks like OP has to decide for himself. Serves him right for asking randos on the internet what to do, the answer always is yes/no/maybe

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy

You sound like a fucking asshole

She knows that sex is the only thing she has I want

Your wife is only good for sex, it's the only thing you want, according to you?

That's fucked up and pitiful at the same time.

Why aren't you having fun with it, why do you spend 1,146 words (yes I plugged it into Word to get a count so I could be as specific as possible) to say pretty much nothing.

zero initiation for months? Why not act like a man and enjoy life with your wife for months you fuck?

[–]bigcorpthrowaway[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for your reply. Where I don't get it is how I can do stuff without appearing to reward bad behaviour and being too much beta bux. I reset my behaviour every night (e.g. if she declines on a day, I may not pay much attention to her for the remainder of the day and be stoic doing my own thing but I am more open to her the next day).

When she does sex I spend more time with her, going to local parks, watching a movie together, giving her hugs, etc....

I can certainly try to enjoy the next few months but what can I change in myself to remove these hard nos without shooting myself in the foot appearing too desperate?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

When she does sex

lol I don't know why but this phrasing cracked me up.

Brother, it isn't about sex or about her - it's about you. I don't think you reset your behavior, I think you carry the grudge and I think you are more lost in your head than you admit.

You should be having real fun. Picking her up and spinning her without thinking, This will lead towards tingles and sex. That isn't genuine, it's covert and as you should know, men suck at being covert, initially at least.

Pull her hair a little, I once replaced an incense with a sparkler and she was simultaneously laughing and freaking the fuck out. Have fun with all of it.

My post of 10 ways to keep your wife on her toes may help give you an idea as to how to approach this.



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