Q4RP: are there any literate RPers that have a problem with toxic masculinity as a concept?

AggressiveBeta · 2018-02-27T15:47:29+00:00

Yes. Women reward men with sex for being dominant, stoic, extremely self reliant, muscular, promiscuous, confrontational, arrogant, greedy, competitive, risk-taking, selfish, high T, pursuing higher social status, and demonstrating a strong capacity to inflict violence. These are traits that are considered to be “toxically masculine”.

There’s nothing objectively toxic about any of that. Branding that “toxic masculinity” is just a shit test. The men who fail it and accept that use it as a convenient excuse to hamster themselves into being beta providers. And women are less sexually attracted to them for it.

It has nothing to do with culture, it has everything to do with biology. And no, I’m not saying we should blame women for “toxic” masculinity. They cannot help that that is what turns them on, because it’s how they’re wired. If men want to be successful with turning on women, then that’s how they must behave. If they want to be relegated to a provider role where they are far more likely to get cucked, then they will behave the opposite way.

“Toxic masculinity” is not what’s causing men to be stressed, depressed, commit suicide at an alarming rate, have dysfunctional relationships, develop drug addictions/body image problems/poor social skills, or go shoot up schools. It’s blue pill conditioning that causes that. Women are utterly incapable of empathizing with how destructive blue pill culture is to men.

selective-autism · 2018-02-27T15:27:44+00:00

As per usual for your posts, you've front-loaded this one with condescending dismissiveness, and framed the question such that it's essentially: "Can any RPers prove they're actually not retarded by completely swallowing my vague, half-assed bare-bones sketch of this bullshit buzzword masquerading as a concept?"

It's uncanny how much the attitudes and demeanor of BPers resemble "mansplaining" when it comes to debating this idea on this forum.

WhiskersNT · 2018-02-27T15:05:59+00:00

Honest question — have you never seen posts where people see a man do something bad and then call it “toxic masculinity”?

Because the women on my Facebook seem to do this all the time. I know that isn’t what toxic masculinity is defined as, but it’s how it’s used, it’s literally used as “men are bad”. I don’t know how you think people aren’t going to have a problem with that

[deleted] · 2018-02-27T16:04:30+00:00

You're burying the points in your post in so much disrespect it's really really hard work to take it seriously. I think you'd get some real mileage out of re-evaluating that strategy. It's not the high-roading you think it is.

To answer the question I basically had to assume was at the core of this rant - I have a problem with 'toxic masculinity' as a rallying meme for misandry. I don't care about it in the way you define it, I care about what it does when amplified and twisted by commercialized feminism.

I get it its frustrating when people don't seem to understand but what you're doing here is the debating equivalent of speaking english louder and angrier instead of paying attention to a language difference.

Also your first statement is an extreme black & white statement.

MorpheusGodOfDreams · 2018-02-27T16:47:51+00:00

this post is god damn hilarious.

You expect people to get the exact minutiae of your bullshit academic sociology rooted in marxist feminism.

Then when they clearly don't give a fuck and see with their own eyes that "toxic" is simply applied to all masculinity, they call you out.

Instead of adjusting your academia to deal with reality, you withdraw and call people illiterate meanie-heads.

How emblematic of your extremist nurture over nature bullshit ideology! You ignore the fact that all masculine behavior is INTENTIONALLY taught to young men by society to exaggerate biology. This is done to properly socialize them into what the society expects of them in adulthood.

Nurture is ALWAYS built on top of nature. You cannot nurture something that is not alive, and society can only guide the biology in a positive direction. But your bullshit cult wants totalitarian control over all people, picking and choosing traits derived from Testosterone.

Further, women clearly respond positively or neutrally to most "toxic masculinity" from attractive men, while hating any demonstration of Testosterone from unattractive men. So once again, your bullshit terminology is only used to build consensus, shame, and ostracize.

The minute that the general population realizes how full of crap you are, you are finished.

S1imdragxn · 2018-02-27T15:45:00+00:00

Women complain about toxic masculinity, yet fuck the most toxically masculine men. Perhaps women shouldn't positively reinforce toxically masculine behaviour by rewarding it with sex. Feminists don't seem to be concerned about this. Ironically, they focus their vitriol on the least toxically masculine men: the niceguys™.

Salty-Bastard · 2018-02-27T19:13:34+00:00

Are there any literate RPers

and, a direct quote from you in yesterdays thread.

It's about not calling men gay simply because they enjoy reading

By your definition would you say you are practicing toxic masculinity in today's thread?

sivarias · 2018-02-27T18:34:14+00:00

Alright, despite the INCREDIBLY bad faith here. I'll bite.

I'll even play on your terms here. We'll look at the bullshit academic definition of toxic masculinity rather than the coloqueal usage of the word (which is what everyone has an actual issue with).

Toxic Masculinity (as defined by FUCKING WIKIPEDIA): The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

Toxic Masculinity (as defined by academic feminists): The belief that forcing men into classic definitions of "masculine" behavior and shaming them for there lack there of is inherently damaging to both them and society.

Why do I have a problem with the second definition? Lets look at the root words first. "Toxic" this is something that has connotations of corruption, disease, and filth. It's very word triggers a response in the reader of something that is both problematic and wrong.

When used as an adjective (which you were kind enough to point out) it describes and defines the noun it's paired with, in this case masculinity.

So what are we left with? Masculinity is described as toxic, or poisonous, with implications of corruption and everything that is foul with the world. Ignoring the academic definition, THAT IS WHAT THAT PHRASE MEANS IN LAY-MAN'S TERMS. Which, when considering the importance of communication, is kind of a big deal. So naturally when is slips into common vernacular, you see a lay-man's definition, not an academic one.

Why did I go on this rant? To show the importance of word choice, and to high-light hypocrisy.

Using the academic definition of toxic masculinity as a baseline, I'm choosing to define toxic femininity. This phrase now means "the belief that forcing women into classic feminine behaviors is bad for them and society as a whole". What do I mean by this? Why, simply that forcing women to diet themselves to be skinny, force them into skirts, telling them to not express their frustrations to the world, and that they needed to be virgins on their wedding night, or they'll be too masculine. All of the above will lead to the women who are sexual and sartorially suppressed, bulimic, passive-aggressive bitches.

But wait! Didn't feminism already cover, handle, and label all of these? Why yes, yes they did.

They called the first, "unrealistic beauty standards".

They call the second, "the fashion revolution".

They call the third, "Assertiveness training".

They call the fourth, "The sexual revolution".

The point being, that labels matter. Feminist leaders knew/know this. So they put a positive spin on breaking free from feminine stereotypes, and a negative spin on breaking free form masculine ones. This was deliberate and intentional, because you don't come by a phrase like "toxic masculinity" by accident, and any defense of "that's not what it means" is frankly disingenuous at best, and downright misleading at worst.

Please take your bullshit elsewhere.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2018-02-27T14:58:03+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a thing, like getting beat up for wearing "faggy" clothes like rainbow colored or pink. Or not driving "masculine enough" cars (you're a fag if you have a Prius.) Or not being a "real man" and manning up and saving that hoe.

My problem with it is that not following the fragile toxic masculine image leads to inceldom and social rejection. Chicks dig status, they want whoever is on that throne. And if you're sitting there with a dildo up your ass you're gonna be out quick

Taipanshimshon · 2018-02-27T15:33:55+00:00

Nah man. There are only illiterate RPers OR those with no problem with masculinity.

Just like there are no literate Bloops

[deleted] · 2018-02-27T17:05:36+00:00

Are there any that have actual objections with that concept that aren't based on having barely any reading comprehension?

Trying to have men avoid expressing toxic masculinity does not actually help them

DeepCrimsonPill · 2018-02-27T18:25:09+00:00

If women reward "toxic masculinity", it isn't toxic, its just masculinity.

Women punish vulnerability, weakness, and low status while rewarding men with a violent, aggressive edge. Even The Blue Pill generally despises these types of men, regardless of what they say. How do they expect something like virgin shaming to end when not even they sympathize, even on an abstract level, with male virgins?

Until the day the effiminate, shy nerd is as attractive as the huge, confident jock, masculinity will always be desired, and its negative side effects are just a natural side effect. There's no point in trying to change what can't be changed, so we should stop pretending "toxic masculinity" is something we need to fix.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-02-27T14:56:09+00:00

Shitpost. Oh yes, I can just feel the good faith emanating from this post. You're essentially calling Red Pillers stupid and moronic for saying "um, masculinity isn't toxic" and denigrating them once again.

You're not open to debate, discussion, or explanation here. This is a ragebait post. This is a post where you come along with a stick and poke Red Pillers in the eyes. You posted this to piss Red Pillers off, not to get honest good faith responses or to engage in good faith. The mods should remove it. They won't, but they should.

Dubslav_von_Chekem · 2018-02-27T16:00:59+00:00

The regulatory behaviors supposed to be toxic have an important social role.

First of all, toxic masculinity creates a duality and opposition which isn't there. We don't have toxic masculinity and healthy masculinity. We have a variety of expressions for the same underlying traits. Some expressions we term toxic and some healthy. But the root of both behaviors is often the same masculine impulse, and the behavior is either adaptive or maldaptive based on the environment and on the context. If we kill the root, we throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is like people who criticize iPhone slave labor but praise the cheapness of smartphones. They are both intricately tied to the same root process.

Secondly, take your example of shaming men for having feelings. Men should be shamed for expressing their feelings because men are violent and angry creatures. Encouraging the free expression of such tendencies would lead to anarchy. However, for each shaming behavior, there is also supposed to be a reward behavior.

Those who hurt most from "toxic masculinity" are those who are sensitive enough to feel the shame, but not in tune to feel pleasure from male social rewards. However, we should not try to change the behavior of the contented vast majority to suit the needs of a tiny minority. That is not a pragmatic use of resources, because every act of social engineering comes with a vast blood tax if it is to take. If we kill 1 billion to recover 1 million incel lives (our new methods will probably not be 100% efficient either), this was a tremendous waste of human resources.

alreadyredschool · 2018-02-27T15:35:06+00:00

Yes, the name is retarded.

You won't see resistance of you fight self image issues of women caused by anorexic models by calling it unrealistic body standards or body positivity. Now go full retard and call it HAES health at every size or fighting fat shaming and suddenly even a liberal place like reddit calls you retarded.

Tell a thin girl that her weight is toxic and she will feel attacked, raise her defense and no mind is changed.

Yall know where I am going with this. So stop using that stupid name, that stupid way to fight it and you could make some progress.

Also you will lose less interest in the topic by not having to talking about what it actually means. If daesh doesn't manage to stay in the news on top then a small topic of feminism won't manage it either.

And it's so fucking ironic that it's mostly feminists a movement that forbids words like "fireman" or bossy don't understand the impact a word like toxic masculinity could have. Fuck you don't even have to understand it just open your eyes. Or think about why you had to make this thread. Or when you read some of the opposing posts who say that you just want to mock them, do you think this happens because the way you write is stupid i.e. you have no idea how to convince people with arguments or do you think that this poster suffers from TM?

Wallstreet3 · 2018-02-27T17:52:00+00:00

'Toxic' Masculinity is not toxic. Societal and by societal I mean female attitudes toward masculinity is toxic.

'Toxic' Masculinity is catnip to women until they get the epiphany and suddenly its 'toxic'. Up until that point it it made them a veritable sauna down there (still does which is why we have the AF/BB dynamic that plague women like the Madona-Whore complex plagues men).

'Toxic' masculinity is nothing more than a reflection of female sexual response. And 'toxic' masculinity is a shit test. Women want men who are naturally alpha to be alpha and natural betas to be natural betas.

In other words, men should know their fucking place. Alpha is for fucking, beta is for fucking his wallet.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-02-27T19:57:43+00:00

Sure, like most feminist concepts, it has a definition that is hard to argue against.

However, the main way I see people use it is as a way to say "Male specific problems are a result of men being toxic. They should get their act together!"

Basically, it's attributing problems to individual men instead of any sort of social structure. Ideally, men should just be more like women.

This article is a good example:

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a18207600/mass-shootings-male-entitlement-toxic-masculinity/

The problem at hand here isn’t that shooters are mentally disturbed. After all, 23 percent of U.S. women have a diagnosable mental illness (compared to only 16.8 percent of men), and they do not go around shooting people. The problem is that some men do not have the coping skills to deal with the fact that everyone does not think that they are special. Everyone does not want to employ them just because they happen to exist. Sometimes, even people who are very good at their jobs get fired, and that’s something we all need to deal with.

Teach that as a sign of masculinity. Teach that healing, not killing, is something powerful you can do as a man. Teach your sons to be gentle as they go through life. Then I think we might begin to see the end of this problem.

It's the go-to answer for everything. Why don't men talk about feelings? Could it be because they're raised almost exclusively by women in a learning environment that statistically favors women? Could it be that maybe men need to be approached differently than women when opening up? Nope! Toxic masculinity!

Why do men commit suicide than women? Toxic masculinity! They're too manly and proud to talk about their problems! Should we discuss how society as a whole responds to a man who's going through a difficult period? Nope! He should deal with it like women do. Society is fine. Men are the broken ones.

exit_sandman · 2018-02-27T15:31:23+00:00

Let's just accept the motte-definition of "toxic masculinity" for a second (which include ignoring the problems that come with its acceptance, like /u/DarkLord0chinChin has pointed out): Even then it would be a bullshit concept because feminists tend to use its bailey-definitions all the time, i.e. redefine it as they see fit whenever it suits them.

It's like with comparable bullshit concepts like, say, mansplaining: the motte-definition of mansplaining describes a situation where a man who has no deeper insight into (oftentimes not even any real clue about) a particular subject explains it at length to a woman, simply because he thinks he's more competent by virtue of being male. Basically Dunning-Kruger with a sexist bent. The bailey-definition feminists use is "a man explaining something to a woman and the woman doesn't like it for whatever reason".

Another problem with toxic masculinity is that is is quite misandrist in its own right; because it operates under the assumption that there's something fundamentally wrong with stuff that's not typically masculine (not surprising since we're talking about feminism here).

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No_English_Well · 2018-02-27T17:43:38+00:00

Of course if you have to tell someone that the way they are is “Toxic” of course they will have a probleme with it, especially when you don’t seem to really undurstand when it comes from, so you stomp a catchy name on it so people agree with you

Aren’t the bluepiller the ones who strongly oppose awalt? I’m interested to one of you explain to me how they see one as a god tactics and not the other one.

abaxeron · 2018-02-27T18:24:11+00:00

I'll unwrap the fallacies of the concept of Toxic Masculinity through the article in Geek Feminism wiki that you yourself linked some comments ago.

"The pervasive idea of male-female interactions as competition, not cooperation" - "Male-female interactions as cooperation" is the core idea of traditionalism. This example doesn't make any sense.

"pervasive idea that men cannot truly understand women, and vice versa--and following, that no true companionship can be had between different sexes." - Half a century ago, women were damaging their throats screaming on top of their lungs that the idea that men cannot truly understand women - is harmful first and foremost and overwhelmingly to WOMEN. Therefore, this argument cannot be viewed as made in good faith, and this example contradicts the overall definition of toxic masculinity ("one of the ways in which Patriarchy is harmful to men").

"The expectation that Real Men are strong, and that showing emotion is incompatible with being strong. Anger is either framed as the exception to the rule, or as not an emotion." - This example is constructed against a TV trope of Jerk Jock. This TV trope is not based in reality simply because in reality, the violent bullying trouble-makers are usually non-White, non-atheist, and non-Christian. Finally, the ability of men to better process their stress and possess greater physical strength - is not socially constructed, but a biological fact.

"the idea that a Real Man cannot be a victim of abuse, or that talking about it is shameful" - One of the common talking points of homophobes 20 years ago (that is still existent in some cultures) is that male gay demographic is overwhelmingly infested with pedophiles. The same argument was traditionally used in many nations as justification to criminalize male same-sex relationships altogether. Talking about your victimization is naturally shameful and is often used by feminists as explanation for why so few victims of rape come forward and speak up. Therefore, this example has nothing to do with masculinity.

"the expectation that Real Men are keenly interested in sex, want to have sex, and are ready to have sex most if not all times" - Literally doesn't exist anywhere in common culture outside of suppressed feminist wet fantasies. The fact that men on average tend to have higher sex drive than women is not socially constructed.

"The idea that Real Men should be prepared to be violent, even when it is not called for... a common response to women's tales of experiencing street harassment is for a man who's listening to say, "If I was there, I would have punched [the harasser]." - Since the concept of toxic masculinity is often referred to as applicable first and foremost to American culture, its prevasive idea is the exact opposite: "sticks and stones"; don't respond to words with violence. Why would a feminist state something opposite of reality? - Because feminists are dishonest compulsively lying cunts.

"in real life it is widely expected that a man would abandon his pregnant girlfriend" - Stopped reading there. If the author has a problem with the American Black community, then this problem should not be reframed as occuring with the American male gender.

"The myth that men are not interested in parenting, and are inherently unsuited to be single parents" - Perpetrated almost solely by women in Anglosphere (from Caroline Norton all the way to National Organization for Women). If the author has a beef with Islamic culture, it should be aimed accordingly. In Denmark, 1 in 4 single-parent households is headed by father.

"Emasculation: ...interest in one's personal looks, cosmetics, dressing up, fashion" - I thought cosmetics and fashion were tools of oppression?!!!! O_____O How can lack of interest in tools of oppression be harmful?!

"being emotional, expressing emotion, crying" - Men express emotions just fine; inability to read them is sign of psychopathy; desire to watch men crying is sign of sadism.

"appreciating "frivolous" things such as sugary "girly" drinks, romantic styles, cute animal videos , romcom flicks" - Bronies. I mean, one case when men created an entire fandom around a show marketed at girls, and women lost their shit over it.

"understanding women, being sympathetic" - Repetition is reduntant.

"being silly, giddy" - Skaters.

"needing help, not-knowing" - hwat. "Not knowing" is a feminine trait now?!

CONCLUSION:

The concept of toxic masculinity does not exist because the definition of toxic masculinity does not exist. The proper definition must not be a bunch of self-contradictory emotionally charged bullshit.

[deleted] · 2018-02-27T18:38:15+00:00

The people that deride "toxic masculinity" are the same people that would run to the most toxically masculine man they know for protection and resources if things in society ever got really, really bad.

AstuteBlackMan · 2018-02-27T20:08:33+00:00

Why do you assume only RP or men don't understand toxic masculinity? From what I see general people don't understand it either and a Great deal of women don't.

mistercheeez-o____O- · 2018-02-27T20:26:20+00:00

The idea that any traits, that are categorized as masculine (rightfully), can be inherently toxic is baseless. It removes all context from the equation.

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-02-27T21:01:27+00:00

I think toxic masculinity did nothing wrong

MrButtholePoopy · 2018-02-27T21:48:33+00:00

toxic masculinity defined: being completely serious and telling a man he shouldn't cry. have feelings or express them. calling men fags or bitches because they takes care of themselves, moisturize their faces or even whole bodies, showers more than once a week, manscapes.

anything that basically puts down another man for being who he is because it doesn't act the way you think a man should act is toxic masculinity in my eyes.

a man is someone respects himself and others. is strong(not physically though being physically strong doesn't disqualify you). being a man means accepting yourself for who you are and owning it. being willing to stand your ground.

i think those are all limited views but a good base for what it means to be a man.

S1imdragxn · 2018-02-27T15:38:17+00:00

“Gender norms that hurt men”

Is an unsupported claim. If society pushes guys to be more emotional and “queer” to the point of a trend, and I’m the totally opposite kind of guy

Isn’t that still a male being harmed because of a cultural attitude?

I’ve loved and lived by the stoic philosophers way before RP but now stoic is a bad word a shaming word. Aren’t y’all being toxic towards me now?

The real and only question we have to ask is

“According to who’s morality?”

Toxic masculinity as a feminist concept is based on leftist morality and is not objective

Title	Q4RP: are there any literate RPers that have a problem with toxic masculinity as a concept?
Author	BiggerDthanYou
Upvotes	1
Comments	108
Date	February 27, 2018 2:51 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/80mzfu/q4rp_are_there_any_literate_rpers_that_have_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-are-there-any-literate-rpers-that-have-a.263441 https://theredarchive.com/post/263441

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